Is anyone else getting books back with warped inner wells? 27 27

[DanJD]

On 9/25/2024 at 9:23 AM, Stefan_W said:

No. 

A picture of a tick is not the same as identifying the cause of that tick. A picture of a tick also does not demonstrate whether a tick is from "unpressing" (e.g., revealing a past flaw that was fixed) or is a new tick. If I showed you a picture of  a dent in my car bumper it does not prove what put that ding there.  

Based on testing it (which can be reproduced by anyone interested in doing so, by the way) it takes more than 4 mm to create new ticks. A bend of 4 mm can sometimes create stress in clean copies that can be spotted if you look really closely at a book. A bend of 4 mm can also "unpress" a book and reveal flaws that were corrected during the pressing process. A bend of 4 mm can make existing ticks look worse in books that are not clean copies. 

The more severe damage that we see in some instances is clearly none of these things which means it is has a cause other than the bend but is still related to what is happening now. I don't know what that cause is but my best guess is the extra space in the case that was meant to lessen newton ring issues freed up space that both allowed inner wells to bend, and allowed movement that leads to shaken comic syndrome. So if you think of it in terms of stats the extra room in the case acts as an antecedent variable. 

Good solutions follow identifying the correctly issues/questions. This is why I have spent so much time and effort trying to sort out the cause rather than jumping to conclusions after seeing effects.  

Your basic testing that did not include different amounts of pressure in various locations does not make your conclusion a fact.  You should update your statement to based on your limited testing, you believe it does not damage the book.  The word fact is definitive.  These are not random pictures.  These are pictures of color breaks appearing after encapsulation scans.  The only variable that could cause these color breaks at these specific locations is the inner well.  Maybe it’s the bend of the well plus shaking during shipping.  The + whatever is irrelevant if the inner well is the starting variable and those ticks would not occur without that warped inner well.  
 

Also, the below statements are all damage caused by the inner well.

“A bend of 4 mm can sometimes create stress in clean copies that can be spotted if you look really closely at a book. A bend of 4 mm can also "unpress" a book and reveal flaws that were corrected during the pressing process. A bend of 4 mm can make existing ticks look worse in books that are not clean copies.”

Edited Wednesday at 03:17 PM by DanJD

[Stefan_W]

On 9/25/2024 at 10:32 AM, Engr62 said:

Since we don't know the exact steps/stages of encapsulation... is it possible that these bends/ticks are being caused after book is sealed into the inner well but before the inner well is sealed into the slab?  For example, are these inner wells being stacked for some period of time before moving along to the slabbing stage?

Yeah, that is an excellent question and was one of my earlier guesses. If the inner well is cooling after being sealed and is not in the hard outer shell there is no limit to how much of a bend is there, and with a 6mm, 8mm, or however much bend you start to see ticks. 

I cant see on the inside of the process, but the reason I rejected this is because it would be spotted and is thus more easily corrected. But that is conjecture and it is certainly an option that fits the existing facts that are available. 

Edit: Just remembered that other reasons I ruled it was out that this explanation does not fit with changes to the shipping process where books were laid flat, or with trials of inserting wedges in slabs to lessen the space. 

Edited Wednesday at 02:38 PM by Stefan_W

[DanJD]

On 9/25/2024 at 9:32 AM, Engr62 said:

Since we don't know the exact steps/stages of encapsulation... is it possible that these bends/ticks are being caused after the book is sealed into the inner well but before the inner well is sealed into the slab?  For example, are these inner wells being stacked for some period of time before moving along to the slabbing stage?

This is possible for some cases for sure.  But that wouldn’t explain the color breaks showing up after some of the encapsulation scans.  So, yes, maybe sometimes before.  Maybe sometimes after.  And this part is important for @Stefan_W, it IS STILL damage caused by the inner well regardless of if it’s before or after encapsulation.  

Edited Wednesday at 03:46 PM by DanJD

[MadGenius]

On 9/25/2024 at 10:32 AM, Stefan_W said:

Did you try doing it? I did with about 50 or so books. 

Yes. The degree of bend required to create weak points and/or stress the spine is VERY possible within the confines of the CGC slab. It takes a very small amount of bend to do this and ANY amount of bend to the inner well is extremely bad for the books within.

Based on what I've seen and experienced, I'm not willing to carry water for a company that is willfully trying to gaslight its customers in order to protect their bottom line by repeating the ridiculous PR statement they issued to deflect liability.

Edited Wednesday at 03:54 PM by MadGenius

[0r0d]

Even if the bend within the well that we're seeing is not the root cause of the damage, they are certainly not helping the situation.  I personally think much of the damage is done separately (either mishandling, or whatever) and possibly causes the permanent bend.  Then the bend continues to apply pressure on the book which certainly leads to some more damage over time.   But, either way, this is the fault of CGC.  The evidence for that is irrefutable by now.

[Stefan_W]

On 9/25/2024 at 11:49 AM, MadGenius said:

Yes. The degree of bend required to create weak points and/or stress the spine is VERY possible within the confines of the CGC slab. It takes a very small amount of bend to do this and ANY amount of bend to the inner well is extremely bad for the books within.

Based on what I've seen and experienced, I'm not willing to carry water for a company that is willfully trying to gaslight its customers in order to protect their bottom line by repeating the ridiculous PR statement they issued to deflect liability.

So you replicated the bend? Please explain your process, and how many books did you use. 

[MadGenius]

On 9/25/2024 at 12:28 PM, Stefan_W said:

So you replicated the bend? Please explain your process, and how many books did you use. 

I was able to take books with clean spines and apply a small amount of pressure to both ends to replicate the banana bend. The degree of bend required to stress the spine is very small. This is basic physics.

[Stefan_W]

On 9/25/2024 at 11:54 AM, 0r0d said:

 But, either way, this is the fault of CGC.  The evidence for that is irrefutable by now.

To the best of my knowledge no one has ever questioned that. 

The point I have continued to make is focusing on the bend is easily refutable and therefore easy to deny that anything is going on. When people say "fix my book it is bent" and CGC replies "that amount of bend does not damage books" CGC is right. Identifying the issue correctly is absolutely critical. 

[Stefan_W]

On 9/25/2024 at 12:37 PM, MadGenius said:

I was able to take books with clean spines and apply a small amount of pressure to both ends to replicate the banana bend. The degree of bend required to stress the spine is very small. This is basic physics.

Sorry, not a good enough answer. 

How did you replicate the bend? How did you measure that bend? And what photos and videos did you take of that process?

[DanJD]

@MadGenius I think you have to have a YouTube channel and video for it to be legit regardless of if the test is flawed.  

[LordRahl]

On 9/25/2024 at 9:39 AM, Stefan_W said:

Sorry, not a good enough answer. 

How did you replicate the bend? How did you measure that bend? And what photos and videos did you take of that process?

When you did your experiment, did you bend the book by itself? Or was it inside an inner well and you bent the inner well with the book inside by 4mm?

[Stefan_W]

On 9/25/2024 at 12:37 PM, MadGenius said:

I was able to take books with clean spines and apply a small amount of pressure to both ends to replicate the banana bend. The degree of bend required to stress the spine is very small. This is basic physics.

I just noticed the bolded part and,....wait..... what? 

The bend is created after a book a laid flat with plastic on top and bottom. The edge where the inner wedge is sealed is close to the spine so it supports it in a way as the book bends. How does putting direct pressure onto the book itself in the way you describe, with nothing top and bottom to recreate the effect of having the inner well there, replicate the curve? 

[Stefan_W]

On 9/25/2024 at 12:51 PM, LordRahl said:

When you did your experiment, did you bend the book by itself? Or was it inside an inner well and you bent the inner well with the book inside by 4mm?

The way it played out was I was trying to figure out a way to replicate the curve in the inner well, and had grand plans of buying things to do so. Then, when I cracked a case and removed a book from a bent inner well, I discovered the bend in the hard plastic remained. So I put a series books into that inner well, a few on camera (not a camera friendly thing so I just did a sample) and the rest off camera. 

At that point I was thinking that there must be some type of shock involved to get the extra stress in the spine that I could not replicate, but that we are seeing in photos. It was before I landed on shaken comic syndrome as a possibility, and at the time I theorized it could be the shaking from transport from CGC. I suspect CGC may have gone down the same logic path because a while after that they shipped book out horizontally in the boxes and put wedges into most of the slabs.

I have not had a shipment since then so I cant crack anything newer open to see what they have been changing since then. 

[DanJD]

On 9/25/2024 at 11:56 AM, Stefan_W said:

The way it played out was I was trying to figure out a way to replicate the curve in the inner well, and had grand plans of buying things to do so. Then, when I cracked a case and removed a book from a bent inner well, I discovered the bend in the hard plastic remained. So I put a series books into that inner well, a few on camera (not a camera friendly thing so I just did a sample) and the rest off camera. 

At that point I was thinking that there must be some type of shock involved to get the extra stress in the spine that I could not replicate, but that we are seeing in photos. It was before I landed on shaken comic syndrome as a possibility, and at the time I theorized it could be the shaking from transport from CGC. I suspect CGC may have gone down the same logic path because a while after that they shipped book out horizontally in the boxes and put wedges into most of the slabs.

I have not had a shipment since then so I cant crack anything newer open to see what they have been changing since then. 

Just to confirm, you tested many books in one single warped inner well that was cracked open enough to get the original book out?

[LordRahl]

On 9/25/2024 at 9:56 AM, Stefan_W said:

The way it played out was I was trying to figure out a way to replicate the curve in the inner well, and had grand plans of buying things to do so. Then, when I cracked a case and removed a book from a bent inner well, I discovered the bend in the hard plastic remained. So I put a series books into that inner well, a few on camera (not a camera friendly thing so I just did a sample) and the rest off camera. 

At that point I was thinking that there must be some type of shock involved to get the extra stress in the spine that I could not replicate, but that we are seeing in photos. It was before I landed on shaken comic syndrome as a possibility, and at the time I theorized it could be the shaking from transport from CGC. I suspect CGC may have gone down the same logic path because a while after that they shipped book out horizontally in the boxes and put wedges into most of the slabs.

I have not had a shipment since then so I cant crack anything newer open to see what they have been changing since then. 

I'm wondering if the well itself is causing the stress. Comics are somewhat pliable. You bend a comic by itself by 4mm and it will just curve but likely it won't be enough to stress the spine. Now you put that same comic between 2 stiff backing boards and bend it, the boards have no give and the book won't be able to just curve. The boards will cause the stress on the book, not the bend itself. I wonder if the wells are acting as a brace and when bent with a book inside the wells are causing the stress? I haven't tested it but in theory it could explain some things.

[Stefan_W]

On 9/25/2024 at 1:02 PM, LordRahl said:

I'm wondering if the well itself is causing the stress. Comics are somewhat pliable. You bend a comic by itself by 4mm and it will just curve but likely it won't be enough to stress the spine. Now you put that same comic between 2 stiff backing boards and bend it, the boards have no give and the book won't be able to just curve. The boards will cause the stress on the book, not the bend itself. I wonder if the wells are acting as a brace and when bent with a book inside the wells are causing the stress? I haven't tested it but in theory it could explain some things.

Yeah, that is totally possible. I dont know how I can test that because once the inner well is cut open from the top the properties you are describing would not be the same for books inside. Similar for sure, but not identical. There is also the venting and such to consider, but that goes beyond my own expertise so I can't even guess if or how those parts of how everything is designed may contribute to what we are seeing. 

I wish I had access to the facility so I could properly test it all out. I'm not saying I would come up with a solution, but I sure would love to rule a few more things out and narrow the focus. 

Edited Wednesday at 05:07 PM by Stefan_W

[Skytripa]

If non bent books have no damage and bent books do wouldn't that be an indication that bent books cause damage(redamage).

[Stefan_W]

On 9/25/2024 at 1:07 PM, Skytripa said:

If non bent books have no damage and bent books do wouldn't that be an indication that bent books cause damage(redamage).

That goes down the correlation versus causation path.

When two things are correlated the first may cause the second, the second may cause the first, they may be unrelated, or a third factor may cause both. I went with the last (which is called an antecedent variable) and suggested the extra space in the hard cases led to both the curve and the damage. But I cant say for sure because we dont know right now what the actual cause is.  

The human brain can be described as a pattern-finding machine. Because it is so good at finding patterns it sometimes sees them where they do not exist. Think of constellations in the sky, where random dots of light are thought to be pictures of things we know. 

Edited Wednesday at 05:13 PM by Stefan_W

[MadGenius]

On 9/25/2024 at 12:56 PM, Stefan_W said:

The way it played out was I was trying to figure out a way to replicate the curve in the inner well, and had grand plans of buying things to do so. Then, when I cracked a case and removed a book from a bent inner well, I discovered the bend in the hard plastic remained. So I put a series books into that inner well, a few on camera (not a camera friendly thing so I just did a sample) and the rest off camera. 

At that point I was thinking that there must be some type of shock involved to get the extra stress in the spine that I could not replicate, but that we are seeing in photos. It was before I landed on shaken comic syndrome as a possibility, and at the time I theorized it could be the shaking from transport from CGC. I suspect CGC may have gone down the same logic path because a while after that they shipped book out horizontally in the boxes and put wedges into most of the slabs.

I have not had a shipment since then so I cant crack anything newer open to see what they have been changing since then. 

This is a flawed process unless you are assuming the wells are already bent prior to encapsulation (I do not believe this). The wells are most likely being bent during the encapsulation process. This is very likely due to the new sealing techniques that are putting too much pressure on the inner well. I do not, and have not, ever subscribed to the "bad batch of inner wells" theory that CGC used to explain what is happening. There is something in the encapsulation process (bad technique, changes in the sealing methods, user error and/or incompetence) that is causing the inner wells to bend. CGC is not paying me to be an R&D consultant, so it's not my job to pinpoint exactly how and why it's happening. That is CGC's job and they are botching it at every turn. 

[lostboys]

Comic books MUST BE FLAT in any type of storage to avoid spine damage.

 

This is day one stuff...

 

What are we even talking about here?

Unreal.