Will CGC Note Pedigrees on Pulp Labels? 1 1

[Sarg]

Will CGC Note Pedigrees on Pulp Labels? Just curious. 

[Bookery]

There really aren't any pedigrees in pulps like there is with comics (at least so far).  The only one considered a pedigree is the Yakima books, but even they were primarily from near the end of the pulp era, so nothing like the Church collection in terms of scope.  There are probably more likely to be provenance collections (like the Frank Robinson collection) than actual pedigrees like comics (i.e., purchased off the newsstand by a single buyer).

[tth2]

On 3/26/2024 at 7:31 AM, Bookery said:

There really aren't any pedigrees in pulps like there is with comics (at least so far).  The only one considered a pedigree is the Yakima books, but even they were primarily from near the end of the pulp era, so nothing like the Church collection in terms of scope.  There are probably more likely to be provenance collections (like the Frank Robinson collection) than actual pedigrees like comics (i.e., purchased off the newsstand by a single buyer).

There are many comic collections that are significantly less noteworthy than the Church collection, but they're still given pedigree status.  So I don't think pulp collections should be denied pedigree status just because they don't meet the Church threshold.

Yakima sounds like it already has market acceptance as a pedigree, so CGC should recognize it, just like they recognized a number of pedigrees that had long been accepted by the market before CGC came around, even though some might not have received pedigree status if they'd been assessed under more recent tighter criteria. 

[Bookery]

On 3/26/2024 at 12:13 AM, tth2 said:

There are many comic collections that are significantly less noteworthy than the Church collection, but they're still given pedigree status.  So I don't think pulp collections should be denied pedigree status just because they don't meet the Church threshold.

Yakima sounds like it already has market acceptance as a pedigree, so CGC should recognize it, just like they recognized a number of pedigrees that had long been accepted by the market before CGC came around, even though some might not have received pedigree status if they'd been assessed under more recent tighter criteria. 

It's not a matter of denying pedigree status... I'm just not sure there are collections that qualify, is my point.  Yes, Yakima has been accepted, and they probably will put it on the ones for which records have been maintained.  But by traditional definitions, a pedigree is a collection that was put together by a single buyer fresh off the newsstands and then maintained in high quality ever since.  Since the heyday for collectible pulps was the 20s and 30s... going to be much more difficult to have surviving original collections.  Plus, the paper was generally inferior even to that of comics, so high-grades holding up for going on 100 years is tough.

I think the emphasis for pulp collectors will be on collections that have carefully been cultivated, even if second-hand or later, or come from famous collectors (Frank Robinson, Jim Steranko, etc.).  I'm sure such collections will be noted.

[detective35]

On 3/25/2024 at 5:31 PM, Bookery said:

There really aren't any pedigrees in pulps like there is with comics (at least so far).  The only one considered a pedigree is the Yakima books, but even they were primarily from near the end of the pulp era, so nothing like the Church collection in terms of scope.  There are probably more likely to be provenance collections (like the Frank Robinson collection) than actual pedigrees like comics (i.e., purchased off the newsstand by a single buyer).

Re:  Pedigrees.

They already have put the gold labels on Yakima's as a pedigree and will do the same for Strassers.

Just to clarify for people that don't know:

 So far, I know the Yakima and the Strasser collections are the pedigrees. They might also include file copies, but you'd have to talk to Matt about that .

Matt stated the beginning that the Strassers were a pedigree, so I'm not sure where this information is coming from about being only 1 pedigree in pulps.

As much as I love the Yakima's (I have close to 60 Yakima Shadows), the Strasser collection is the top pedigree collection in pulps.

FYI

There were 1800 books in the Strasser collection starting at the end of 1933-1941, all coded, with the majority being in newsstand condition with nice paper.

There hasn't been many graded because people with the Strassers have not sent any to be graded yet, as most people are just keeping them in their collection and not reselling them.

BTW

There is another collection that came out in the 1980s that might also be noted as a pedigree, but Matt is just gathering the information right now.

Edited March 27 by detective35

[detective35]

On 3/25/2024 at 10:13 PM, tth2 said:

There are many comic collections that are significantly less noteworthy than the Church collection, but they're still given pedigree status.  So I don't think pulp collections should be denied pedigree status just because they don't meet the Church threshold.

Yakima sounds like it already has market acceptance as a pedigree, so CGC should recognize it, just like they recognized a number of pedigrees that had long been accepted by the market before CGC came around, even though some might not have received pedigree status if they'd been assessed under more recent tighter criteria. 

Re:  Pedigrees.

As I mentioned above to Tim.

Edited March 26 by detective35

[Dr. Love]

On 3/26/2024 at 5:39 AM, Bookery said:

 Yakima has been accepted, and they probably will put it on the ones for which records have been maintained. 

From page 1 of the Recent CGC Pulp thread, recently, by Rick. Did I mention it's on PAGE 1 and not buried in the distant past? 

And I'm not even a "pulp guy".  Geez Louise!

 

 

 

 

[waaaghboss]

And from Dave smith

[Robot Man]

Will CGC give ped status to a Yakima with a photo copy of the cert? I would hate to send the original and lose it like what happened to a Gaines file I sent in early.

I also have a couple file copies I bought from David T Alexander that came from a writer’s files. No certificate but have the eBay listing. Would that count for a notation on the label? 

[detective35]

On 3/26/2024 at 8:08 PM, Robot Man said:

Will CGC give ped status to a Yakima with a photo copy of the cert? I would hate to send the original and lose it like what happened to a Gaines file I sent in early.

I also have a couple file copies I bought from David T Alexander that came from a writer’s files. No certificate but have the eBay listing. Would that count for a notation on the label? 

Good point about the photocopy of the cert.

You could ask Matt and maybe he had allow you to send a photocopy of the certificate when you send it in and keep the original or if you have to send the original certification in, just take a picture of it.

If that's the case and they lose the  certification, Dave will probably have a master list.

As far as file copies go, that's tricky, because if it's a "Popular" file copy and there's no stamp on the outside of the inside. you'll probably have to get as much lineage as possible so it can be traced back to the source of the main people that bought the file copies, or at least back to the people that bought them directly off the original people that got them directly from the Popular warehouse!

 

 

Edited March 27 by detective35

[Dr. Love]

Yes to the photocopy. That's what I do now with Crippens. Probably no to file copies, too murky.

[Robot Man]

On 3/26/2024 at 9:56 PM, Dr. Love said:

Yes to the photocopy. That's what I do now with Crippens. Probably no to file copies, too murky.

Thanks Andy. I’d much rather lose a photocopy than an original COA. I never got back an original signed Gaines COA years ago.

 

[Robot Man]

On 3/26/2024 at 8:55 PM, detective35 said:

Good point about the photocopy of the cert.

You could ask Matt and maybe he had allow you to send a photocopy of the certificate when you send it in and keep the original or if you have to send the original certification in, just take a picture of it.

If that's the case and they lose the  certification, Dave will probably have a master list.

As far as file copies go, that's tricky, because if it's a "Popular" file copy and there's no stamp on the outside of the inside. you'll probably have to get as much lineage as possible so it can be traced back to the source of the main people that bought the file copies, or at least back to the people that bought them directly off the original people that got them directly from the Popular warehouse!

 

 

Hopefully a copy of the eBay listing from David T Alexander will work for the writer’s file copy I want to submit. 

[Bookery]

On 3/26/2024 at 6:24 PM, detective35 said:

 So far, I know the Yakima and the Strasser collections are the pedigrees. They might also include file copies, but you'd have to talk to Matt about that .

Matt stated the beginning that the Strassers were a pedigree, so I'm not sure where this information is coming from about being only 1 pedigree in pulps.

Yes, I forgot about the Strassers, but in all fairness, they have been little known until recently outside the hardcore pulp community.  And is there any real listing of them?  They were discovered so long ago (late '70s I think, by Von Crabell right here in my own area... I visited his home about that time, but wasn't paying much attention to pulps then)... this was way before anyone was tracking or even thinking in terms of pedigrees.  Crabell didn't keep a list to the best of my knowledge, and they were dispersed early on (one of my local customers owned a number of the Spicys for a time).  I know you've spent a lot of time tracking them down, but will there ever be a real way of knowing just what actual books belong to the collection beyond shadowy memories of some of the early buyers?  Or am I wrong, and did Crabell maintain an inventory listing?

[detective35]

On 3/27/2024 at 8:22 AM, Bookery said:

Yes, I forgot about the Strassers, but in all fairness, they have been little known until recently outside the hardcore pulp community.  And is there any real listing of them?  They were discovered so long ago (late '70s I think, by Von Crabell right here in my own area... I visited his home about that time, but wasn't paying much attention to pulps then)... this was way before anyone was tracking or even thinking in terms of pedigrees.  Crabell didn't keep a list to the best of my knowledge, and they were dispersed early on (one of my local customers owned a number of the Spicys for a time).  I know you've spent a lot of time tracking them down, but will there ever be a real way of knowing just what actual books belong to the collection beyond shadowy memories of some of the early buyers?  Or am I wrong, and did Crabell maintain an inventory listing?

Matt certainly know about the Strassers!

As I mentioned, they are "all coded" (A, B,  or C Code) w. a fountain pen, as the Mile High's were, it does not get any clearer than this.

Myself and Todd Warren have recorded hundreds of codes, and based on this it was pretty simple to discern how many books were in the collection.  However you need to put in hundreds of hours of detailed research in it ,as we did.  There were between 1700-1800 books in the collection.  There were a few types of titles that were not in the collection.

I have talked extensively with a mutual friend who knew what titles were in the entire collection.   There were NO Spicy's in the Strasser collection.  

The Strassers were found in the late 70's and emerged for sale (sparsely in the 80's), and then in the 90's and just because they were not promoted as a pedigree when they were sold, or a master list, means nothing, you then just have to do the research!!  However, everyone knew how incredible they were at the time, as they were priced double what the other pulps were priced at when they were brought to the Con's (which certainly brought resistance to the pulp community at the time.

High end collectors know about he Strassers, just that they have not been promoted to the new collectors, until a few years ago.  Collectors are either holding tight to them, as they are so stunning, or trying to accumulate them from old-time collections, as I am.   

Tim, I have more info., that I can chat with you about via phone.

Dwight

 

Edited March 27 by detective35

[Bookery]

On 3/27/2024 at 12:00 PM, detective35 said:

Matt certainly know about the Strassers!

As I mentioned, they are "all coded" (A, B,  or C Code) w. a fountain pen, as the Mile High's were, it does not get any clearer than this.

Myself and Todd Warren have recorded hundreds of codes, and based on this it was pretty simple to discern how many books were in the collection.  However you need to put in hundreds of hours of detailed research in it ,as we did.  There were between 1700-1800 books in the collection.  There were a few types of titles that were not in the collection.

I have talked extensively with a mutual friend who knew what titles were in the entire collection.   There were NO Spicy's in the Strasser collection. 

My error.  I meant Shadows.

On 3/27/2024 at 12:00 PM, detective35 said:

 

 

The Strassers were found in the late 70's and emerged for sale (sparsely in the 80's), and then in the 90's and just because they were not promoted as a pedigree when they were sold, or a master list, means nothing, you then just have to do the research!!  However, everyone knew how incredible they were at the time, as they were priced double what the other pulps were priced at when they were brought to the Con's (which certainly brought resistance to the pulp community at the time.

High end collectors know about he Strassers, just that they have not been promoted to the new collectors, until a few years ago.  Collectors are either holding tight to them, as they are so stunning, or trying to accumulate them from old-time collections, as I am.   

Tim, I have more info., that I can chat with you about via phone.

Dwight

 

I'm not saying they aren't a pedigree, just wondered how many could be identified after the fact.  And you've answered that.  My information, such as it is, comes from a friend of Crabell's who dealt with him regularly.  He was probably one of the first to see the collection and purchase books (only about 30-50, I think, as that's all he could afford at the time).  That was before they ever made it to any shows.  CrabelL was a rare book dealer who never dealt in pulps until he purchased this collection at an estate sale on a whim (his wife was furious that he'd done so).  He apparently filled his Cadillac with them to the extent that he could barely see to drive. I was at his house only once with my father who was also a rare book dealer at the time, doing some purchasing.  Unfortunately, I don't recall if there were pulps there or not.  There were lots of old books in the basement of the house, as well as in a separate shed-barn out back.  That's about the extent that I personally remember.  But my customer was there with some frequency... I'll have to ask him how many pulps were there when he last saw them, since he had a direct interest in them.

[detective35]

Tim

if we're talking about Tom, I've had multiple detailed discussions with him regarding the Strasser collection as he knew Von quite well.
 

I've taken down the notes in detail and he's explained everything in detail as much as he can remember (as far as the church sale that they were at, and where Von Craybill  loaded up the Cadillac with some 1700 to 1800 Strassers lol.)

There were some other people in the area and outside of the area that I obtained other detailed information as well, and Todd did research on Robert Strasser himself.

Edited March 27 by detective35

[Bookery]

On 3/27/2024 at 2:47 PM, detective35 said:

Tim

if we're talking about Tom, I've had multiple detailed discussions with him regarding the Strasser collection as he knew Von quite well.
 

I've taken down the notes in detail and he's explained everything in detail as much as he can remember (as far as the church sale that they were at, and where Von Craybill  loaded up the Cadillac with some 1700 to 1800 Strassers lol.)

There were some other people in the area and outside of the area that I obtained other detailed information as well, and Todd did research on Robert Strasser himself.

Yes, sorry... forgot that he talked with you.  BTW... I spelled the name wrong above... it's Von Crabill (confirmed on on old ad from the TV station he worked at).  Tom also confirmed that at the time, the books were not referred to as Strassers (they were just called "those pulps that Von picked up")   The Strasser connection was made later from names written on them.  The confusion I made with Spicys vs. Shadows was from the fact that around the same time, from this same area, another collection of very high grade pulps was discovered.  The two collections were polar opposites... the Strasser collection had none of the "girly" titles or covers, while this other collection was almost nothing but.

The second collection would definitely have merited pedigree status, but too little is known about it.  A couple had bought it out of a house and began peddling  it to dealers, and eventually at one of the PulpCons.  I was talking with Tom again today, and we suddenly realized we were describing the same collection that I purchased pulps from 30 years later!  In 2018 an elderly woman (80s) brought in 2 batches of pulps... one was very high grade Weird Tales, the second was Spicys, Horror Stories, Terror Tales, and even one Saucy.  There were about 75 pulps total.  I assumed from the condition they were her husband's original-owner collection.  But no, it turns out they were bought second-hand by them, and they sold most of them decades ago.  But when moving, she found one box they'd forgotten about, and those were the ones I picked up in 2018 (and they were still in magnificent condition!).

Which, to dovetail back to my original point, showcases just how hard it's going to be to ever pinpoint true original-owner pulp pedigrees.  Strasser, Yakima, maybe one or two more will be determined.  But they are just so old and fragile... the combination of original owner, high grade, and a selection of keys usually necessary to what we think of as pedigrees is going to be tough.  Even the Yakimas, being latter-era science-fiction, wouldn't have a lot of what we think of as significant "keys" in them, most sf keys being from the 20s and 30s ( a few classic covers aside).  

[Darwination]

I'm curious about the girlies - did anybody end up with the lion's share of those?

[detective35]

On 3/27/2024 at 2:20 PM, Bookery said:

Yes, sorry... forgot that he talked with you.  BTW... I spelled the name wrong above... it's Von Crabill (confirmed on on old ad from the TV station he worked at).  Tom also confirmed that at the time, the books were not referred to as Strassers (they were just called "those pulps that Von picked up")   The Strasser connection was made later from names written on them.  The confusion I made with Spicys vs. Shadows was from the fact that around the same time, from this same area, another collection of very high grade pulps was discovered.  The two collections were polar opposites... the Strasser collection had none of the "girly" titles or covers, while this other collection was almost nothing but.

The second collection would definitely have merited pedigree status, but too little is known about it.  A couple had bought it out of a house and began peddling  it to dealers, and eventually at one of the PulpCons.  I was talking with Tom again today, and we suddenly realized we were describing the same collection that I purchased pulps from 30 years later!  In 2018 an elderly woman (80s) brought in 2 batches of pulps... one was very high grade Weird Tales, the second was Spicys, Horror Stories, Terror Tales, and even one Saucy.  There were about 75 pulps total.  I assumed from the condition they were her husband's original-owner collection.  But no, it turns out they were bought second-hand by them, and they sold most of them decades ago.  But when moving, she found one box they'd forgotten about, and those were the ones I picked up in 2018 (and they were still in magnificent condition!).

Which, to dovetail back to my original point, showcases just how hard it's going to be to ever pinpoint true original-owner pulp pedigrees.  Strasser, Yakima, maybe one or two more will be determined.  But they are just so old and fragile... the combination of original owner, high grade, and a selection of keys usually necessary to what we think of as pedigrees is going to be tough.  Even the Yakimas, being latter-era science-fiction, wouldn't have a lot of what we think of as significant "keys" in them, most sf keys being from the 20s and 30s ( a few classic covers aside).  

The Strasser from December 1933 and 1934 all had Robert Strasser written on them and a code and the Strasser from 1935 to 1941 just had the code on them.

I bought some of those weird tales that you were referring to from that collection in 2018.  I've seen the other batch of horror stories etc that you had and yeah, they are absolutely stunning.

 

Tim, you are correct about other past groups of books in regards to trying to pedigree them, unless they have a code on them or you can get detailed background information, it is going to be hard to pedigree them.

There is one other group of books that may be a pedigree coming up, and possibly file copies as well from the popular files, but you would have to have the lineage, especially if they do not have the stamp on them, which many of them did not.

Edited March 27 by detective35