WHAT IF: Stan Lee wasn't working at Marvel/Atlas Comics in 1961? 2 2

[Jaylam]

On 2/26/2024 at 9:33 AM, SpineTic said:

What about what he did for Saturday morning cartoons? 

 

And in just a few short years, not only did Stan revamp the look of comic books, he revamped the look of himself......new found hair and beard???

[jimjum12]

On 3/7/2024 at 7:10 PM, Jaylam said:

And in just a few short years, not only did Stan revamp the look of comic books, he revamped the look of himself......new found hair and beard???

Hey, "with great responsibility comes great power", apparently including the ability to regenerate hair. GOD BLESS ... 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)

[BLUECHIPCOLLECTIBLES]

On 3/6/2024 at 8:36 PM, Hepcat said:

I agree. It's Stan Lee we should blame for that whole relevance to college kids thing.

Reading typical quotes from Stan during this era, you can imagine he's wearing love beads and a peace symbol necklace while "Revolution" plays in the BG

Edited March 9 by BLUECHIPCOLLECTIBLES

[Hepcat]

Where did you find that illustration?

[BLUECHIPCOLLECTIBLES]

On 3/9/2024 at 10:55 AM, Hepcat said:

Where did you find that illustration?

A 60s magazine named "Charlie" -- that's part of an article

[Unca Ben]

On 3/9/2024 at 10:38 AM, BLUECHIPCOLLECTIBLES said:

Reading typical quotes from Stan during this era, you can imagine he's wearing love beads and a peace symbol necklace while "Revolution" plays in the BG

"We try to make our heroes not all good and our villains not all bad." 

Now let's compare this to Ditko's Mr. A , who first appeared in 1967.  Sometimes the answer to a question is right in front of us.  (re: what were the conflicts between Ditko and Stan when Ditko left Marvel)
 

"That fool thinks there is a middle of the road between good and evil, that he can have the advantages of both sides..."

 

In another of Ditko's essays he mentions that "a hero cannot be neurotic."

… so here we have the two guys responsible for what is becoming one of the most popular super heroes, and their ideas of good and bad and of the characteristics of a hero could not be further apart.  
 

-just a thought.

Edited March 10 by Unca Ben

[Unca Ben]

… and these are not my words, not my spin on what went on back then.  These words are directly from Stan and Steve with no interpretation necessary from me, to make some imagined point.  (You know, make a conclusion and only search for the evidence that may be interpreted to bolster that opinion.)

Edited March 10 by Unca Ben

[BLUECHIPCOLLECTIBLES]

On 3/9/2024 at 6:51 PM, Unca Ben said:

… and these are not my words, not my spin on what went on back then.  These words are directly from Stan and Steve with no interpretation necessary from me, to make some imagined point.  (You know, make a conclusion and only search for the evidence that may be interpreted to bolster your opinion.)

A look at Spider-man 38 shows the divide between their views.  Ditko drew it in late 1965 with no input from Stan.  It contains a sequence wherein Peter confronts student protesters who behave like sneering brats and Peter seethes because he'd like to thrash them,  later Lee and Romita did a similar sequence in 1968, and Peter is much more sympathetic to the protesters.  

[Unca Ben]

On 3/9/2024 at 7:04 PM, BLUECHIPCOLLECTIBLES said:

A look at Spider-man 38 shows the divide between their views.  Ditko drew it in late 1965 with no input from Stan.  It contains a sequence wherein Peter confronts student protesters who behave like sneering brats and Peter seethes because he'd like to thrash them,  later Lee and Romita did a similar sequence in 1968, and Peter is much more sympathetic to the protesters.  

That would have been another one of my points if I weren't aiming for brevity 

Edited March 10 by Unca Ben

[BLUECHIPCOLLECTIBLES]

On 3/9/2024 at 7:06 PM, Unca Ben said:

That would have been another one of my points id I weren't aiming for brevity 

Another beat in ASM 38 has always made me want to see the OA and Ditko's description of what's happening:  Spidey has defeated the villain and turns to see a smiling mannequin, which irks him so much he punches it.  Stan's dialogue has spidey saying the mannequin "reminds me of Ned Leeds".  Being this was literally the last time Steve drew Spidey throwing a punch, and that he did so while planning to quit, methinks Steve might've meant it be a parting shot as another person, like maybe somebody with a nickname about his "smilin'"  

Edited March 10 by BLUECHIPCOLLECTIBLES

[Hepcat]

On 3/9/2024 at 9:47 PM, Unca Ben said:

In another of Ditko's essays he mentions that "a hero cannot be neurotic."

As a kid back in 1961-65 I didn't want my heroes to be neurotic. I found the neuroticism of the Marvel characters silly because it was distracting from the plot. Yes, yes, I know such neuroticism was lionized in magazine articles but those articles were written by old fogeys not kids.

[Unca Ben]

On 3/9/2024 at 8:27 PM, Hepcat said:

As a kid back in 1961-65 I didn't want my heroes to be neurotic. I found the neuroticism of the Marvel characters silly because it was distracting from the plot. Yes, yes, I know such neuroticism was lionized in magazine articles but those articles were written by old fogeys not kids.

And see, I liked the problems pestering Peter in ASM.  Aunt May's health, trouble paying the bills, Flash, JJJ, Betty Brant's intense dislike of Spider-Man, guilt over Uncle Ben (the last of which I believe Ditko addressed in the Master Planner trilogy and would have had that particular monkey off Peter's back had Ditko continued the series). In fact when I re-read the Ditko/Romita run, on occasion I find myself skipping thru the battle scenes and focusing more on the stuff about Peter's private life.  I find it fascinating.  Always did.

Edited March 10 by Unca Ben

[mrc]

On 3/10/2024 at 9:29 AM, Unca Ben said:

And see, I liked the problems pestering Peter in ASM.  Aunt May's health, trouble paying the bills, Flash, JJJ, Betty Brant's intense dislike of Spider-Man, guilt over Uncle Ben (the last of which I believe Ditko addressed in the Master Planner trilogy and would have had that particular monkey off Peter's back had Ditko continued the series). In fact when I re-read the Ditko/Romita run, on occasion I find myself skipping thru the battle scenes and focusing more on the stuff about Peter's private life.  I find it fascinating.  Always did.

Exactly. Which is why (at age 10) I was heavily invested in the ASM characters and the run became an essential weekly (in the UK) pickup for me at the newsagents/paper shop/sweet shop.

[Dr. Haydn]

On 3/9/2024 at 12:38 PM, BLUECHIPCOLLECTIBLES said:

Reading typical quotes from Stan during this era, you can imagine he's wearing love beads and a peace symbol necklace while "Revolution" plays in the BG

Sam Rosen lettering on the caption, top left. The magazine went all out to preserve the Marvel look.

[Hepcat]

On 3/10/2024 at 5:29 AM, Unca Ben said:

And see, I liked the problems pestering Peter in ASM.  Aunt May's health, trouble paying the bills, Flash, JJJ, Betty Brant's intense dislike of Spider-Man, guilt over Uncle Ben (the last of which I believe Ditko addressed in the Master Planner trilogy and would have had that particular monkey off Peter's back had Ditko continued the series). In fact when I re-read the Ditko/Romita run, on occasion I find myself skipping thru the battle scenes and focusing more on the stuff about Peter's private life.  I find it fascinating.  Always did.

Ahhhhh, but you're now speaking as just some other old guy. Were you an eleven year old in 1963 reading Amazing Spider-Man?

Edited March 18 by Hepcat

[Unca Ben]

On 3/10/2024 at 8:42 PM, Hepcat said:

Ahhhhh, but you're now speaking as just some other old guy. Were you an eleven year old in 1963 reading Amazing Spider-Man?

I was born in '56.  The first ASM I bought off the stands was #24, so I was 8 in early '65.  I also bought Avengers #15 that same month and I already had a couple earlier Marvel books.  I really liked the stories and writing compared to the DC's I had (Superman, Flash, Atom, GL, Detective etc.). 

The dialogue was better in Marvel books.  Not a "Great Scott", *CHOKE*, or a *GROAN* among them.  I did enjoy the DC WAR books, however.
While Lois Lane was still trying to trap Superman into marriage much less figure out his secret identity (and ending up over Superman's knee getting a spanking), Captain America was engaged in a dramatic fight to the death with Zemo to avenge Bucky's death. 
While the JLA (or JSA actually) was fighting Johnny Thunder's magical Thunderbolt, "say you", the FF were dealing with the betrayal of an emotionally damaged Ben Grimm in the thrall of the Wizard and the evil FF, the Frightful Four.

Way more interesting stories and characterization, for me. When reading JLA, the tail of the word balloons would often be needed to indicate who said what.  Batman's, Superman's, Green Lantern's, etc., vocabulary was interchangeable.  I would never confuse Reed Richard's dialogue with Ben Grimm's or the Torch's.  No word balloon tail needed.

 

Edited March 11 by Unca Ben

[jimjum12]

On 3/9/2024 at 9:47 PM, Unca Ben said:

"We try to make our heroes not all good and our villains not all bad." 

Now let's compare this to Ditko's Mr. A , who first appeared in 1967.  Sometimes the answer to a question is right in front of us.  (re: what were the conflicts between Ditko and Stan when Ditko left Marvel)
 

"That fool thinks there is a middle of the road between good and evil, that he can have the advantages of both sides..."

 

In another of Ditko's essays he mentions that "a hero cannot be neurotic."

… so here we have the two guys responsible for what is becoming one of the most popular super heroes, and their ideas of good and bad and of the characteristics of a hero could not be further apart.  
 

-just a thought.

Stop! ... just Stop! No need to spoil everything with reality. You're fouling up the morning of haters everywhere. GOD BLESS ...

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)

[jimjum12]

On 3/10/2024 at 11:42 PM, Hepcat said:

Ahhhhh, but you're now speaking as just some other old guy. Were you an eleven year old in 1963 reading Amazing Spider-Man?

I've never been a brand loyalist and liked a bit of DC, especially Adam Strange, Atomic Knights, and ANYTHING Adams did, but that Marvel stuff became my favorites, because with Marvel, I felt like I was tagging along. ASM is one of the few books I can re-read, like Unca Ben said, primarily for the soap opera stuff. FF was the same with Lee Kirby, until Kirby took more control in the late 60's and the book became an endless series of explosions and peeps getting punched through brick walls and vistas of destruction. Yup, Stan was the soul of Marvel, and when he took on more of a spokesman role, the change was noticeable to me. I still missed Kirby when he left, it was like Mom and Dad splitting up, for me. Together, they were golden.  GOD BLESS ...

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)

[Hepcat]

On 3/18/2024 at 8:32 AM, jimjum12 said:

...but that Marvel stuff became my favorites, because with Marvel, I felt like I was tagging along.

Yes, I think that was one of the two main keys to hooking the kids who were the predominant market for comics back then. The other was the loose threads left at the end of many/most stories and the interwoven cross-title storylines.

On 3/18/2024 at 8:32 AM, jimjum12 said:

ASM is one of the few books I can re-read, like Unca Ben said, primarily for the soap opera stuff. FF was the same with Lee Kirby....

But that's now, and you're just some other old guy now. I'm interested in how/why Marvel hooked so many youngsters into being part of the Merry Marvel Marching Society back in 1962-66.

Edited March 18 by Hepcat

[Zonker]

On 3/18/2024 at 11:38 AM, Hepcat said:

 

I'm interested in how/why Marvel hooked so many youngsters into being part of the Merry Marvel Marching Society back in 1962-66.

I have a theory that in addition to all the other points made above (including the dynamic storytelling abilities of Kirby/Ditko/Lee), Stan Lee flattered his audience, talking to them as if they were perhaps more sophisticated than they were.  So, the fact that Stan was out there talking to college audiences might not have done anything to increase the actual readership of the college age crowd, but I suspect it did a lot to increase the brand loyalty of his middle-school readers, who at that age desperately wanted to avoid the appearance of reading stuff that was too kiddish.