Is anyone else getting books back with warped inner wells? 25 25

[Ninja0215]

On 8/8/2024 at 11:05 AM, MadGenius said:

This "curved inner well is normal" BS needs to stop. IT IS NOT NORMAL. Never was and never will be.

Agreed! The fact that statement was even mentioned makes me want to send it across the way to the lone star state. 

I'm going to send the pictures but what response I receive from there determines what steps I take. I like CGC and would like to continue to use them when I can  BUT.  

[Tec-Tac-Toe]

[LordRahl]

On 8/8/2024 at 7:42 AM, MAR1979 said:

Were your High Value's also Vintage, or 1975-present?

If they were Vintage is any one noticing a pattern in which Vintage seems not affected? If that is the case, no pun intended, then the question is what is different in either the process (including machinery) or physical resources/supplies utilized?  Then couple that with large submitter's of 1975-present book, like JoeyPost, not being affected - means the issue does not have to exist  nor is convex-ing or concave-ing even remotely normal, never mind not even being acceptable in any manner.

 

I can't think of any reason why there would be a difference in the process of slabbing a pre and post 1975 book. I'm fairly sure, 99.9% sure, that it's not the process. So that leaves the materials. I don't know why they would be using different wells but the likelihood of that is far greater than the process of slabbing differing.

[MadGenius]

On 8/8/2024 at 11:11 AM, Ninja0215 said:

Agreed! The fact that statement was even mentioned makes me want to send it across the way to the lone star state. 

I'm going to send the pictures but what response I receive from there determines what steps I take. I like CGC and would like to continue to use them when I can  BUT.  

Either CGC is ignoring the problem and is taking no steps to fix it OR they know it's a problem and are gaslighting their customers to avoid liability. Neither option is good.

[LordRahl]

On 8/8/2024 at 8:29 AM, MadGenius said:

Either CGC is ignoring the problem and is taking no steps to fix it OR they know it's a problem and are gaslighting their customers to avoid liability. Neither option is good.

It was the former at first and I think it's the latter now. There was enough chirping about it here and elsewhere on social media that they pulled their heads out of the sand. Now they are in limiting liability mode. 

[DanJD]

On 8/8/2024 at 9:42 AM, MAR1979 said:

Were your High Value's also Vintage, or 1975-present?

If they were Vintage is any one noticing a pattern in which Vintage seems not affected? If that is the case, no pun intended, then the question is what is different in either the process (including machinery) or physical resources/supplies utilized?  Then couple that with large submitter's of 1975-present book, like JoeyPost, not being affected - means the issue does not have to exist  nor is convex-ing or concave-ing even remotely normal, never mind not even being acceptable in any manner.

 

I think I mentioned this before, but my only other book submitted this year was an Avengers 8.  I got it back at the end of May.  It was bowed like the others.  It was pressed by a third party (not CCS) before submission and was not warped until it came back.  It was graded a 4.5 so it doesn’t matter.  The warping won’t do any more damage on this book, but I mention it as a freshly pressed vintage book example with a warped inner well.  

[Ninja0215]

If this was a rare occurrence and a statement was made ; folks could hold off on submitting and save ourselves the headache of having to deal with it after the fact. We also wouldn't need this thread.  

I guess it's not a surprise it's come down to this. 

[MAY1979]

On 8/8/2024 at 11:47 AM, Ninja0215 said:

If this was a rare occurrence and a statement was made ; folks could hold off on submitting and save ourselves the headache of having to deal with it after the fact. We also wouldn't need this thread.  

I guess it's not a surprise it's come down to this. 

They might have also been able to simply keep books in SFG and GEI a bit longer. No fiscal loss, no books damaged, and no harmed reputation as additional TAT complaints get lost in the normal din.

Edited August 8 by MAR1979

[Ninja0215]

On 8/8/2024 at 11:52 AM, MAR1979 said:

They might have also been able simply keep books in SFG and GEI a bit longer. No fiscal loss, no books damaged, and no harmed reputation as a additional TAT complaints get lost in the normal din.

100%!! Stop the production until they find a solution. 

[MadGenius]

On 8/8/2024 at 11:53 AM, Ninja0215 said:

100%!! Stop the production until they find a solution. 

There is some precedence for this in the grading space, albeit for different reasons.

In 2021 PSA halted card grading submissions so they get caught up on their massive grading backlog. They didn't take any new submissions for several months during this period.

I don't think CGC would need to shut down for that long, but if it took 2-4 weeks to fix this inner well issue then I would think customers would be okay with that kind of delay if it meant ensuring their valuable collectibles wouldn't be damaged by the very service that is meant to protect them.

[Ninja0215]

On 8/8/2024 at 12:08 PM, MadGenius said:

There is some precedence for this in the grading space, albeit for different reasons.

In 2021 PSA halted card grading submissions so they get caught up on their massive grading backlog. They didn't take any new submissions for several months during this period.

I don't think CGC would need to shut down for that long, but if it took 2-4 weeks to fix this inner well issue then I would think customers would be okay with that kind of delay if it meant ensuring their valuable collectibles wouldn't be damaged by the very service that is meant to protect them.

That's why you are the mad genius 

[DaveSFU]

On 8/8/2024 at 10:42 AM, MAR1979 said:

Were your High Value's also Vintage, or 1975-present?

If they were Vintage is any one noticing a pattern in which Vintage seems not affected? If that is the case, no pun intended, then the question is what is different in either the process (including machinery) or physical resources/supplies utilized?  Then couple that with large submitter's of 1975-present book, like JoeyPost, not being affected - means the issue does not have to exist  nor is convex-ing or concave-ing even remotely normal, never mind not even being acceptable in any manner.

 

With regards to Vintage not being curved..   just thinking out loud and dont have examples here to check.   But are the innner dimensions on a vintage slab differently sized to accommodate older books?   Same process but difference in space available?  Again just a thought, nothing to back it up here since i havent slabbed vintage in quite a while

[Tnexus]

On 8/8/2024 at 8:29 AM, MadGenius said:

Either CGC is ignoring the problem and is taking no steps to fix it OR they know it's a problem and are gaslighting their customers to avoid liability. Neither option is good.

Imagine the financial cost if CGC admitted it damaged a huge portion of the books it has graded for 8 months. There's no way they'll admit anything. I assume they're quietly trying to solve this before someone tries to file a class action lawsuit.

[silverseeker]

On 8/8/2024 at 7:42 AM, MAR1979 said:

Were your High Value's also Vintage, or 1975-present?

If they were Vintage is any one noticing a pattern in which Vintage seems not affected? If that is the case, no pun intended, then the question is what is different in either the process (including machinery) or physical resources/supplies utilized?  Then couple that with large submitter's of 1975-present book, like JoeyPost, not being affected - means the issue does not have to exist  nor is convex-ing or concave-ing even remotely normal, never mind not even being acceptable in any manner.

 

My High Value submission was also vintage books...sorry, I should have mentioned that up front.

[MadGenius]

On 8/8/2024 at 1:55 PM, silverseeker said:

My High Value submission was also vintage books...sorry, I should have mentioned that up front.

Interesting. I had a high value reholder done early this year before this inner well issue came to light. Absolutely no problems with the inner well on that book - straight as an arrow.

Is it possible CGC is knowingly using inner wells that can cause problems on lower value books and saving the good stuff for high value items?

[silverseeker]

On 8/8/2024 at 8:45 AM, DanJD said:

I think I mentioned this before, but my only other book submitted this year was an Avengers 8.  I got it back at the end of May.  It was bowed like the others.  It was pressed by a third party (not CCS) before submission and was not warped until it came back.  It was graded a 4.5 so it doesn’t matter.  The warping won’t do any more damage on this book, but I mention it as a freshly pressed vintage book example with a warped inner well.  

I forgot about that...guess that kills any theories I was harboring about the scope of the issue.

[DanJD]

On 8/8/2024 at 1:08 PM, MadGenius said:

Interesting. I had a high value reholder done early this year before this inner well issue came to light. Absolutely no problems with the inner well on that book - straight as an arrow.

Is it possible CGC is knowingly using inner wells that can cause problems on lower value books and saving the good stuff for high value items?

Maybe, but my Avengers 8 was a 5.0 that was cracked open, cleaned and pressed and resubmitted hoping for a grade bump.  I submitted it as a High Value thinking there was a not a high chance of it going down in grade…but it did. All the grader notes improved though.  At a 4.5, it was still right near the high value tier though.  Not sure if these details matter.

edit:  I got this book back a week after this thread started.  It actually shipped on May 14th…same day as this thread.  Geez!

Edited August 8 by DanJD

[silverseeker]

On 8/8/2024 at 8:25 AM, LordRahl said:

I can't think of any reason why there would be a difference in the process of slabbing a pre and post 1975 book. I'm fairly sure, 99.9% sure, that it's not the process. So that leaves the materials. I don't know why they would be using different wells but the likelihood of that is far greater than the process of slabbing differing.

I just compared a Modern book I had graded last summer with one of my recently-graded Vintage books and the wells are the same...my Modern book from back then also did not have a curved well.

[MAY1979]

On 8/8/2024 at 2:35 PM, silverseeker said:

I just compared a Modern book I had graded last summer with one of my recently-graded Vintage books and the wells are the same...my Modern book from back then also did not have a curved well.

Appears the start date, is sometime in Dec 2023

Edited August 8 by MAR1979

[MAY1979]

@Ninja0215 in above post I was referring to the start date of the inner wells causing books to concave