WHAT IF: Stan Lee wasn't working at Marvel/Atlas Comics in 1961? 2 2

[shadroch]

A landowner hired men to harvest his fields.  He promised them all a piece of silver for the day's work.  He hired more men at noon, and at 3 PM he hired even more. When the work was done and the day was over, the men were ordered to line up, with the last hired at the front line.  When the men at the back of the line saw those who had hardly worked were getting a silver piece, they were delighted as they thought they'd get paid more. When they only got one piece of silver, they complained loudly.  The landlord reminded them they got paid exactly what they'd agreed to.   For those who might think this sounds vaguely familiar, it is from the Bible. 

Kirby and Ditko got paid exactly what they agreed to. I'm not sure how anyone with common sense thinks that is stealing, but if you keep repeating it often enough, you might come to believe it.

[mrc]

On 2/24/2024 at 12:02 AM, Prince Namor said:

Or face the facts in reality, that Stan Lee stole CREDIT and PAY from those artists.

No one 'stole' anything because they were all paid employees, working in collaboration to create a product to sell. Sure, Kirby & Ditko may not have liked the Marvel Method or the fact that Stan 'took' credit but, Stan's promotion of the brand and his success in making the books 'relevant' and exciting is what made the 'product' sell and ultimately changed the way comic books were perceived as a creative medium.

Frankly, your continued accusations of 'theft' are beyond tedious.

Perhaps Chris Evans (Captain America) summed it up best, “There will never be another Stan Lee. For decades he provided both young and old with adventure, escape, comfort, confidence, inspiration, strength, friendship and joy. He exuded love and kindness and will leave an indelible mark on so, so, so many lives. Excelsior!!”

[Unca Ben]

On 2/23/2024 at 4:02 PM, Prince Namor said:

Or face the facts in reality, that Stan Lee stole CREDIT and PAY from those artists.

not according to Ditko. But what would he know?  you understand way more than he did.  just because.

Edited February 24 by Unca Ben

[Frisco Larson]

On 2/23/2024 at 7:08 PM, Unca Ben said:

not according to Ditko. But what would he know?  you understand way more than he did.  just because.

BUT did Steve Ditko yell "FACT" before he made his statement? That seems to carry a lot of weight around here ... 

[Unca Ben]

On 2/23/2024 at 5:01 PM, shadroch said:

 

Kirby and Ditko got paid exactly what they agreed to. I'm not sure how anyone with common sense thinks that is stealing, but if you keep repeating it often enough, you might come to believe it.

amen.

[Unca Ben]

On 2/23/2024 at 5:14 PM, Frisco Larson said:

BUT did Steve Ditko yell "FACT" before he made his statement? That seems to carry a lot of weight around here ... 

It's all the latest rage nowadays.  The claim is the fact and the fact is the claim.  Understand?

[Prince Namor]

On 2/24/2024 at 7:59 AM, Aman619 said:

as far as you know!  He was not a very popular guy with other creators...

"One hopes Kirby will be given total free rein, that he will be allowed to ride his dreams wherever they take him, for the journey is a special one, and we get visionaries like Kirby only once in a generation, if we’re terribly lucky."

 

 

was this part of a eulogy? or a jacket blurb?  Doesn't sound like how people talk in private.

I know Stan Lee Marvel readers need their hands held through the puzzling idea (to them) of sequential art, to be told exactly what is happening in pictures that clearly explain it, but this is a pretty easy 'written word' mystery to figure out:

"Dear Editor:"

[Unca Ben]

On 2/23/2024 at 4:29 PM, Prince Namor said:

See, Lee didn't keep Atlas afloat. It was a boom time in comics. 

 

Less than a year. Post-Wertham was a tough time in comics.

So when it's Stan thru the 50s, it was a boom time in comics.  When It's Kirby's company failing in the 50s, it was a tough time.  Gotcha.  

On 2/23/2024 at 4:29 PM, Prince Namor said:

Here's someone's opinion on it that I respect more than yours:

Hey, me too!  There's a lot of opinions that I respect more than mine.  
 

Which reminds me of a saying that I subscribe to:  "I don't respect half of you half as well as I should like; and I respect less than half of you half as well as you deserve."   Then I disappear.  

[Unca Ben]

On 2/23/2024 at 6:01 PM, Prince Namor said:

I know Stan Lee Marvel readers need their hands held through the puzzling idea (to them) of sequential art, to be told exactly what is happening in pictures that clearly explain it, but this is a pretty easy 'written word' mystery to figure out:

"Dear Editor:"

Ah.  more insults.  it begins.

[Prince Namor]

On 2/24/2024 at 8:08 AM, Unca Ben said:

not according to Ditko. But what would he know?  you understand way more than he did.  just because.

Ditko clearly stated he was doing work he wasn't credited for. That the working arrangement had changed. And that, with Annual #2, was when he decided to quit.

He did not specifically mention pay. But when you're doing the other person's work, you're NOT getting paid for it.

Stan WAS getting paid for writing the ASM and Dr. Strange. $15 a page ($142 per page adjusted for inflation), to take a completed story and add dialogue.

[Prince Namor]

On 2/24/2024 at 9:13 AM, Unca Ben said:

So when it's Stan thru the 50s, it was a boom time in comics.  When It's Kirby's company failing in the 50s, it was a tough time.  Gotcha.  

Which part isn't true? Are you saying 1953 in the Comic Book world was the same as 1955 after the Wertham hearings? Let's be clear on what facts you think I got wrong here, because I DIDN'T.

[Unca Ben]

On 2/23/2024 at 6:15 PM, Prince Namor said:

Ditko clearly stated he was doing work he wasn't credited for. That the working arrangement had changed. And that, with Annual #2, was when he decided to quit.

He did not specifically mention pay. But when you're doing the other person's work, you're NOT getting paid for it.

Stan WAS getting paid for writing the ASM and Dr. Strange. $15 a page ($142 per page adjusted for inflation), to take a completed story and add dialogue.

take it up with ditko.  i'm just repeating what he has said.  the reason that he left marvel is known only to him and stan. the only money gripe he had was royalties  with goodman. 

[Unca Ben]

On 2/23/2024 at 6:18 PM, Prince Namor said:

Which part isn't true? Are you saying 1953 in the Comic Book world was the same as 1955 after the Wertham hearings? Let's be clear on what facts you think I got wrong here, because I DIDN'T.

i talked about stans success  thru the 50's. which then includes post wertham.

Edited February 24 by Unca Ben

[Prince Namor]

On 2/24/2024 at 8:07 AM, mrc said:

Perhaps Chris Evans (Captain America) summed it up best...

 I quote one of the most famous sci-fi writers and you quote 'an actor' to defend Stan. Sums it up.

[Unca Ben]

On 2/23/2024 at 6:19 PM, Prince Namor said:

 I quote one of the most famous sci-fi writers and you quote 'an actor' to defend Stan. Sums it up.

appeal to authority?  nice.

[Prince Namor]

On 2/24/2024 at 9:18 AM, Unca Ben said:

take it up with ditko.  i'm just repeating what he has said.  the reason that he left marvel is known only to him and stan. the only money gripe he had was royalties  with goodman. 

Not true. And I have plenty of his writings to back it up.

[Prince Namor]

On 2/24/2024 at 9:20 AM, Unca Ben said:

appeal to authority?  nice.

as opposed to the 'Village Voice'? Yes.

[Unca Ben]

On 2/23/2024 at 6:21 PM, Prince Namor said:

as opposed to the 'Village Voice'? Yes.

different context.  i was pointing out examples of how stan reached pop culture.  you were putting ellison above "an actor".  that's the fallacy of appealing to authority.

nice twist, though.

Edited February 24 by Unca Ben

[Prince Namor]

Were they rejected pages? Did Stan decide Ditko was the right guy for the job? (Even though he clearly WAS). Or did Stan see Kirby's involvement in both the Spider-man idea with Joe Simon, as well as his involvement with Joe Simon on the Fly at Archie as a possible legal issue and THAT was the reason he gave it to Ditko...

From Ditko:

Stan never told me who came up with the idea for SM or for the SM story Kirby was penciling. Stan did tell me SM was a teenager who had a magic ring that transformed him into an adult hero: SM.

I told Stan it sounded like Joe Simon's character, The Fly (1959), that Kirby had some hand in, for Archie Comics. Now here is a Fly/Spider connection. Not in any seeing a fly on a wall but in being told, in hearing, of the connection. And to paraphrase Stan, this connection "may even be the true one" and the other, of seeing a fly on a wall and of someone being transformed from an adult SM (Kirby/? version) into a teenage SM (Lee/Ditko version) and without any magic ring, a falsehood.

Stan called Jack about The Fly. I don't know what was said in that call.

Day(s) later, Stan told me we would be doing SM. I would be pencilling the story panel breakdowns from Stan's synopsis and doing the inking.

Kirby's five pencilled SM story/art pages were rejected. Out went the magic ring, adult SM and whatever legend ideas that SM story would have contained.

[Prince Namor]

On 2/24/2024 at 9:23 AM, Unca Ben said:

different context.  i was pointing out examples of how stan reached pop culture.  you were putting ellison above "an actor".  that's the fallacy of appealing to authority.

nice twist, though.

Both are examples of affirmation. You just used it to try and put legitimacy to Stan's appeal (which isn't even in question) and I used it to show that a REAL writer, knows and understands real WRITING when he sees it, better than... a Stan Lee apologist.