Is this FF #2 worth restoring before grading or no? 0

[nconsola]

I bought this copy of Fantastic Four #2 and as you can see the cover is absolutely destroyed. In fact whoever owned this book must have coated the front and back cover in Gun Oil a long time ago, at least it smells like gun oil.

So the front and back cover are super crispy like a potato chip, if you bend it at all it will shatter. I actually shattered the 2" section at the top near the spine to the left of the 10 cent logo before I even took the pictures. Basically the front and back cover are super brittle.

The first and last internal page are kinda messed up as they have what looks like mold.

The rest of the pages are in pretty good condition, and once you get to the middle of the book the pages look great, at least to my totally untrained eye.

So my questions are,

1. should I get it restored, or attempt to get it restored or no matter what will it get a .5 and that would be pointless? Not just the cover but the rest of the book as the rest of it looks ok.

2. Has anyone seen this type of treatment to a cover before (soaking in oil), if so can It be reversed? Because I know the cover is trashed but it could be pressed and look nicer, not good, but nicer than it's current look of being in a blender. 

3. Also what is graded, like if all the pages inside are OK will it get a 1 instead of a .5, or because of the state of the cover and how it is not square but kind of bent will that just send it to .5 no matter what. Basically I don't know what all is graded.

Thanks for any help and answers,

Nick

[marvelmaniac]

Congrats on owning an F.F. 2. Nice to have an F.F. 2 in any grade. 

Unfortunately that book is a PR 0.5.  

Recent eBay Sold Auctions For F.F. 2 in PR 0,5...a Graded (NG) Coverless book sold for $207.00, a raw/coverless book with a facsimile cover sold for $166.00, a PR 0.5 - FR 1.0 raw book (not as bad as your copy) missing the pinup sold for $360.00, a coverless raw copy missing one page sold for $219.50.

0.5 POOR (PR):  Back to Top
Sufficiently degraded to the point where there is little or no collector value; easily identified by a complete absence of eye appeal. Brittle almost to the point of turning to dust with a touch, and usually incomplete. Extreme fading may render the cover almost indiscernible. May have extremely severe stains, mildew or heavy cover abrasion to the point that some cover inks are indistinct/absent. Covers may be detached with large chunks missing. Can have extremely ragged edges and extensive creasing. Corners are rounded or virtually absent. Covers may have been defaced with paints, varnishes, glues, oil, indelible markers or dyes, and may have suffered heavy water damage. Can also have extensive amateur repairs such as laminated covers. Extreme spine roll present; can have extremely ragged spines or a complete, book-length split. Staples can be missing or show extreme rust and discoloration. Extensive staple tears and stress lines may be present, as well as extreme rust migration. Paper exhibits moderate to severe brittleness (where the comic book literally falls apart when examined). Extreme acidic odor may be present. Extensive interior tears. Multiple pages, including the centerfold, may be missing that affect readability. Coupons may be cut.

Restoration: IMO...Save your money and buy a nicer copy if that is what you want. 

Having The Book Graded: IMO...If the book is as fragile/brittle as you say, what is the point, it will probably get worse if you have to ship it to CGC, 1st, USPS handles the package, then, many hands at CGC touch the book, then it is encapsulated, packaged and shipped back. Nothing bad can happen there. 

I have nothing against having books graded and encapsulated if it is the right book, not every book is a good candidate for grading. Encapsulating the book does not prevent further damage or offer any more protection than a Mylite and Acid Free Board other than human hands can never touch it again. CGC cases are not airtight nor are they UV protected, they must be stored in the same proper, environmental conditions as raw books. (Constant Temp/Humidity (60 -70 degrees 40%-50% Humidity), away from all UV, not stored near any air vents, not stored near sources of heat and moisture, not stored in a unfinished basement/garage/attic, not left sitting around so Mom could throw it out, Wait, that was me in the 60's, sorry, brain drifted off.  )

Getting that book into a Mylite may prove to be difficult, my suggestion would be a UV protected frame, this way it is not being touched, not being forced into a bag where it may fall apart even more and you can display the book if you so choose without having to touch it or worry about UV.

https://www.bcwsupplies.com/comic-book-showcase-silver-uv

You may also be able to find a Facsimile Cover.

Hope this info was helpful, personally, I would enjoy the book as is.

[Qalyar]

I feel like what happened to this book almost had to be intentionally done, given the degree of cover saturation and the relatively uncontaminated interiors. I cannot for the life of me imagine why, though.

I did some research. I read through Denise Stockman's "Treatment Options for Oil Stains on Paper" and the subsequent conservation research paper from the National Library of Medicine, "Oil on Paper: A Collaborative Conservation Challenge". Bottom line: this cover is in a really bad place, but I think you already knew that. Oil is hydrophobic and displaces the water from the paper structure. That's what results in the embrittlement. Because this has clearly been in its current state for a very long period of time, that situation is severe. Conservation treatments for oil-contaminated paper have focused on heavier-weight (mostly organic) oils because of past library practices, rather than lightweight mineral oils, like what this book was almost certainly exposed to. Even so, the best suggestions from the 2018 paper are really incompatible with restoration here. I don't think this cover would survive multiple rounds of alternating solvent baths on a suction table, and that's even if such a treatment wouldn't also destroy the inks. Also, wood pulp paper (which, obviously, comic book covers are) have generally fared more poorly in these conservation studies than various cotton or linen papers. I... there's just not a lot of good news here. 

Someone with more direct experience in paper restoration might have a different opinion here, but I do not think this damage is realistically reversible. Even if that weren't the case, the degree of conservation work that would be necessary here would be extremely obvious. From a grading standpoint, you'd end up with a book in the same functional condition, but with a restoration label. That does raise a concern, however. Because of the extreme degree of cover embrittlement here, there's a very real possibility that CGC would decline to grade and encapsulate this book, per policy. If you tend towards more pessimistic opinions of CGC's quality controls, there's also the danger than they'd underestimate just how brittle decades of oil contamination have left this paper and accidentally snap the cover in half. Basically, I'm not convinced this is a gradable book.

Oh, and I'm also not convinced that's mold on the interior pages. At least not from the images you provided. It could be, but I suspect it's point migration of stains from what happened to the cover, probably before the bulk of the volatile oil elements had evaporated out.

Obviously, if CGC did opt to encapsulate, this is going straight to 0.5 without passing Go, and I think that would still be the case -- albeit on a purple label -- after any realistic conservation efforts. I'm not sure what I would do if this were my book. If you really want it in a CGC slab, I'd absolutely reach out to them before submitting it, because this is the special handling-est thing I've seen in a long time. I don't think it can safely be loaded into a Mylite. I think you're probably best off with some sort of custom framing solution. 

Regardless, congratulations on your FF2. It's still, for all it's travails, a copy of FF2, which makes it nicer than mine!

Edited May 2 by Qalyar

[Paul Kosnik]

On 5/2/2024 at 12:12 PM, Qalyar said:

I feel like what happened to this book almost had to be intentionally done, given the degree of cover saturation and the relatively uncontaminated interiors. I cannot for the life of me imagine why, though.

I did some research. I read through Denise Stockman's "Treatment Options for Oil Stains on Paper" and the subsequent conservation research paper from the National Library of Medicine, "Oil on Paper: A Collaborative Conservation Challenge". Bottom line: this cover is in a really bad place, but I think you already knew that. Oil is hydrophobic and displaces the water from the paper structure. That's what results in the embrittlement. Because this has clearly been in its current state for a very long period of time, that situation is severe. Conservation treatments for oil-contaminated paper have focused on heavier-weight (mostly organic) oils because of past library practices, rather than lightweight mineral oils, like what this book was almost certainly exposed to. Even so, the best suggestions from the 2018 paper are really incompatible with restoration here. I don't think this cover would survive multiple rounds of alternating solvent baths on a suction table, and that's even if such a treatment wouldn't also destroy the inks. Also, wood pulp paper (which, obviously, comic book covers are) have generally fared more poorly in these conservation studies than various cotton or linen papers. I... there's just not a lot of good news here. 

Someone with more direct experience in paper restoration might have a different opinion here, but I do not think this damage is realistically reversible. Even if that weren't the case, the degree of conservation work that would be necessary here would be extremely obvious. From a grading standpoint, you'd end up with a book in the same functional condition, but with a restoration label. That does raise a concern, however. Because of the extreme degree of cover embrittlement here, there's a very real possibility that CGC would decline to grade and encapsulate this book, per policy. If you tend towards more pessimistic opinions of CGC's quality controls, there's also the danger than they'd underestimate just how brittle decades of oil contamination have left this paper and accidentally snap the cover in half. Basically, I'm not convinced this is a gradable book.

Oh, and I'm also not convinced that's mold on the interior pages. At least not from the images you provided. It could be, but I suspect it's point migration of stains from what happened to the cover, probably before the bulk of the volatile oil elements had evaporated out.

Obviously, if CGC did opt to encapsulate, this is going straight to 0.5 without passing Go, and I think that would still be the case -- albeit on a purple label -- after any realistic conservation efforts. I'm not sure what I would do if this were my book. If you really want it in a CGC slab, I'd absolutely reach out to them before submitting it, because this is the special handling-est thing I've seen in a long time. I don't think it can safely be loaded into a Mylite. I think you're probably best off with some sort of custom framing solution. 

Regardless, congratulations on your FF2. It's still, for all it's travails, a copy of FF2, which makes it nicer than mine!

Super thoughtful assessment!  Completely agree for what it's worth.

[Point Five]

On 5/2/2024 at 1:08 PM, marvelmaniac said:

Restoration: IMO...Save your money and buy a nicer copy if that is what you want. 

Having The Book Graded: IMO...If the book is as fragile/brittle as you say, what is the point

This.  

 

[RockMyAmadeus]

www.herorestoration.com

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[RockMyAmadeus]

[1950's war comics]

that comic book is beyond salvation

[vheflin]

The pages really are nice.

[Neo "The One"]

On 5/2/2024 at 8:16 PM, RockMyAmadeus said:

www.herorestoration.com

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 3 by Neo "The One"

[RockMyAmadeus]

On 5/3/2024 at 7:05 AM, Neo "The One" said:

 

 

[newshane]

Let me be honest here. 

Not even Jesus could save that book. 

Don't bother with restoration or grading. 

Leave it in a Mylar and let it finish consuming itself. 

[Neo "The One"]

On 5/3/2024 at 11:04 AM, RockMyAmadeus said:

@RockMyAmadeus - I mean does everyone even know?  HR could make all of the defects on that book (or any for that matter) DISAPPEAR, that is to say, disappear along with the book itself...

[RockMyAmadeus]

On 5/3/2024 at 10:31 AM, Neo "The One" said:

@RockMyAmadeus - I mean does everyone even know?  HR could make all of the defects on that book (or any for that matter) DISAPPEAR, that is to say, disappear along with the book itself...

[newshane]

On 5/2/2024 at 12:08 PM, marvelmaniac said:

....not stored in a unfinished basement/garage/attic....

The greatest comic collection of all time (Mile High) was stored in an unfinished basement. 

[JollyComics]

Good luck with it.

[grendel013]

On 5/2/2024 at 8:17 PM, RockMyAmadeus said:

I WAS about to fish through the kitchen trash.

[fast eddie]

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,no.

[marvelmaniac]

On 5/3/2024 at 3:10 PM, newshane said:

The greatest comic collection of all time (Mile High) was stored in an unfinished basement. 

That was/is a rare occurrence, you know what would happen if we did that...it's one of "Murphy's" laws.

Some people smoke/drink/do drugs/womanize and eat whatever and however much they want and live to be 100 with no health problems (Keith Richards?), that is not the norm, 99% of folks that do that would have Cholesterol issues, Diabetes, Heart and Lung Disease, High Blood Pressure, Liver/Kidney Disease at the age of 40, are you willing to take that chance?

Last year my sister asked me if I could sell her Romance Comic Books (about 30 books from the 50's/60's/70's) and I agreed, she gave them to me in a bag, when I got home the first one I took from the bag fell apart in my hands from brittleness, the others were not quite so bad. I sent her pics of the small brittle pieces of comic book all over my table just from touching it and I asked her where they were stored, she said "in the attic, why, should I have not put them there?

So, I stand by my statement, no unfinished basements, garages or attics, at least for me and my books.

[nconsola]

Thank everyone who responded, I really didn’t know what to do with this. I especially want to thank both @marvelmaniac and @Qalyar for your amazing detailed responses. I learned a bunch from both of your replies and am super grateful as you both have saved me money. I’m definitely not going to attempt to get the book restored after your suggestions and I think from what you and others have said it may not even be able to be graded by CGC or it just may not be worth it, as the cost of slabbing and shipping will probably eat into any profit I would have made, if not cost more than I could sell it for. This is one of the few "investment" books I have bought recently in order to attempt to sell (to bank enough to one day get a TMNT #1). From what you all have suggested ill just sell the FF as is.