Stan Lee Lied - Your Handy Guide to Every Lie in the 'Origins of Marvel Comics' 9 9

[thehumantorch]

On 9/18/2024 at 6:47 PM, Paul © ® ⚽️💙™ said:

Put me down for one of these Dave.  

Can you do it in Everton Blue please?  

 

 

One Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtleneck coming right up.  Is it just me or is every single English guy out there named Paul?

[Lazyboy]

On 9/16/2024 at 7:24 PM, bc said:

While several issues in the early 1990s would have sales exceeding 1 million copies, none of the year-long averages for those series topped that figure.

None published in Statements of Ownership, sure. However, that's only because the first SoO for X-Men (v.2) didn't cover the earliest issues of the title, which absolutely eclipsed the 1 million average copies mark for the first 12 issues (and fell only 32,000 short for the reported period). The first Spider-Man SoO was also very close at 896,550 average sales and, again, did not cover the beginning of the series.

[Paul © ® ⚽️💙™]

On 9/19/2024 at 5:16 AM, thehumantorch said:

One Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtleneck coming right up.  Is it just me or is every single English guy out there named Paul?

I'm not single. I have a filipino houseboy,  a french maid and a hamster.  Need a companion?.......

 

[Prince Namor]

On 9/19/2024 at 11:13 AM, thehumantorch said:

And I think that's where we disagree.  Without Stan Lee - or Kirby - the Marvel Universe wouldn't have been created.  The collaboration of the two somehow resulted in the birth of a universe. 

Kirby would've always created. He always did. Stan? No so much.

On 9/19/2024 at 11:13 AM, thehumantorch said:

And let's be real here;  Stan Lee prior to the Marvel Explosion was essentially a hack writing unremarkable repetitive turd-like stories.  And prior to the Marvel Explosion Kirby, as much as I love his work, couldn't hold a candle to the greats like Schomburg, LB Cole, Matt Baker, Wally Wood, or a dozen other artists. 

All exceptional artists. Kirby's success in the 40's and 50's speaks for itself. There's a reason that stuff is still in print and people read it.

On 9/19/2024 at 11:13 AM, thehumantorch said:

Even the first dozen or more issues of FF had charm but the art was bloody awful, the stories were lame, and the villains were essentially monsters or aliens or recycled characters from the past.  Early FF couldn't hold a candle to the art and writing of the work that EC had put out 10 years earlier.

Well... the early FF was when Stan was trying to force his editorial view on it the most. When he let up it really exploded. They were lucky... the Hulk was the same way - Lee trying to inforce his will upon Kirby's ideas and that book was a mess and evetually canceled. 

As far as the art...

Kirby went from doing 50+ pages a month and 6 covers in the monster years to doing 100 pages a month with up to 10 covers during the early superhero days. The work was obviously going to suffer.

At EC they had a full staff and those guys might do 20 to 30 pages (or even 10 or less) a month with one cover. It's a lot easier to knock out your best work when you have that much time. The busiest artist on your list was probably Matt Baker and he did what? Maybe he hit 40 pages in a month once or twice in his career?

Kirby's art improved when he a) reduced the number of books he was working, b) stopped doing layouts for others (i.e. writing the story and laying it out) and c) when Lee was busy doing other work and let him do his own thing mostly. In other words, when he had time... his artwork was some of the best he ever did. And that was STILL while doing at least 66 pages a month and 4 covers!

On 9/19/2024 at 11:13 AM, thehumantorch said:

I suspect that Kirby hit his prime when Lee let him plot the stories and let his imagination soar.  There's a world of difference between FF 3 and FF 45 in the quality and originality of the work.

Yep. 

[Paul © ® ⚽️💙™]

On 9/19/2024 at 5:13 AM, thehumantorch said:

 And prior to the Marvel Explosion Kirby, as much as I love his work, couldn't hold a candle to the greats like Schomburg, LB Cole, Matt Baker, Wally Wood, or a dozen other artists.  Even the first dozen or more issues of FF had charm but the art was bloody awful, the stories were lame, and the villains were essentially monsters or aliens or recycled characters from the past. 

This...but respectfully you forgot to mention that all his faces looked the same.

I mean they do!

Kirby ain't all that. Give me the quirkiness of Wolverton, Matt Fox and the purity of Wood any day of the week. Worlds of difference. But hey art is subjective I get it, but Kirby?

Don't think so...sorry Kirby zombies but no.  

Edited 17 hours ago by Paul © ® ⚽️💙™

[comicwiz]

On 9/19/2024 at 12:52 AM, Prince Namor said:

As far as the art...

Kirby went from doing 50+ pages a month and 6 covers in the monster years to doing 100 pages a month with up to 10 covers during the early superhero days. The work was obviously going to suffer.

At EC they had a full staff and those guys might do 20 to 30 pages (or even 10 or less) a month with one cover. It's a lot easier to knock out your best work when you have that much time. The busiest artist on your list was probably Matt Baker and he did what? Maybe he hit 40 pages in a month once or twice in his career?

Kirby's art improved when he a) reduced the number of books he was working, b) stopped doing layouts for others (i.e. writing the story and laying it out) and c) when Lee was busy doing other work and let him do his own thing mostly. In other words, when he had time... his artwork was some of the best he ever did. And that was STILL while doing at least 66 pages a month and 4 covers!

I would argue no matter how high the King's output got, there was never a lacking consistency in quality. No one came close, and never will. Others doing a quarter of his output began showing a slip on quality when they were tasked to do a series, too many names to list here. Or even "cover-only" artists that still only cranked out a cover or two at most eventually began to reveal mediocre results, often without having anywhere near the constraints of handling multiple tasks or projects. No one has ever come up with such a unique style while maintaining consistent quality for the speed to which he had to crank out art. If there was ever any reliable barometer to advance this notion, it's the value Kirby's art attains as a titan in the OA market, and to diminish his title as King by comparing him to anyone is perhaps as big a larceny as the lacking acknowledgement, credit and pay he had to endure as an artist working under Lee.

 

Edited 9 hours ago by comicwiz

[FlyingDonut]

On 9/15/2024 at 7:34 PM, Jeffro. said:

I like eggs

I had some eggs this morning while pricing comics for Baltimore to sell to @joeypost. The circle of life is complete.

[joeypost]

On 9/19/2024 at 8:15 AM, FlyingDonut said:

I had some eggs this morning while pricing comics for Baltimore to sell to @joeypost. The circle of life is complete.

🎉🎊🎉

[Iconic1s]

@Prince Namor I just ordered a copy and it will arrive Sunday... I can't wait to dig into it.

I definitely have my own opinion... was once a Stan Lee die-hard (had a few books signed by him too) and had drank the kool-aid.  When I initially heard rumors that all the tall tales may not be 100% accurate I started doing some of my own research.  As I learned more my opinion changed... the tipping point for me was a video where Alan Moore discussed the topic and Jack's vs Stan's contribution.  That was it for me and I sold my Lee signed books.  I honestly consider any book signed by him defaced at this point and hate when I see some high grade grail with that crooked scribble across the cover.

It sounds like your book may tell me what I want to hear and I am totally cool with that... thanks for putting in the work on it!

[jsilverjanet]

this thread has inspired me to write a book called "comic fans butthurt - the consequences of when heroes fall"

foreword by @greggy

[Prince Namor]

On 9/19/2024 at 7:44 PM, Iconic1s said:

@Prince Namor I just ordered a copy and it will arrive Sunday... I can't wait to dig into it.

I definitely have my own opinion... was once a Stan Lee die-hard (had a few books signed by him too) and had drank the kool-aid.  When I initially heard rumors that all the tall tales may not be 100% accurate I started doing some of my own research.  As I learned more my opinion changed... the tipping point for me was a video where Alan Moore discussed the topic and Jack's vs Stan's contribution.  That was it for me and I sold my Lee signed books.  I honestly consider any book signed by him defaced at this point and hate when I see some high grade grail with that crooked scribble across the cover.

It sounds like your book may tell me what I want to hear and I am totally cool with that... thanks for putting in the work on it!

I appreciate that! 

But as I like to say... the people who were there and the facts we know about are the one's actually telling you what happened - all I did was collect the inofmation and publish it.

[Ken Aldred]

On 9/19/2024 at 12:18 AM, VintageComics said:

Another way to look at this is the Silver Surfer #1-18 run. 

Who was responsible for the lovesick, humanitarian angle that the Silver Surfer was known for during this run (and in my opinion made this run great)?

I thought it was okay for the first few issues, and then got tediously whiny and one-note.

[Ken Aldred]

On 9/19/2024 at 5:16 AM, thehumantorch said:

One Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtleneck coming right up.  Is it just me or is every single English guy out there named Paul?

The joke at one stage here was that we were all called Gary. It seemed common.

[Ken Aldred]

On 9/19/2024 at 5:52 AM, Prince Namor said:

Kirby went from doing 50+ pages a month and 6 covers in the monster years to doing 100 pages a month with up to 10 covers during the early superhero days. The work was obviously going to suffer

Possibly why he changed to a more open, less detailed style in the mid-60s, to compensate for the workload. More exaggerated figurework.  Blockier - thinking about his characters’ feet there, for example. I noticed that drastic transition particularly so in his Captain America stories in Tales of Suspense.

Edited 7 hours ago by Ken Aldred

[Ken Aldred]

On 9/19/2024 at 1:58 PM, jsilverjanet said:

this thread has inspired me to write a book called "comic fans butthurt - the consequences of when heroes fall"

foreword by @greggy

Great title. It really captures all of the angst we love to see in our comic books.

[Paul © ® ⚽️💙™]

On 9/19/2024 at 2:01 PM, Prince Namor said:

all I did was collect the inofmation

I hope you paid for a proof reader...... 

[VintageComics]

On 9/19/2024 at 11:09 AM, Ken Aldred said:

On 9/19/2024 at 12:52 AM, Prince Namor said:

Kirby went from doing 50+ pages a month and 6 covers in the monster years to doing 100 pages a month with up to 10 covers during the early superhero days. The work was obviously going to suffer

Possibly why he changed to a more open, less detailed style in the mid-60s, to compensate for the workload. More exaggerated figurework.  Blockier - thinking about his characters’ feet there, for example. I noticed that drastic transition particularly so in his Captain America stories in Tales of Suspense.

Frankly, because of Kirby's lack of realism in his Silver Age work I never liked it growing up, and this is probably because I was exposed to him when he was pumping volume.

His earlier work before Marvel seemed better, but again, not a huge fan of his blockiness in general. 

Ironically, Miller went from realism to blockiness and it didn't bother me as much, probably because I was hooked in Miller's earlier stuff before I was exposed to his later stuff, so I already had an emotional attachment to Miller. 

I can see the appeal of Kirby in his sequential story telling, but I still don't like the way he draws figures (and particularly women). 

On 9/19/2024 at 7:46 AM, comicwiz said:

I would argue no matter how high the King's output got, there was never a lacking consistency in quality. No one came close, and never will. Others doing a quarter of his output began showing a slip on quality when they were tasked to do a series, too many names to list here. Or even "cover-only" artists that still only cranked out a cover or two at most eventually began to reveal mediocre results, often without having anywhere near the constraints of handling multiple tasks or projects. No one has ever come up with such a unique style while maintaining consistent quality for the speed to which he had to crank out art. If there was ever any reliable barometer to advance this notion, it's the value Kirby's art attains as a titan in the OA market, and to diminish his title as King by comparing him to anyone is perhaps as big a larceny as the lacking acknowledgement, credit and pay he had to endure as an artist working under Lee.

Would he still be King if his body of work was much smaller but had more attention to detail?

[namisgr]

On 9/19/2024 at 10:57 AM, Ken Aldred said:

The joke at one stage here was that we were all called Gary. It seemed common.

Now all the Ians, Nigels, and Trevors are being short-changed.  

[jimjum12]

On 9/19/2024 at 12:09 PM, VintageComics said:

Ironically, Miller went from realism to blockiness and it didn't bother me as much, probably because I was hooked in Miller's earlier stuff before I was exposed to his later stuff, so I already had an emotional attachment to Miller. 

Miller was also *ahem* actually writing his own stuff, and it showed. GOD BLESS ...

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)

[namisgr]

On 9/19/2024 at 12:30 PM, Ken Aldred said:

Nigel seems to be dying out.

They've been making plans for him.