CGC Comic book market

[Norrin_Radd]

...Collecting is a marathon, not a sprint.

 

I am most impressed. I hope you don't mind if I use it in my sig line.

 

It's an official cliché according to ClichéSite.com.

[divad]

I do not want to single out any specific dealers, but it seems odd to me that the people who traffic in CGC books are almost exclusively sellers and are not even remotely interested in buying any of the same books they are selling. Let me use an example of to illustrate my point. Book A is listed on a dealers website for $1000 I offer $800 and get laughed at. I end up buying the exact same book for my price of $800 from someone else. Another copy of the same book comes up for sale on EBAY and I end up purchasing it for $450. If the dealer truly believed in his product and that it was worth $1000, why would he allow another copy to sell in a public forum for less than half his asking price?.

 

It all depends on what someone has into a book. For example, if I buy a book for $400, then have it graded, and can sell it for $800, why not? But selling it for $500, isn't worth my time, expertise and effort.

 

If I buy the same book for $150, and grade it, I can easily sell it for $500, as my profit margin is much higher and my net profit is nearly the same . . .

 

Get it?

[the blob]

"And the moral to the story is if you wait long enough, the books you are looking for will always show up on Ebay, and they will always be cheaper. "

 

i wouldn't assume this for golden age stuff.

 

and if everyone followed your advice those cheap copies would get bid up and wouldn't be so cheap anymore.

[whomerjay]

I do not want to single out any specific dealers, but it seems odd to me that the people who traffic in CGC books are almost exclusively sellers and are not even remotely interested in buying any of the same books they are selling. Let me use an example of to illustrate my point. Book A is listed on a dealers website for $1000 I offer $800 and get laughed at. I end up buying the exact same book for my price of $800 from someone else. Another copy of the same book comes up for sale on EBAY and I end up purchasing it for $450. If the dealer truly believed in his product and that it was worth $1000, why would he allow another copy to sell in a public forum for less than half his asking price?.

 

One explanation is that I know dealers, of both comics and sports cards, who have so much inventory that it would take 5 lifetimes for them to sell it given their current method of operation. And a few seem to have EVERYTHING 5 deep. Buying makes no sense to them.

 

 

The other explanation is that they get so much offered to them that waht might seem like a good buy price actually isn't for them- they only ahve so much $ to spend.

[Mushroom]

So what you're suggesting is that dealers should be propping up the market by buying items that they don't really need, just to record a sale and have the 'value' of the book justified?

 

There are plenty of people on and off these boards who do just that.....

[JLA_ALL_THE_WAY]

I am of the philosophy that if an item I am trying to sell (and hasn't) is now being offered elsewhere for substantially less -50% or more- you better believe I'm buying it (if I can afford it) & knocking my original item down...regardless of my buy amount. Especially if I'm 5 DEEP. You're a seller, right? So sell! Sell for less & take a smaller profit now, or hold onto it and hope that demand/price increases in the future...? What kind of business model is that??

 

Standing your ground in business seems foolish if that ground is quicksand.....

 

Rick

[skybolt]

I am of the philosophy that if an item I am trying to sell (and hasn't) is now being offered elsewhere for substantially less -50% or more- you better believe I'm buying it (if I can afford it) & knocking my original item down...regardless of my buy amount. Especially if I'm 5 DEEP. You're a seller, right? So sell! Sell for less & take a smaller profit now, or hold onto it and hope that demand/price increases in the future...? What kind of business model is that??

 

Standing your ground in business seems foolish if that ground is quicksand.....

 

Rick

 

That's true, but for books averaging less than $100, the market can fluctuate.

 

For example, I sold my Avengers #100 8.5 CGC graded copy on Ebay for $50. That same week, another copy sold on ComicLink for $90. Same thing with my ASM #300 8.5 copy that sold for $25 on Ebay vs. $50 on CL. Again the same week. When we're dealing with $29 slabbing fees for economies it's hard for people to sell books at Ebay's FMV unless they need the money.

 

Now if it was a $1,000 vs. $450 transaction as initially stated, then it would make sense for the dealer to accept the $800, since they can easily pick-up another copy off Ebay for $200 less.

[whomerjay]

I am of the philosophy that if an item I am trying to sell (and hasn't) is now being offered elsewhere for substantially less -50% or more- you better believe I'm buying it (if I can afford it) & knocking my original item down...regardless of my buy amount. Especially if I'm 5 DEEP. You're a seller, right? So sell! Sell for less & take a smaller profit now, or hold onto it and hope that demand/price increases in the future...? What kind of business model is that??

 

Standing your ground in business seems foolish if that ground is quicksand.....

 

Rick

 

Not saying that their philosophy is right, just that's how some think.

 

I agree with some of what you say, in that it's smart to cut prices to be in step and competitive with the market. But you need to be careful about buying a book that was hot yesterday but potentially dead tomorrrow, regardless of the price.

[FFB]

My point is, the connotation of a dealer ( at least in the corporate world which I come from) means that you would be willing to buy any product which you are selling (at a given price) I have seen a number of threads where dealers lament that they can not sell their product at the prices they want. Is it maybe because they are not willing to support the hobby which they claim to make a living from? Their asking price was derived from something other than thin air (I hope) so they believe the comic is worth that. Well, then isn't another copy of the same comic worth at least half that?

 

Depends on the profit margin they are shooting for. To me or you, it may be enough of a profit to buy something I'm already selling for $100 at $50 if I know I have definite buyers at $100. Maybe for some comic dealers, this may not be enough of a profit to overcome their "risk"

 

I am not talking about a book that has sat on your website for a year at $100 I am talking about a book that you listed for $100, was offered $80 and passed and then let another identical copy sell for $45 all within a two week time frame. Do not misunderstand me, I am happy, to purchase the second book for $45 even though I just bought one for $80, Now I have two books I like at an average price of $62.50. I think that I am the winner here. Just wondering why anyone would call themselves a comic book dealer and not feel they have a vested interest in every book that comes to market that they traffic in.

 

Just because he didn't sell it to you and you found it for less doesn't mean he won't get his price from someone else. I held firm on a lot of my prices when I sold my books and usually got them even though there were cheaper copies to be had in similar grade elsewhere.

[JLA_ALL_THE_WAY]

skybolt & whomerjay,

 

I think we're all basically on the same page. And yes, other factors are at play besides the prices. Didn't mean for my response to come off so 'cut & dry.'

 

I guess my comment was more towards the lack of common sense used nowadays by your average ebayer/internet seller...especially with the availabilty of real time info at their fingertips.

 

But yes, watch out for any collectible that's lookin like a "flame-out" and if you're able to stock up on any HOT item, then maybe it's not so hot anymore...?

 

But I stick to my guns as far as "buying what you're selling at 50%" if you truly believe your price is fair. Otherwise, you're either kidding yourself with your sell price, or you're missing out on more profit with an easy purchase. Which one seems worse?

 

Rick

[JLA_ALL_THE_WAY]

Just because he didn't sell it to you and you found it for less doesn't mean he won't get his price from someone else. I held firm on a lot of my prices when I sold my books and usually got them even though there were cheaper copies to be had in similar grade elsewhere.

 

FFB,

 

If you found them cheaper elsewhere (in like condition) and still believed in your asking price, why not snatch up the others? Just curious, seeing as how you let a good opportunity get by...? Was the price difference not substantial enough? Not enough funds at the time? Didn't trust the sellers?

 

I have a precious few items that I stand firm on price-wise; so if I come across anything similar...BAM! I buy, then turn around & unload for just a moderate increase. No sense in tying up the money for too long, plus it improves my rep as a supplier, plus I keep the market going forward.

 

Artificial pricing? Yeah. But if the merch keeps moving at that price...

 

Rick

[whomerjay]

skybolt & whomerjay,

 

I think we're all basically on the same page. And yes, other factors are at play besides the prices. Didn't mean for my response to come off so 'cut & dry.'

 

I guess my comment was more towards the lack of common sense used nowadays by your average ebayer/internet seller...especially with the availabilty of real time info at their fingertips.

 

But yes, watch out for any collectible that's lookin like a "flame-out" and if you're able to stock up on any HOT item, then maybe it's not so hot anymore...?

 

But I stick to my guns as far as "buying what you're selling at 50%" if you truly believe your price is fair. Otherwise, you're either kidding yourself with your sell price, or you're missing out on more profit with an easy purchase. Which one seems worse?

 

Rick

 

I agree with your general sentiment and like your integrity. For any truly collectible book if you're not willing to buy it at a reasonable % of what you sell it for, you're somewhat disingenuous in your asking price. I used to love hearing dealers pimp a book to a potential buyer "this is ultra-rare, a real steal at this price " then the potential buyer asks them if they want to BUY one. "Oh no, (fill in the BS excuse).

[tth2]

My point is, the connotation of a dealer ( at least in the corporate world which I come from) means that you would be willing to buy any product which you are selling (at a given price) I have seen a number of threads where dealers lament that they can not sell their product at the prices they want. Is it maybe because they are not willing to support the hobby which they claim to make a living from? Their asking price was derived from something other than thin air (I hope) so they believe the comic is worth that. Well, then isn't another copy of the same comic worth at least half that?

 

Depends on the profit margin they are shooting for. To me or you, it may be enough of a profit to buy something I'm already selling for $100 at $50 if I know I have definite buyers at $100. Maybe for some comic dealers, this may not be enough of a profit to overcome their "risk"

 

I am not talking about a book that has sat on your website for a year at $100 I am talking about a book that you listed for $100, was offered $80 and passed and then let another identical copy sell for $45 all within a two week time frame. Do not misunderstand me, I am happy, to purchase the second book for $45 even though I just bought one for $80, Now I have two books I like at an average price of $62.50. I think that I am the winner here. Just wondering why anyone would call themselves a comic book dealer and not feel they have a vested interest in every book that comes to market that they traffic in.

 

Just because he didn't sell it to you and you found it for less doesn't mean he won't get his price from someone else. I held firm on a lot of my prices when I sold my books and usually got them even though there were cheaper copies to be had in similar grade elsewhere.

I think you're missing Bob's point. I don't think he's really criticizing the dealer's selling price or the dealer rejecting Bob's lower offer. His real question is if the dealer thinks he can get $1000 for the book (his asking price), and KNOWS he can get at least $800 for the book (Bob's offer price, which the dealer rejected), why would he not sweep up every book that comes in materially below $800? I think Bob is just saying good business sense would cause the dealer to either (a) buy up the $450 book and sell that at $800 to Bob, locking in a $350 profit, or (b) at least bid against Bob for the $450 book so it sells something closer to the $800/$1000 price, thus providing better justification that the $800/$1000 price isn't totally out of whack.

 

Bob, as for the reasons why this didn't happen, I can think of several reasons off the top of my head.

 

1. The dealer simply didn't see the cheaper listing on eBay. People don't always have perfect information all the time, otherwise there would be no arbitrage opportunities.

 

2. The dealer is simply not a rational businessman and doesn't operate his business according to sound business principles, which is the case more often than not with many comic dealers.

 

3. The dealer is undercapitalized (which is the case more often than not with many comic dealers) and isn't willing to use his scarce capital to sweep up the $450 book, particularly if it's an illiquid book that he will have a hard time moving if you were to turn it down, in which case he would now have 2 copies of the book that he can't move.

[tth2]

But I stick to my guns as far as "buying what you're selling at 50%" if you truly believe your price is fair.

My current bidding techniques were all learned from you!

[JLA_ALL_THE_WAY]

I agree with your general sentiment and like your integrity. For any truly collectible book if you're not willing to buy it at a reasonable % of what you sell it for, you're somewhat disingenuous in your asking price. I used to love hearing dealers pimp a book to a potential buyer "this is ultra-rare, a real steal at this price " then the potential buyer asks them if they want to BUY one. "Oh no, (fill in the BS excuse).

 

Dead On.

 

My peeve re: sellers was not so much price, but condition.

After years of getting hit in the head with low grade NMs ,I eventually would bring one of my "Near Mint" Silver JLAs to the SD Con. After asking for a Top Condition book & have them toss a F+ at me (and say it was NM), I would show them mine and say, "No, I want one in NM condition." Not to be a jerk, but let them know that NM books did exist...and stop trying to pass off mid-grades as top-of-the-line. The looks on their faces made it all worth it.

 

Rick

[JLA_ALL_THE_WAY]

But I stick to my guns as far as "buying what you're selling at 50%" if you truly believe your price is fair.

My current bidding techniques were all learned from you!

 

And where did you learn your past techniques, grasshopper?

 

Rick

[tth2]

But I stick to my guns as far as "buying what you're selling at 50%" if you truly believe your price is fair.

My current bidding techniques were all learned from you!

 

And where did you learn your past techniques, grasshopper?

 

Rick

That was just an amateur fumbling his way through life. You have opened my eyes!

[whomerjay]

I agree with your general sentiment and like your integrity. For any truly collectible book if you're not willing to buy it at a reasonable % of what you sell it for, you're somewhat disingenuous in your asking price. I used to love hearing dealers pimp a book to a potential buyer "this is ultra-rare, a real steal at this price " then the potential buyer asks them if they want to BUY one. "Oh no, (fill in the BS excuse).

 

Dead On.

 

My peeve re: sellers was not so much price, but condition.

After years of getting hit in the head with low grade NMs ,I eventually would bring one of my "Near Mint" Silver JLAs to the SD Con. After asking for a Top Condition book & have them toss a F+ at me (and say it was NM), I would show them mine and say, "No, I want one in NM condition." Not to be a jerk, but let them know that NM books did exist...and stop trying to pass off mid-grades as top-of-the-line. The looks on their faces made it all worth it.

 

Rick

 

Now that I think of it, that's the built in excuse for not buying I usually hear: "Oh, I'm only looking for PERFECT specimens of this book/card... yours has a 2 angstrom crease inside one the character's hairs....and the centering is only 51/49"

[Bullet123]

My point is, the connotation of a dealer ( at least in the corporate world which I come from) means that you would be willing to buy any product which you are selling (at a given price) I have seen a number of threads where dealers lament that they can not sell their product at the prices they want. Is it maybe because they are not willing to support the hobby which they claim to make a living from? Their asking price was derived from something other than thin air (I hope) so they believe the comic is worth that. Well, then isn't another copy of the same comic worth at least half that?

 

Depends on the profit margin they are shooting for. To me or you, it may be enough of a profit to buy something I'm already selling for $100 at $50 if I know I have definite buyers at $100. Maybe for some comic dealers, this may not be enough of a profit to overcome their "risk"

 

I am not talking about a book that has sat on your website for a year at $100 I am talking about a book that you listed for $100, was offered $80 and passed and then let another identical copy sell for $45 all within a two week time frame. Do not misunderstand me, I am happy, to purchase the second book for $45 even though I just bought one for $80, Now I have two books I like at an average price of $62.50. I think that I am the winner here. Just wondering why anyone would call themselves a comic book dealer and not feel they have a vested interest in every book that comes to market that they traffic in.

 

Just because he didn't sell it to you and you found it for less doesn't mean he won't get his price from someone else. I held firm on a lot of my prices when I sold my books and usually got them even though there were cheaper copies to be had in similar grade elsewhere.

 

But if you truly believe that the price you are asking is what the book is worth and you are a dealer, why won't you buy another copy? If the book is IYO truly worth that, you should be willing to buy 10 copies, let alone one? Scott, I know you to be a collector. Pick a book that is on your wish list. It becomes avaiable tomorrow for $100. You buy it because:

 

1. You like the cover/artist

2. You like the story arc

3. It fills a gap in your run

 

You pick the reason. A week later, that same book is on Ebay and with 5 minutes left to go, $40 is the winning bid. Would you?

 

1. Make a bid because if you liked the first one at $100, you gotta love the second at $45

2. Make a bid because you know, unlucky as you were, the reason you paid $100 for the last copy was that it was tough to find in grade,etc.

 

It seems more collectors/dealers are willing to do just that, but the people who call themselves the "dealers" of this hobby are not.

 

Whats wrong with having two of the same book if its something you liked/desired in the first place?

If they want buyers to come to them to buy, they have to be willing to buy themselves!

[skybolt]

I think you're missing Bob's point. I don't think he's really criticizing the dealer's selling price or the dealer rejecting Bob's lower offer. His real question is if the dealer thinks he can get $1000 for the book (his asking price), and KNOWS he can get at least $800 for the book (Bob's offer price, which the dealer rejected), why would he not sweep up every book that comes in materially below $800? I think Bob is just saying good business sense would cause the dealer to either (a) buy up the $450 book and sell that at $800 to Bob, locking in a $350 profit, or (b) at least bid against Bob for the $450 book so it sells something closer to the $800/$1000 price, thus providing better justification that the $800/$1000 price isn't totally out of whack.

 

Bob, as for the reasons why this didn't happen, I can think of several reasons off the top of my head.

 

1. The dealer simply didn't see the cheaper listing on eBay. People don't always have perfect information all the time, otherwise there would be no arbitrage opportunities.

 

2. The dealer is simply not a rational businessman and doesn't operate his business according to sound business principles, which is the case more often than not with many comic dealers.

 

3. The dealer is undercapitalized (which is the case more often than not with many comic dealers) and isn't willing to use his scarce capital to sweep up the $450 book, particularly if it's an illiquid book that he will have a hard time moving if you were to turn it down, in which case he would now have 2 copies of the book that he can't move.

 

What you said makes sense for the $1,000/$800/$450 scenario, but in reality it was an $80 vs. $100 offer. If you consider slabbing fees, it's too much of a hassle for the dealer to scavange Ebay to to save $10 or $20 on a given book, where they can hold on to their $100 asking fee and eventually find someone to buy it.

 

As a collector I generally separate my books into 3 different categories:

 

A.) Books I want to keep in my collection (the majority) - I won't list these books since I have no intention of selling them.

B.) Books I want to keep in my collection but am willing to sell for a profit - I'll generally up my asking price for these books on CL since even of they don't sell, I'll enloy keeping them in my collection. If they do sell, then I can purchase other books to fit Category A.

C.) Books I don't need in my collection - I'll typically sell these at or below FMV just to get rid of them.

 

I think a lot of collectors fit both Categories B and C, therefore, causing flucuation in market values for certain books. I love having books in Category B, since if I come across a grail, I can always reduce the asking price on these books to gain additional funds. If I don't come across my grail, then I'd still enjoy having them in my collection.