WHAT IF: Stan Lee wasn't working at Marvel/Atlas Comics in 1961? 2 2

[Prince Namor]

In reality, I question what Stan Lee really did for comics as an artform AND even as a viable sales IP.

They made a big budget Superman movie in 1978. Stan Lee couldn't GET a big budget superhero movie made. It didn't really happen for Marvel until Avi Arad and Kevin Feige put Iron Man together in 2008. (Though Blade from 1998, realistically counts. It's still 20 years later, and not a superhero though).

DC was superior to Marvel in seeing the comic book as an artistic and creative artform. DC outsold them in the 60's and created better comics in the 70's, 80's, and 90's.

New Gods is better than anything Marvel did in that time period 1971-73 and maybe even until Starlin basically did his homage to it with Thanos. Kamandi- the Demon... just those two books surpass most of what Marvel did in the same time period.

Adams and O'Neil's Green Lantern Green Arrow is much more realistic and 'hip' than the silly drug story in Spider-man.

Wein and Wrightson's Swamp Thing, the Jim Aparo Spectre's, Grell's Warlord (man, I wish Cockrum would've stayed on the LoSH)... Alan Moore's Swamp Thing, Grant Morrison's Doom Patrol...

DC gave us Watchmen, Dark Knight Returns, Sandman and all the Vertigo Comics, Batman Year One, Preacher, Y the Last Man... Elseworlds...

Marvel just followed the same Stan Lee method... repackage someone else's idea - call it your own - and convince the Marvel Zombies that it's the greatest thing they'll ever read!

Marvel sold more, which makes no difference to me. DC had better comics, stories, and variety.

I don't need a cheerleader to tell me what's good. I was able to do that on my own.

[Unca Ben]

On 2/22/2024 at 7:15 PM, Prince Namor said:

Fact: Stan Lee stole CREDIT and PAY from those artists.

You can debate everything else all you want. It's an indisputable fact. 

Bob Kane: Vilified. (At least he paid the guys he stole credit from - and in the END admitted they deserved credit).

Stan Lee: Worshipped. (Yep. He was the promoter that Kane wasn't).

And yet Steve Ditko, the AynRandian that he was, never mentioned pay being stolen from him by Stan. 

He did mention credit, which is why he was credited with plotting ASM starting around ish 25 (?). 
When Stan said that he wished Ditko would come back, Steve did mention he would if Martin Goodman paid him the royalties that he was due.  This had to do with Spidey merchandising, not a lack of payment for plotting. 
In his essays, Ditko has said he was fairly compensated at Marvel for his Work-for-hire.  That was not his bone of contention with Stan.

[shadroch]

So it's 1961, and Stan has left Marvel.  Goodman grabs another of his seemingly inter-changeable relations to man a zombie comic division where long-time journeymen like Kirby and Ditko keep putting out six-page schlock.

An all-male Challengers homage attempts to reach the moon and gains powers but the story is quickly forgotten.  As is a cute story about a kid getting bit by a Spider.                          Stan heads to Hollywood, hoping to make it big in movies.  Months later, a young writer named Mel Brooks introduces Stan to his friend Walt, who is looking for new talent. 

Kirby doesn't get along with his new boss and leaves to do covers for Treasure Chest for a decade before failing eyesight makes full-time work hard. 

Ditko keeps doing what he does ,and few notices when he cuts back on his work. 

Jim Shooter sends a script to DC, ending in the circular file.  He ends up playing for the Washington Generals for a few years before opening a coffee shop.

Sterenko ends up a professional magician, Chris Claremont takes a job teaching literature at a women's college, and John Bryne ends up a goalie for a semi-pro team in Kitchener.  Roy Thomas, Berni Wrightson, and Mike Kaluta open a head shop in Brooklyn where a young Phil Seuling discovers an underground comix.  Steve Borock, like most of his generation, outgrows comics at puberty and formed an all-kazoo Dead cover band before settling down in Marin County.

Many fans try to organize early shows but nothing comes of them.  A few years later, a teenager in Denver joins the Air Force and is in Omaha when the world's greatest collection is set out to the curb by the Church family.

Edited February 23 by shadroch

[Aman619]

On 2/23/2024 at 5:05 PM, shadroch said:

So it's 1961, and Stan has left Marvel.  Goodman grabs another of his seemingly inter-changeable relations to man a zombie comic division where long-time journeymen like Kirby and Ditko keep putting out six-page schlock.

An all-male Challengers homage attempts to reach the moon and gains powers but the story is quickly forgotten.  As is a cute story about a kid getting bit by a Spider.                          Stan heads to Hollywood, hoping to make it big in movies.  Months later, a young writer named Mel Brooks introduces Stan to his friend Walt, who is looking for new talent. 

Kirby doesn't get along with his new boss and leaves to do covers for Treasure Chest for a decade before failing eyesight makes full-time work hard. 

Ditko keeps doing what he does ,and few notices when he cuts back on his work. 

Jim Shooter sends a script to DC, ending in the circular file.  He ends up playing for the Washington Generals for a few years before opening a coffee shop.

Sterenko ends up a professional magician, Chris Claremont takes a job teaching literature at a women's college, and John Bryne ends up a goalie for a semi-pro team in Kitchener.  Roy Thomas, Berni Wrightson, and Mike Kaluta open a head shop in Brooklyn where a young Phil Seuling discovers an underground comix.  Steve Borock, like most of his generation, outgrows comics at puberty and formed an all-kazoo Dead cover band before settling down in Marin County.

Many fans try to organize early shows but nothing comes of them.  A few years later, a teenager in Denver joins the Air Force and is in Omaha when the world's greatest collection is set out to the curb by the Church family.

so many possibilities in this alternate universe!

[Aman619]

here's one:  Martin Goodman chooses Kirby, his top guy, to replace Stan.  Kirby runs the show, and soon has little time to draw anymore, bogged down on day to day editing and publishing stuff. But, the money is good for the family so he stays!  Eventually, as happen, he has to make business decision, fire artists, delegate everything and as the company man, takes a hard line of their freelance rates and all the other stuff Greedy Stan was trashed for.  And takes credit not only for the early stuff he created and plotted and drew, but everything from then on that he had a hand in.  Ends up the face of Marvel, and while a big success, sometimes he wishes Stan had stayed and he remained a full time creator and artist that everyone liked, and not the focal point for all criticism of the plantation system he runs for new owners every few years.  That would be a great What If issue!

[Aman619]

you know, walk a mile in another mans shoes and see things from the other side!

[shadroch]

On 2/22/2024 at 9:07 PM, Prince Namor said:

Fact: Stan Lee stole CREDIT and PAY from those artists.

FACT:  BEARS BEAT BEETS

[Unca Ben]

On 2/22/2024 at 7:57 PM, Prince Namor said:

Yeah, you wouldn't have had the 'Marvel Age of Comics', but who knows?

Jack's Monster Books sold better than anything Marvel published leading up to that time... who's to say his Superhero stuff wouldn't have worked?

Stan had ZERO success as a writer in the business for 20 years leading up to 1960.

Kirby had multiple hits... Captain America was a Million selling comic book when it was first released, Boy Commandos sold over a MIllion Copies a month (DC's third best selling title at the time), Young Romance and Young Love sold two million copies per month... and THEN, in 1956, his Challengers of the Unknown saw great success, going from 4 of 7 issues in Showcase to it's own title in just over a year*. The Flash, who showed up in issue #4 (two months before), credited with jump-starting the Silver Age, took 2 1/2 years to get his own title.

That doesn't even count Fighting American, which is probably my favorite Kirby book of the pre-Silver Age and the closest thing to a Marvel Silver Age book before such a thing existed.

So who's to say what would've happened?

Did Lee bring out the best in Kirby and Ditko? Maybe. Then again, maybe he muted what could have been an even more fertile, creative period. 

Remember, during the 60's, those books didn't really sell compared to the big DC titles. In 1966, Metal Men was still outselling Amazing Spider-man by 50,000 copies a month. By 1969, ASM was still Marvel's best seller, FINALLY breaking the Top 10, but still outsold by Lois Lane by 20,000 copies a month and Superboy by 100,000.

That is easily Marvel's best showing of the decade.

Kirby's Jimmy Olsen outsold Lee's Fantastic Four in 1972 by over 50,000 copies a month.

Marvel's ascension to the #1 publisher had more to do with DC's failed 25 cent experiment (for a FULL year) and Marvel's reprint GLUT (as much as 40% of their line of comics, going from 355 books to 532 in one year - than anything creative they did.

As big of a logistical scheduling mess as the post-Lee editorship was, they SOLD more comics in BULK. The individual books went down for the whole decade - from the time Kirby left (Lee still wrote for 2 more years - where was the magic then?) until the end of the decade.

FF went from 285,000 to 177,000

ASM from 322,000 to 258,000

Avengers from 217,000 to 162,000

Captain America from 225,000 to 116,000!!!

Hulk from 222,000 to 171,000

Daredevil from 212,000 to 111,559!!!

Iron Man was so bad they didn't even file reports

X-Men got cancelled.

“Stan had ZERO success as a writer in the business for 20 years leading up to 1960.”  
-I’d say keeping the comic book arm of Goodman’s publishing company afloat from the ‘40s thru thru rough 50s was a success. No one is denying Kirby’s success. Yet, how long did Simon & Kirby’s company last?  A few issues? And were all Kirby’s successes up till then done in collaboration with Joe Simon?  Seems Kirby did best with a collaborator.

It appears to me you were not buying comics during this time. I apologize in advance if I’ve got this wrong, but you write all this as if it were someone judging this stuff after the fact and that circulation numbers were the primary indicator of a book’s or company’s popularity. 

They’re not.

Stan has his finger on the pulse of pop culture back then. And pop culture responded in kind.
Visits to the Marvel office by folks like Country Joe and the Fish and by Fredrico Fellini (Stan accepted Fellini’s invite and stayed at one of Fellini’s villas when visiting Italy.  Fellini accompanied Stan to a Broadway show).

Frank Zappa’s Mothers of Invention advertised “We’re Only in it for the Money” album in full page Marvel ads.  So did Janis Joplin and Big Brother and the Holding Company with their album “Cheap Thrills”.   Why would they do that, unless the counter-culture they were reaching wasn't heavily into Marvel Comics?

Our local television station scheduled the cartoon Marvel Super Heroes to air right before The Monkees T.V. show.
For many years in the mid-to-late sixties and early seventies, Marvel swept the ACBA awards year after year.

Paul McCartney wrote a song about some of the more esoteric Marvel Characters.
“The lyrics refer to the Marvel Comics characters Magneto, Titanium Man, and Crimson Dynamo. Magneto was created by Stan Lee and Jack Kirby, and the others were by Lee and Don Heck. McCartney discovered the characters in comics bought on a Jamaican holiday in 1975.”

“Yes, that’s about Marvel Comics. When we were on holiday in Jamaica, we’d go into the supermarket every Saturday, when they got a new stock of comics in. I didn’t use to read comics from eleven onwards, I thought I’d grown out of them, but I came back to them a couple of years ago. The drawings are great. I think you’ll find that in twenty years’ time some of the guys drawing them were little Picassos. I think it’s very clever how they do it. I love the names; I love the whole comic book thing.”
-Paul McCartney, Paul McCartney In His Own Words, Paul Gambaccini
 

I didn’t live near a big city, but I’d bet those of us who grew up in the northeast at the time would tell you that the Comic Conventions starting up were very Marvel-centric, given Marvel’s relatively small market share.  Marvel was largely responsible for the growing comic book Fandom at the time.

Anybody who was there at the time want to chime in and correct me if I’m wrong?  I would be glad to hear it.  

Articles in Eye magazine (that I referenced earlier), The Village Voice, college campus newsletters, UC Santa Cruz, etc., etc., etc., all extolled the virtues of Marvel Comics.  Letters from fans that started Marvel Comics Chapters on their college campuses were numerous.

And so on and so on.
 

To evaluate popularity by circulation numbers is like viewing one color in a rainbow.  An inaccurate depiction of what was happening.
 And yeah, I bought that first Jimmy Olsen comic by Kirby.  A lot of Marvel fans did.  It was Kirby’s first work after leaving Marvel.  I also bought a bit of the 4th world stuff.  So did a lot of other Marvel fans.  A lot of folks made fun of Kirby’s dialogue.  And rightfully so (my opinion).

Edited February 23 by Unca Ben

[Unca Ben]

On 2/22/2024 at 9:55 PM, Prince Namor said:

In reality, I question what Stan Lee really did for comics as an artform AND even as a viable sales IP.

They made a big budget Superman movie in 1978. Stan Lee couldn't GET a big budget superhero movie made. It didn't really happen for Marvel until Avi Arad and Kevin Feige put Iron Man together in 2008. (Though Blade from 1998, realistically counts. It's still 20 years later, and not a superhero though).

DC was superior to Marvel in seeing the comic book as an artistic and creative artform. DC outsold them in the 60's and created better comics in the 70's, 80's, and 90's.

New Gods is better than anything Marvel did in that time period 1971-73 and maybe even until Starlin basically did his homage to it with Thanos. Kamandi- the Demon... just those two books surpass most of what Marvel did in the same time period.

Adams and O'Neil's Green Lantern Green Arrow is much more realistic and 'hip' than the silly drug story in Spider-man.

Wein and Wrightson's Swamp Thing, the Jim Aparo Spectre's, Grell's Warlord (man, I wish Cockrum would've stayed on the LoSH)... Alan Moore's Swamp Thing, Grant Morrison's Doom Patrol...

DC gave us Watchmen, Dark Knight Returns, Sandman and all the Vertigo Comics, Batman Year One, Preacher, Y the Last Man... Elseworlds...

Marvel just followed the same Stan Lee method... repackage someone else's idea - call it your own - and convince the Marvel Zombies that it's the greatest thing they'll ever read!

Marvel sold more, which makes no difference to me. DC had better comics, stories, and variety.

I don't need a cheerleader to tell me what's good. I was able to do that on my own.

Lots of opinions.

[Unca Ben]

On 2/22/2024 at 9:55 PM, Prince Namor said:

 

Adams and O'Neil's Green Lantern Green Arrow is much more realistic and 'hip' than the silly drug story in Spider-man.

Wein and Wrightson's Swamp Thing, the Jim Aparo Spectre's, Grell's Warlord (man, I wish Cockrum would've stayed on the LoSH)... Alan Moore's Swamp Thing, Grant Morrison's Doom Patrol...

DC gave us Watchmen, Dark Knight Returns, Sandman and all the Vertigo Comics, Batman Year One, Preacher, Y the Last Man... Elseworlds...

 

And who did these writers emulate?  It certainly wasn't the 1960's DC writers like Jack Schiff, Otto Binder, Edmond Hamilton, E. Nelson Bridwell or Bill Finger.  They wrote comic books geared for children as per National's dictate. 

It was Stan Lee who brought relevance to comics that greatly expanded comic book readership to college kids and older.  DC was the one who copied Marvel's (and Stan's) success at that point.

Edited February 23 by Unca Ben

[SpineTic]

On 2/23/2024 at 5:46 PM, shadroch said:

FACT:  BEARS BEAT BEETS

[Unca Ben]

On 2/23/2024 at 2:46 PM, shadroch said:

FACT:  BEARS BEAT BEETS

[Prince Namor]

On 2/24/2024 at 5:44 AM, Aman619 said:

you know, walk a mile in another mans shoes and see things from the other side!

Or face the facts in reality, that Stan Lee stole CREDIT and PAY from those artists.

Edited February 24 by Prince Namor

[Prince Namor]

On 2/24/2024 at 6:18 AM, Unca Ben said:

“Stan had ZERO success as a writer in the business for 20 years leading up to 1960.”  
-I’d say keeping the comic book arm of Goodman’s publishing company afloat from the ‘40s thru thru rough 50s was a success. No one is denying Kirby’s success.

Yes, at this point in the conversation, it's best that you steer clear of the 'creativity' discussion, but it seems weird you'd instead angle it to try and focus on Stan's nepotism employment.

See, Lee didn't keep Atlas afloat. It was a boom time in comics. And during the Atlas success, Stan did less than ever. 

If you want to learn the real history, read more here: http://timely-atlas-comics.blogspot.com Dr. Michael J. Vassallo's blog is most even handed and fair document of those years.

Alan Sulman actually RAN the bullpen. Stan was an overseer who was the go to between Goodman and everyone else.

Hank Chapman, Paul S. Newman, Don Rico, Carl Wessler, Al Jaffee, Daniel Keyes, Robert Bernstein... They had a bullpen of writers who did 95% of those stories. Stan focused on his repeated storylines in his dumb blonde books mainly and farmed out writing talent from 'Writer's Digest' to come up with ideas. 

On 2/24/2024 at 6:18 AM, Unca Ben said:

Yet, how long did Simon & Kirby’s company last?  A few issues?

Less than a year. Post-Wertham was a tough time in comics.

On 2/24/2024 at 6:18 AM, Unca Ben said:

And were all Kirby’s successes up till then done in collaboration with Joe Simon?  Seems Kirby did best with a collaborator.

What does that have to do with anything? Joe Simon, like Stan Lee didn't exactly set the world on fire in comics outside of what they did in their Kirby years, yet Jack was a fountain of creativity whoever he worked with.

On 2/24/2024 at 6:18 AM, Unca Ben said:

It appears to me you were not buying comics during this time....

Stan has his finger on the pulse of pop culture back then...

The Monkees...ACBA...Paul McCartney...

Again. Pivot away from 'creativity'. Smart.

Has nothing to do with Stan Lee stole CREDIT and PAY from those artists.

On 2/24/2024 at 6:18 AM, Unca Ben said:

I didn’t live near a big city, but I’d bet those of us who grew up in the northeast at the time would tell you that the Comic Conventions starting up were very Marvel-centric, given Marvel’s relatively small market share.  Marvel was largely responsible for the growing comic book Fandom at the time.

Anybody who was there at the time want to chime in and correct me if I’m wrong?  I would be glad to hear it.  

Fandom existed and was growing before the 'Marvel Age of Comics'. Fact.

And again, has nothing to do with any of this. 

On 2/24/2024 at 6:18 AM, Unca Ben said:

And yeah, I bought that first Jimmy Olsen comic by Kirby.  A lot of Marvel fans did.  It was Kirby’s first work after leaving Marvel.  I also bought a bit of the 4th world stuff.  So did a lot of other Marvel fans.  A lot of folks made fun of Kirby’s dialogue.  And rightfully so (my opinion).

Here's someone's opinion on it that I respect more than yours:

HARLAN ELLISON MUSING ON FORVER PEOPLE #1 released Dec 1, 1970.

"Great writers respect great writing" ::

Dear Editor:

Just to add a few words to the already awesome mound of praise (one might term it a “mountain of judgment,” had one a way with clever nomenclature) surely deluging you, my compliments on the first issue of Jack Kirby’s The Forever People.

In recent memory only Deadman, Enemy Ace and Bat Lash seem to match this strip for innovation and success.

Which probably means — if we are use as yardstick, the commercial failures of these high-water marks of quality continuity — The Forever People is too good for the average comic audience.

Its power and inventiveness display the Kirby charisma at its peak. Every panel is a stunner. Potentially, it appears to be the richest vein of story material National has unearthed in years.

One hopes Kirby will be given total free rein, that he will be allowed to ride his dreams wherever they take him, for the journey is a special one, and we get visionaries like Kirby only once in a generation, if we’re terribly lucky.

To constrain him, force him to fetter himself with the rules and rags of previous comics experience, would be to dull the edge of his imagination.

After the many false starts of National efforts in the past five years, at last it seems you’ve struck the main route. That it should be Kirby — at the top of his form — that worked point-scout, is not surprising. He has long been master of the form, and in The Forever People, it seems he’s found his métier.

Best wishes and prayers for a long, long life for The Forever People.

Till now, all the flack bushwack about this being the Golden Age of Comics has fallen tinnily on us; but with Kirby in the saddle and The Forever People casting its wondrous glow, you now have leave to bang the drums.

— Harlan Ellison

Sherman Oaks, Calif.

 

[Aman619]

On 2/23/2024 at 7:02 PM, Prince Namor said:

Or face the facts that in reality, that Stan Lee stole CREDIT and PAY from those artists.

which perhaps Jack would have also have done in that alternate universe where he is the boss.  To coin a famous Boards saying: I (often) think your moral compass is wound too tightly!  : )

[Prince Namor]

"One hopes Kirby will be given total free rein, that he will be allowed to ride his dreams wherever they take him, for the journey is a special one, and we get visionaries like Kirby only once in a generation, if we’re terribly lucky."

High praise from someone like Harlan Ellison... unfortunately Kirby didn't get free reign.

[Aman619]

Harlan Ellison??  jeez. is he the icon of something you espouse?  good writer, I guess, horrible person.

[Prince Namor]

On 2/24/2024 at 7:30 AM, Aman619 said:

which perhaps Jack would have also have done in that alternate universe where he is the boss.

i.e. an excuse for Stan stealing is to say "the other guy might've done it too!" 

Sorry... I don't think that way...

On 2/24/2024 at 7:30 AM, Aman619 said:

To coin a famous Boards saying: I (often) think your moral compass is wound too tightly!  : )

STEALING is having my moral compass wound too tightly?

[Prince Namor]

On 2/24/2024 at 7:33 AM, Aman619 said:

Harlan Ellison??  jeez. is he the icon of something you espouse?  good writer, I guess, horrible person.

As far as I know, he didn't STEAL credit or PAY from anyone for his writing, in this or any other known alternate universes. 

But he IS considered a great writer and knows a thing or two about it.

[Aman619]

as far as you know!  He was not a very popular guy with other creators...

"One hopes Kirby will be given total free rein, that he will be allowed to ride his dreams wherever they take him, for the journey is a special one, and we get visionaries like Kirby only once in a generation, if we’re terribly lucky."

 

was this part of a eulogy? or a jacket blurb?  Doesn't sound like how people talk in private.