Stan Lee Lied - Your Handy Guide to Every Lie in the 'Origins of Marvel Comics' 9 9

[Prince Namor]

On 9/16/2024 at 2:04 AM, VintageComics said:

One of Marvel's hallmarks, if not their greatest Hallmark that made them so successful was how touching Marvel's stories were to common people.

DC has it's share of touching stories over the years. You may want to ask a DC fan about it.

On 9/16/2024 at 2:04 AM, VintageComics said:

The reason early Marvel was so successful was that their stories were humanly relatable. They took relatable human weaknesses (blindness, meekness, lameness, nerdiness, physical unattractiveness) and turned those qualities into strengths. 

Incidentally, and also slightly off topic, it's also why Captain Marvel outsold Superman in the GA.

Oh it's sales we're judging all this by?

DC outsold Marvel throughout the entire 60's. And in 1970. And in 1971. In fact, their Top 8 comics outsold Marvel's Top 8 comics up until 1978. That was after DC had shot themselves in the foot not once, but twice with price increases in the 70's where their books were regularly more expensive than Marvel. 

On 9/16/2024 at 2:04 AM, VintageComics said:

Meanwhile, during the SA while Marvel was putting out this material with depth, DC was putting out mindless action, schlock and rainbow monsters that were so inferior I couldn't stand them. Not to mention how inferior the art was. DC was still doing stories in the style of Atlas pre-hero stuff (ony with superheroes) and hadn't caught onto Marvel's winning formula until later in the SA. 

Average Monthly Sales of Thor in 1964: 205,575        Average Sales of Curt Swan's Superman in 1964: 800,000

Heck, Aquaman was outselling it at 226,000 average copies a month!

On 9/16/2024 at 2:04 AM, VintageComics said:

These movements within Marvel stories were about human rights, respect, equality, goodness. 

All while the Editor was stealing credit and pay for the writing. How ironic!

On 9/16/2024 at 2:04 AM, VintageComics said:

It was an incredible strategic move of pure genius. These qualities were long term goals that drove all the stories, not just an afterthought and they were the fundamental difference between Marvel and everyone else at the time.

And yet... Individual Marvel book sales went down all through the 70's. 

On 9/16/2024 at 2:04 AM, VintageComics said:

All the Kirby and Ditko art in the world couldn't manipulate people into loving the brand without that emotional factor of the underdog fighting for good.

Kirby's heroes were ALWAYS about good. Try reading some Golden Age books. 

On 9/16/2024 at 2:04 AM, VintageComics said:

So, who corralled together the world class talent AND cultivated that activist culture within the company, and drove those principles throughout Marvel's story telling?

He accepted the work from the freelancers who WOULD work there. Kurtzman, Feldstein, Davis, Wood, Orlando... there were plenty who DID, but decided NOT to stay.

On 9/16/2024 at 2:04 AM, VintageComics said:

Who motivated and drove the bullpen?

There was no bullpen.

On 9/16/2024 at 2:04 AM, VintageComics said:

Who created that culture that was the brand that Marvel became?

The idealized 'culture' was for the fans. And you can't have culture, with the word 'cult'. 

[Prince Namor]

On 9/16/2024 at 1:37 AM, Dr. Haydn said:

 

According to Wikipedia's entry on Joe Simon:

The [Simon and Kirby] partnership ended in 1955 with the comic book industry beset by self-imposed censorship, negative publicity, and a slump in sales. Simon "wanted to do other things and I stuck with comics," Kirby recalled in 1971. "It was fine. There was no reason to continue the partnership and we parted friends."

(Also paraphrasing Wikipedia): It seems that Simon's return to Archie Comics (with Kirby and others) in 1959 was brief. After a few months, Simon left comics to work in commercial art.

Hi Doc!

Kirby never openly spoke about WHY, but there were grumblings he privately made to people close to him over the years. I'll leave that for someone else. 

I have no problem saying that, he saw the partnership as having run it's course by that point.

Kirby's association with Simon at Archie ended after 2 issues of the Fly. Simon stuck around for 2 more issues, leaving after #4.

Kirby also did the cover and interiors of The Double Life of Private Strong #1, and a 6 page story in #2.

[Paul © ® ⚽️💙™]

I wasn't going to comment on this subject specifically again given that feelings seem to be running high, however I do have a genuine question.

I have to preface it so there is no doubt, that this is not a personal attack or criticism of you at all, but I am genuinely intrigued as to what will be your answer to this:

Your book is called what it's called, namely that SL is a liar. But now you have doubled down an hour ago and called him a thief as well. Ok, fair or not fair, lets leave the ramifications of that to one side.

If you believe SL is a thief (much worse than a liar surely?), why then did you not call your book, STAN LEE LIED AND STOLE?

I'm no expert on publishing but a title like that is dynamite and would surely yield many more potential sales.

I'm curious why you didn't because you said it, so you obviously believe it, regardless whether it is true or not.

On 9/15/2024 at 10:33 PM, Prince Namor said:

 

All while the Editor was stealing credit and pay for the writing.

 

[joeypost]

I like comics.

[VintageComics]

On 9/15/2024 at 4:28 PM, jjonahjameson11 said:

On 9/15/2024 at 4:27 PM, grendel013 said:

We should do a poll. We need more polls. But crack has to be an option.

We need Mike to be consistent.  I don’t understand why this sales advert is permitted to be in Comics General

I tend to agree.

If someone else had started the thread to discuss the book out of organic interest, it may have been different. But if the author of the book starts a thread, it's clearly self advertising and falls into a different category. 

[Paul © ® ⚽️💙™]

On 9/15/2024 at 11:42 PM, VintageComics said:

I tend to agree.

If someone else had started the thread to discuss the book out of organic interest, it may have been different. But if the author of the book starts a thread, it's clearly self advertising and falls into a different category. 

Some may even call it spam, but I would never do that.

[VintageComics]

On 9/15/2024 at 5:00 PM, Prince Namor said:

Lee had the entire 50's to make Marvel great and an incredible stable of artists to do it. Why didn't he?

Because it was the 50's and NOT the 60's.

Timing. Luck. A zillion factors.

Culture (and counterculture), sensibilities, drugs of choice - everything was different between the two decades. In every great success, it's like a lightning strike. Timing is the single, greatest factor in every successful venture. 

Would Zepplin has been the world's greatest rock band of all time if they appeared in 1950 or 1980? Likely not. 

You're looking at Marvel as a math equation and assuming all the separate parts can be quantified, but if it can't be replicated, that means it's impossible to dissect fully and authoritatively.

If you can't manifest it yourself, that means it's all just an opinion.

 

 

Edited Sunday at 10:58 PM by VintageComics

[VintageComics]

On 9/15/2024 at 5:17 PM, Prince Namor said:

On 9/15/2024 at 2:49 PM, VintageComics said:

Stan Lee's role was basically the manager of the brand and what I see coming as the end result of Chuck's unbalanced points and rants, is that Marvel would have been just as successful without Stan Lee.

Good luck with that one. 

Again, aimed at ME. 

You ARE the writer of the book, right?

Anyway, I think I've made the points I want to make. I don't need to add anything. 

[RockMyAmadeus]

On 9/15/2024 at 2:00 PM, Prince Namor said:

I think the brand Lee wanted to promote always was the 'Stan Lee' brand. 

[Paul © ® ⚽️💙™]

On 9/15/2024 at 8:36 PM, jjonahjameson11 said:

@CGC Mike

I have no skin in this game but I’m wondering why an announcement for the sale of a book is permitted to be included in the comics general thread rather than in the sales forum, where it belongs, along with all of the other sellers hawking their comics, books, TPB’s, mags, etc?

Thinking about this, you are absolutely right. This has gone under the radar, probably because of the emotive subject matter, but yes it's not a neutral commercial product in that sense.

[Buzzetta]

On 9/15/2024 at 7:23 PM, Paul © ® ⚽️💙™ said:

Thinking about this, you are absolutely right. This has gone under the radar, probably because of the emotive subject matter, but yes it's not a neutral commercial product in that sense.

To be fair there have been prior incidents where members announced the creation of a project, comic book, or something similar and posted it here along with a link for purchase.  I have a comic somewhere from an announcement post in Comics General that I purchased from another board member.  

 

Also, something to consider is that at this point the thread has turned more into discussion rather than an advertisement to sell the book. If this discussion were to take place there it would then be considered threadcrapping while in comics general, support or criticism of the work would be permitted. 

Edited Sunday at 11:30 PM by Buzzetta

[Paul © ® ⚽️💙™]

On 9/16/2024 at 12:30 AM, Buzzetta said:

To be fair there have been prior incidents where members announced the creation of a project, comic book, or something similar and posted it here along with a link for purchase.  I have a comic somewhere from an announcement post in Comics General that I purchased from another board member.  

 

Also, something to consider is that at this point the thread has turned more into discussion rather than an advertisement to sell the book. If this discussion were to take place there it would then be considered threadcrapping while in comics general, support or criticism of the work would be permitted. 

I take your point, and also there's no such thing as bad publicity, right?  

[Jeffro.]

On 9/15/2024 at 6:38 PM, joeypost said:

I like comics.

I like eggs

[Paul © ® ⚽️💙™]

On 9/16/2024 at 12:34 AM, Jeffro. said:

On 9/15/2024 at 11:38 PM, joeypost said:

I like comics.

I like eggs

 

[grendel013]

[CGC Mike]

On 9/15/2024 at 3:36 PM, jjonahjameson11 said:

@CGC Mike

I have no skin in this game but I’m wondering why an announcement for the sale of a book is permitted to be included in the comics general thread rather than in the sales forum, where it belongs, along with all of the other sellers hawking their comics, books, TPB’s, mags, etc?

Other authors of comic books have been allowed to post their creation in comics general, and links to purchase copies.  That is why I left this thread here.

On 9/15/2024 at 4:28 PM, jjonahjameson11 said:

We need Mike to be consistent.  I don’t understand why this sales advert is permitted to be in Comics General

I am being consistent.

[CGC Mike]

[newshane]

I have no problem with this thread being in Comic General. 

But I am a nobody. 

[fast eddie]

Seems to me this thread is exactly where it belongs,,,,,,,,

[KCOComics]

On 9/15/2024 at 6:57 PM, VintageComics said:

Because it was the 50's and NOT the 60's.

Timing. Luck. A zillion factors.

Culture (and counterculture), sensibilities, drugs of choice - everything was different between the two decades. In every great success, it's like a lightning strike. Timing is the single, greatest factor in every successful venture. 

Would Zepplin has been the world's greatest rock band of all time if they appeared in 1950 or 1980? Likely not. 

You're looking at Marvel as a math equation and assuming all the separate parts can be quantified, but if it can't be replicated, that means it's impossible to dissect fully and authoritatively.

If you can't manifest it yourself, that means it's all just an opinion.

 

 

Roy - you've been very on point this discussion and I pretty much agree with everything you've said. 

 

@Prince Namor congratulations on the new book! 

I don't agree with your position - but I greatly admire your research and passion for the topic. 

I'll buy a copy, though I'm not sure I need to read it. I feel like I've been reading it for 6 years on these forums.