WHAT IF: Stan Lee wasn't working at Marvel/Atlas Comics in 1961? 2 2

[Unca Ben]

On 2/23/2024 at 6:25 PM, Prince Namor said:

Were they rejected pages? Did Stan decide Ditko was the right guy for the job? (Even though he clearly WAS). Or did Stan see Kirby's involvement in both the Spider-man idea with Joe Simon, as well as his involvement with Joe Simon on the Fly at Archie as a possible legal issue and THAT was the reason he gave it to Ditko...

From Ditko:

Stan never told me who came up with the idea for SM or for the SM story Kirby was penciling. Stan did tell me SM was a teenager who had a magic ring that transformed him into an adult hero: SM.

I told Stan it sounded like Joe Simon's character, The Fly (1959), that Kirby had some hand in, for Archie Comics. Now here is a Fly/Spider connection. Not in any seeing a fly on a wall but in being told, in hearing, of the connection. And to paraphrase Stan, this connection "may even be the true one" and the other, of seeing a fly on a wall and of someone being transformed from an adult SM (Kirby/? version) into a teenage SM (Lee/Ditko version) and without any magic ring, a falsehood.

Stan called Jack about The Fly. I don't know what was said in that call.

Day(s) later, Stan told me we would be doing SM. I would be pencilling the story panel breakdowns from Stan's synopsis and doing the inking.

Kirby's five pencilled SM story/art pages were rejected. Out went the magic ring, adult SM and whatever legend ideas that SM story would have contained.

which is all from the article that i quoted.  so i know.

the point is, as this clearly states and  as i originally said in my first post, spider-man would have been a rehash of the fly if stan hadn't given the job to ditko.

[Prince Namor]

On 2/24/2024 at 9:28 AM, Unca Ben said:

which is all from the article that i quoted.  so i know.

the point is, as this clearly states and  as i originally said in my first post, spider-man would have been a rehash of the fly if stan hadn't given the job to ditko.

We don't know that because, Joe Simon would've had zero involvement. Kirby was hired as someone brought on to the Fly and even though he gave his ideas, it was Joe's project. And he didn't want to work that way. So we don't know what direction it would've gone. 

It wouldn't have been the same without Stan, I agree. But without Kirby it wouldn't have existed at all. 

[Unca Ben]

On 2/23/2024 at 6:27 PM, Prince Namor said:

Both are examples of affirmation. You just used it to try and put legitimacy to Stan's appeal (which isn't even in question) and I used it to show that a REAL writer, knows and understands real WRITING when he sees it, better than... a Stan Lee apologist.

Nope.  i didn't say that stan reached the masses thru pop culture because the villiage voice said so.  that would be an attempt at appealing to authority. 

and i didn't put the village voice as having a better (more of an authority - get it?) opinion than say, the eye magazine or college campus newsletters (the other examples i listed).

[Unca Ben]

dinner time and then a movie,  it's been a slice, prince namor.  take care.

[SpineTic]

Let's keep the conversation going.

 

[namisgr]

On 2/23/2024 at 8:07 PM, mrc said:

No one 'stole' anything because they were all paid employees, working in collaboration to create a product to sell. Sure, Kirby & Ditko may not have liked the Marvel Method or the fact that Stan 'took' credit but, Stan's promotion of the brand and his success in making the books 'relevant' and exciting is what made the 'product' sell and ultimately changed the way comic books were perceived as a creative medium.

Frankly, your continued accusations of 'theft' are beyond tedious.

Perhaps Chris Evans (Captain America) summed it up best, “There will never be another Stan Lee. For decades he provided both young and old with adventure, escape, comfort, confidence, inspiration, strength, friendship and joy. He exuded love and kindness and will leave an indelible mark on so, so, so many lives. Excelsior!!”

^ ^

While there were several hugely important creative forces working for Marvel, Stan Lee gave their comics line personality, fun, and appeal to young adults that DC didn't match, and that didn't exist prior to Stan's making it so.  It came not just from the comic plots, stories and art, and characters that were the product of several creators, but also from Stan's unquestioned contributions of the content and tone of the dialog, the Bullpen and letters pages, and the Marvel-run fan clubs, as well as Stan's efforts as the public face interacting with college students, the press, and artists from other media.

Finally, given that a longstanding thread is already devoted to denigrating Stan's influence and involvement in Marvel's success, it would be nice if this one weren't used for that very same and so repetitive purpose.

Edited February 25 by namisgr

[jimjum12]

On 2/25/2024 at 8:49 AM, namisgr said:

^ ^

While there were several hugely important creative forces working for Marvel, Stan Lee gave their comics line personality, fun, and appeal to young adults that DC didn't match, and that didn't exist prior to Stan's making it so.  It came not just from the comic plots, stories and art, and characters that were the product of several creators, but also from Stan's unquestioned contributions of the content and tone of the dialog, the Bullpen and letters pages, and the Marvel-run fan clubs, as well as Stan's efforts as the public face interacting with college students, the press, and artists from other media.

Finally, given that a longstanding thread is already devoted to denigrating Stan's influence and involvement in Marvel's success, it would be nice if this one weren't used for that very same and so repetitive purpose.

... It's amazing how many intelligent and otherwise lucid people just can't seem to wrap their minds around this dynamic that you set forth. It helps me to rationalize a little, when I see how many of them weren't even buying comics at the time Stan was in his prime. Had he not been there at Atlas, and Ditko and Kirby had still shown up, I'm guessing we would have had more of the wooden, melodramatic drivel that was the keynote of comics, before and after the Marvel Age. There would have been no butterfly effect without Stan. I know this may be blasphemy to some, but I don't see a Marvel Age without Jack and Steve either. As for the two of them being stark, raving geniuses', I'm not seeing that either. Both did their best with creative channeling. I know one thing, I can count on one hand the titles of their's that I patronized after Marvel. ASM was already starting to swan dive a bit after Ditko took over total plotting. The most popular and trendsetting material with ASM came from the Lee/Ditko collaboration. It was teamwork that made the dream work.. Period. End Of Discussion.  GOD BLESS ...

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)

 

...if Stan was kept on at Marvel from the 1940's on... just because he was Goodman's nephew; Stan's Aunt must have had some mighty skills ... I mean, his nephew? ...come on.

Edited February 26 by jimjum12

[jimjum12]

On 2/23/2024 at 9:27 PM, Prince Namor said:

Both are examples of affirmation. You just used it to try and put legitimacy to Stan's appeal (which isn't even in question) and I used it to show that a REAL writer, knows and understands real WRITING when he sees it, better than... a Stan Lee apologist.

Fine words, coming from an armchair Kirby apologist  GOD BLESS ...

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)

 

 

[ganni]

 WHAT IF: Stan Lee wasn't working at Marvel/Atlas Comics in 1961?

General Stan Lee 

[FlyingDonut]

Who cares? He did. It is amazing any of us have children.

[Zonker]

On 2/26/2024 at 8:18 AM, FlyingDonut said:

 It is amazing any of us have children.

Not so amazing.

FACT*: Reading Stan Lee comics promotes sperm production.  

FACT*: Reading those other comics leads to ED.  

 

* Coulda gone the other way, but this is Stan's thread, after all

[SpineTic]

What about what he did for Saturday morning cartoons? 

 

[jsilverjanet]

The hero worship of "stan lee" is a little weird

 

[jimjum12]

[Gambold Vintage]

>but I don't see a Marvel Age without Jack and Steve either. <

The sum is always greater than the parts, in a collaborative art form.  Same can be said about movies. Brando and Pacino made The Godfather a classic - but no Coppolla and it's hard to see it hitting the same level. 

What isn't arguable is that Kirby, Ditko et al were artists, paid by Marvel to produce work.  Stan Lee was an Editor who was paid by Marvel to supervise the artists, the writers, and the product. There are no demons here - there are people doing their jobs.  Sure, everyone who ever has collected a paycheck in any place of work has complained about it not being enough, AND how their superiors are getting unfair credit for their labor or ideas.  That's how business works. I'm sure Stan Lee felt he was underpaid and under-appreciated at times too. 

For me, the Kirby vs Lee or Ditko vs Lee arguments are about the most boring topic in comics. Who really cares. All three of these men have been praised to the high heavens for doing something not THAT notable or earth-shattering - producing funny books. They all got paid, they all got "immortality," such as it is...and again, I don't see any white hats or black ones here. 
 

 

Edited February 26 by Gambold Vintage

[Unca Ben]

On 2/26/2024 at 5:18 AM, FlyingDonut said:

Who cares? He did. It is amazing any of us have children.

Whoa there, hoss.  I started this as a fun thread, while defending Stan from the outrage journalism propaganda that gets tossed around.  It's not that serious (hence the What If: scenario).  Folks sure like any excuse to insult around here.    Speaking of children that's not very adult.

Edited February 26 by Unca Ben

[namisgr]

Actually, this thread would be where everyone else who's not you tries to post their opinions on Stan Lee's contributions to Marvel.  And having been a comic book reader since the early '60s, mine are both well formed and informed about that era.  As for 1978 and beyond, I had nothing to say about it.  As for Kirby and Ditko, I had nothing to add about them, either, my opinion being concentrated on Stan's vital role in giving Marvel comics a unique and popular personality as it became the most popular comics publisher with young adults in the '60s and early '70s.  That impact is still felt today, as among collectors over the past three decades it's been Marvel comics that have dominated the Silver Age collecting hobby, as the CGC census and time spent at any comic convention can attest.

As for your opinion, it's well articulated elsewhere already through dozens if not hundreds of posts. That contradicts your mention of being suppressed from posting.  Here, a place for other posters with differing opinions and the space to voice them would be respectful.

Edited February 27 by namisgr

[jimjum12]

On 2/26/2024 at 10:37 PM, namisgr said:

 Here, a place for other posters with differing opinions and the space to voice them would be respectful.

Unfortunately, respect may not be on his agenda. GOD BLESS ... 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)

[CGC Mike]

On 2/26/2024 at 10:37 PM, namisgr said:

Here, a place for other posters with differing opinions and the space to voice them would be respectful.

Done!

[jimjum12]

One of my favorite weekends of all, the journey to Baltimore Comicon 2011, with Judy and my pal, Lewis Forro. It's hard to believe this was almost 15 years ago. 

2011 BALTIMORE. A DATE WITH JUDY.

The following picture is from standing in line to get 3 autographs from Stan. A little ahead was a crippled boy meeting Stan and getting the autograph. The guy behind me had the OA for the newspaper strip where Peter marries MJ. We were told no pictures or talking to Stan ... say what? GOD BLESS ... 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)