Slightly Brittle Pages or Restored? 1 1

[LowGradeBronze]

Restored over brittle. Brittle makes me sad. 

[VintageComics]

On 9/24/2024 at 1:59 PM, Silver Surfer said:

Yup there is a perfect example of a book I would still buy at the right price. Actually the book I’m looking at has a similar classic cover and I’m pretty sure I briefly owned it maybe 10+ years ago. It was slightly brittle back then but I noticed that there are now little pieces of paper floating around inside the slab so that gives me pause. If it was a few thousand dollars cheaper I would still consider it but I might have to go the restored route instead.

 

Food for thought:

We had this discussion about restored vs books with resto removed in various threads, and this is yet another reason people need to understand restoration better and not view it as a negative thing.

It was negative when it was done without disclosure.

It's a positive when done for the right reason.

If a brittle book gets restored and then becomes worth less than what it was worth when brittle, that makes no sense, right?

Because you still have the same book preserved but now it's going to last longer. 

We're nearly 100 years into comics and we don't have the luxury anymore of just ignoring time. 

[vheflin]

All this paper needs to be deacidified but there doesn't seem to be a good method.

[Professor K]

On 9/24/2024 at 1:34 PM, VintageComics said:

For some books you have no choice, and future generations will eventually have no choice. The acid is in the paper and there's no way of stopping it's degradation. You can only slow it down. 

For rare, irreplaceable books like Motion Pictures Funnies Weekly #1, every known copy is brittle except for the restored ones, and they will HAVE to be restored at some point to preserve them. 

Some are pieces of history that are irreplaceable, so what are your options?

I know this sounds like I'm trying to be a wise guy but by that logic wouldn't that mean there would come a point when restored books would need to be re-restored? And at some point re-re-restored, eventually re-re-re-re-re-restored? I mean eventually in the further further further further further future. They will always be in a state of degradation is what you are saying? 

[VintageComics]

On 9/24/2024 at 2:40 PM, Professor K said:

I know this sounds like I'm trying to be a wise guy but by that logic wouldn't that mean there would come a point when restored books would need to be re-restored? And at some point re-re-restored, eventually re-re-re-re-re-restored? I mean eventually in the further further further further further future. They will always be in a state of degradation is what you are saying? 

Simple answer is found in this movie. 

But seriously, everything is in a state of degradation, so the simple answer is yes. Absolutely. 

How long can newsprint last when cared for? Well, long...100s of years even, but MOST comics weren't cared for properly from new and a lot of irreversible degradation has happened for the majority of them.

Eventually, every comic will need some sort of support to help preserve it. 

[VintageComics]

On 9/24/2024 at 2:40 PM, vheflin said:

All this paper needs to be deacidified but there doesn't seem to be a good method.

About 15 years ago I spent a lot of time learning about this, and from one of my conversations with Tracey Heft sprouted a thread about this topic.

It was called "Talk to me about deacidification" and the thread was basically ignored. A few people chimed in and I think the gist was that I was overreacting or that it was unnecessary...something along those lines. 

I let the thread fade because I figured time would tell. 

Well, we're not any younger...

I think there's a resistance for various reasons. Some people are "unrestored purists" and they hate resto. A few big, OG dealers / collectors have told me that in no uncertain terms. Well, that's an easy position to take when you have that luxury, but not everyone does and eventually, it won't be a luxury most will have. 

I think some people just see it as unnecessary, but that's unrealistic as they also don't seem to understand that the degradation of paper is permanent and inevitable. 

What will eventually need to happen is great care will be needed to preserve the artifacts of the past or someone's highest graded Action #1 just won't stay in the same shape. 

There are various methods, from disassembly and chemical baths to simple, unintrusive surface sprays but these are all things the hobby should be discussing. These treatments de-acidify the ph of the paper, slowing down the aging process that the acids in the paper are causing. 

This isn't meant to alarm everyone. Your books are not going to turn to dust soon, and likely not even in your lifetime if stored properly, but certainly some discussion is going to need to be had at some point. 

Time is undefeated. 

Edited September 24 by VintageComics

[Primetime]

On 9/24/2024 at 10:34 AM, VintageComics said:

For some books you have no choice, and future generations will eventually have no choice. The acid is in the paper and there's no way of stopping it's degradation. You can only slow it down. 

For rare, irreplaceable books like Motion Pictures Funnies Weekly #1, every known copy is brittle except for the restored ones, and they will HAVE to be restored at some point to preserve them. 

Some are pieces of history that are irreplaceable, so what are your options?

The 9 is a gem 💎 regardless 👍🏽

[Sauce Dog]

Both, as I can remove or upgrade the restoration (ideally looking for books I can shift into a Conserved grade) or with PQ I find page quality can change on regrading depending on CGC mood that day, so sometimes a 'brittle' book might come back much better; unless it is literally disintegrating inside the slab I look at those as a being a super cheap pick up of grail books (one or two flakes is not surprising, as you see those sometimes in non-brittle books too, but dust everywhere is a major red flag to avoid as it means if you sell it you'll get an unhappy buyer after shipping it and shaking it apart)

Last purchase I was happy to buy for cheap since it presented very well (decent condition of cover art and color strike).

[Sauce Dog]

and I agree with @VintageComics , every single paper collectible SHOULD be treated for long term preservation. Full stop.

Avoiding conservation is the silliest thing one could do for lots of these major books, but many 'purists' preferring not to touch the books so that they remain Universal are honestly only thinking about their short term gain / clout (as who wants to have the highest, best copy of a book if it is now Conserved label?). The stigma is changing, slowly, but for many of these collectibles it will be too late once the next generation gets ahold of them - the damage will be done and the work required then might end up being more than would have been needed had these books been treated correctly earlier.

I don't have a big collection, but I've made sure that my biggest grails get conserved for the longterm (for example my favourite biggest book Adventure Comics #48 I bought as an 1.8 Universal, but I knew it needed love if I wanted to be sure it survived my lifetime without further degradation). The grade bump it got as a result of the work was a bonus, but not the primary reason of doing it.

[VintageComics]

On 9/24/2024 at 7:20 PM, Sauce Dog said:

and I agree with @VintageComics , every single paper collectible SHOULD be treated for long term preservation. Full stop.

Now if only you could answer your PMs. 

[sfcityduck]

On 9/24/2024 at 11:34 AM, VintageComics said:

Food for thought:

We had this discussion about restored vs books with resto removed in various threads, and this is yet another reason people need to understand restoration better and not view it as a negative thing.

It was negative when it was done without disclosure.

It's a positive when done for the right reason.

If a brittle book gets restored and then becomes worth less than what it was worth when brittle, that makes no sense, right?

Because you still have the same book preserved but now it's going to last longer. 

We're nearly 100 years into comics and we don't have the luxury anymore of just ignoring time. 

I'm fairly sure I'm one of very few people on this site, maybe the only, who sold a book, literally a very early graphic novel, subject to the condition that book be submitted for restoration. Why? Because being a collector of paper fine art collectibles, I've had very good experiences with museum quality conservators (I mean that literally - the people museums hire to conserve fine art on paper). And the book I was selling was that very rare combination of very important, very rare, singular in its availability to the collector's market, and it needed treatment. Fortunately, the buyer understood the need, engaged in the process, including visiting the art conservator's studio, before committing to the transaction, and became comfortable with the idea. I believe it inevitable that a consensus will eventually form that disclosed restoration is not a negative - its just a factor to be considered in determining price. And at some point, the realization for a lot of folks might be - I'd rather have a book already restored than take on a book where I'll have to undertake the cost and hassle of overseeing the restoration to ensure it doesn't turn to dust in my hands.

The book I'm talking about:

 

Edited September 25 by sfcityduck

[Darwination]

A book with a brittle spine can go from looking like a nice mid-grade copy to literally a pile of pages (split neatly at the spine) with just a little handling.  I've seen it happen many times.

If you have a very brittle book, that's cool, you'd just better not hope to ever handle the thing.  Not a big deal with a book in a box, I suppose.  But those books in boxes are degrading too -

[Robot Man]

To me, brittle books are a deal killing no no. As are books with mold or excessive tape. Just don’t want them at any price.

And this comes from someone with every thing from coverless, incomplete all the way up to super high grade pedigree books. I even have a few rat chewed books! 

I love comics and love to handle and read all of them. If I have a crumbling comic or pulp, away it goes asap. 

[*paull*]

I would almost never buy a brittle book, whether it's a comic, pulp or any other paper item. It would have to be something very unusual to break that rule. A very rare and properly "conserved" book, I would consider. But I won't buy a book with added pieces, infill, color touch or leafcasting.

[Silver Surfer]

I tend to agree but Roy’s MMC # 9 example would be hard to pass on. 

[Joseph Ragno]

Question regarding graded single pages:  is a single page less likely to age poorly compared to a whole book where pages are touching other pages?

[fifties]

I believe that the climate a book has lived in has a great deal to do with any eventual deterioration.  I have some 3D comics I had bought off the news stand in the fall of 1953, saved them, and never sleeved them in Mylar bags until almost 50 years later.  The pages are off white and supple.  Of course here in Southern California, the weather is mild and dry, the perfect conditions for preservation.

In one of his Photo Journal guides, Ernie Gerber gave a pretty extensive treatise about the effects of time on paper deterioration.  i.e., once it starts, ain't no stopping it as it continually gets worse.

[D84]

On 9/24/2024 at 6:20 PM, Sauce Dog said:

and I agree with @VintageComics , every single paper collectible SHOULD be treated for long term preservation. Full stop.

Avoiding conservation is the silliest thing one could do for lots of these major books, but many 'purists' preferring not to touch the books so that they remain Universal are honestly only thinking about their short term gain / clout (as who wants to have the highest, best copy of a book if it is now Conserved label?). The stigma is changing, slowly, but for many of these collectibles it will be too late once the next generation gets ahold of them - the damage will be done and the work required then might end up being more than would have been needed had these books been treated correctly earlier.

I don't have a big collection, but I've made sure that my biggest grails get conserved for the longterm (for example my favourite biggest book Adventure Comics #48 I bought as an 1.8 Universal, but I knew it needed love if I wanted to be sure it survived my lifetime without further degradation). The grade bump it got as a result of the work was a bonus, but not the primary reason of doing it.

I agree. My Tec 33 is currently being conserved. Honestly, I couldn't care less if it hurts the monetary value. At least, I know the copy will last.

[VintageComics]

On 9/27/2024 at 9:30 PM, D84 said:

On 9/24/2024 at 7:20 PM, Sauce Dog said:

and I agree with @VintageComics , every single paper collectible SHOULD be treated for long term preservation. Full stop.

Avoiding conservation is the silliest thing one could do for lots of these major books, but many 'purists' preferring not to touch the books so that they remain Universal are honestly only thinking about their short term gain / clout (as who wants to have the highest, best copy of a book if it is now Conserved label?). The stigma is changing, slowly, but for many of these collectibles it will be too late once the next generation gets ahold of them - the damage will be done and the work required then might end up being more than would have been needed had these books been treated correctly earlier.

I don't have a big collection, but I've made sure that my biggest grails get conserved for the longterm (for example my favourite biggest book Adventure Comics #48 I bought as an 1.8 Universal, but I knew it needed love if I wanted to be sure it survived my lifetime without further degradation). The grade bump it got as a result of the work was a bonus, but not the primary reason of doing it.

Expand  

I agree. My Tec 33 is currently being conserved. Honestly, I couldn't care less if it hurts the monetary value. At least, I know the copy will last.

Here's the thing.

The drop in value isn't logical.

It's the same book with the same parts with some reinforcement or color, or chemicals to keep it supple and from disintegrating. 

If it was a 1.0 or a 1.5 or a 2.5 before, it should be worth the same after the resto.

The fact that it doesn't fetch the same money MAKES NO SENSE. 

I think that's where the market is going to evolve, closing that price gap.

[Sauce Dog]

On 9/28/2024 at 12:26 AM, VintageComics said:

Here's the thing.

The drop in value isn't logical.

It's the same book with the same parts with some reinforcement or color, or chemicals to keep it supple and from disintegrating. 

If it was a 1.0 or a 1.5 or a 2.5 before, it should be worth the same after the resto.

The fact that it doesn't fetch the same money MAKES NO SENSE. 

I think that's where the market is going to evolve, closing that price gap.

This is actually how I set possible values of my Restored/Conserved books, by making note what they were before the work and setting that as the lowest possible floor price. Are these books going to be regarded as worth 'less' when compared to a non-restored book of the same new higher grade, sure, but they will never be less than what they were before. 

My Adventure #48 above started as a Universal 1.8, so that is how much I regard it to be worth (as you can remove the work and get back to that if you like). Same with my X-Men #1, it started as an NG/0.5 pile of scraps and in order to keep things simple I set my floor value for this book to whatever the GPA is for that 0.5 grade - I'm pretty sure nobody in their right mind would argue this Conserved 2.5 is worth less than a Universal NG/0.5.