RESTORED COMICS..WHATS ALL THE HYPE ABOUT??

[adamstrange]

"People don't buy restored books because they don't want to."

 

I don't think that's really true. A lot of people wouldn't care -- they'd just pay less for them. But the hysterical loud voices of the "any restoration makes a book worthless" crowd, even if they weren't a big contingent of colelctors 5-7 years ago, make people think twice about buying a restored book for fear that if they had to sell, they might get hammered. It's more about liquidity than anything else.

 

Restored books were not so looked down on 10-15 years ago. Restoration experts took out big spreads in OPG touting how lovely restoration is and nobody was calling them con-artists.

 

And, of course, it depends on how much restoration. 2/3 of a cover replaced different than a cleaned staple, tiny tear sealed or even a centerfold from another issue replacing a lost centerfold (that's at least an original part -- in car collecting would anyone care about replacing a part with another original part?)

 

About 13 years ago Pat Kohanek wrote in CBM, "There is a place in the hobby for restored books, and it is as far from my collection as possible." Pat was just one of a number of collectors who purposely avoided restored comics.

 

Generally, restored books were not looked down on, but it was well understood that it was the easiest way to con newbies with money. Myself and many collectors I know were burned when starting out, and quite a few never returned. One of THE major justifications for CGC was to restore some credibility to hobby that had sorely been lacking. Some dealers that are back in the mainstream now would not be without CGC, so poor was their reputation for selling unrestored books as restored.

 

Attitudes may change now that CGC is generally on the ball with restoration checking, but restored book pricing is influenced by history as well as the PLOD.

[the blob]

i have no idea who pat kohanek is, that's not the point. obviously some people did care, and probably more people do care now. and is mr. kohanek worried about a slight CT making an otherwise F/VF "worthless" or is he talking about replacement of half the cover? i wouldn't be interested in a restored silver age book unless it were absurdly cheap, mainly because there are generally lots of them out there, but on some early GA stuff i could never afford, I've knowingly bought the occasional restored book at a good discount off what a non-restored copy would go for (sort of following the OPG guidelines on this sort of thing plus some more discounting)

 

but it does seem that the discount has grown a lot since CGC and the "all restration is evil" crowd have come into vogue

 

13 years ago i don't think there were too many people out there who thought a book with a slight CT should only be worth a small fraction of what the book was worth pre-CT, but now there are plenty that think so or who would never own the book.

 

if the restoration is disclosed, where's the con job?

[Shield]

if you were to find a sealed garage somewhere that had a 1953 Corvette tucked away in mint condition EXCEPT the paint was severely faded (chrome, engine, interior, everything else pristine mint) you'd STILL get real close to the maximum value of the car if you had it professionally repainted and sold it.

Shield, very interesting post. I know nothing about the vintage car market. Regarding the statement you make above, are you saying that if the 1953 Corvette were as you describe, except that its original paint job was also perfectly intact, that it would still go for only a little more than the car that was professionally repainted? I find that to be amazing. It seems to me that either people are underpricing the original paint car, or overpricing the repainted car.

 

And I'll bite, what exactly does a "Frame off" restoration mean?

 

tth2, it's simple science. Cars are driven in the rain, snow and sunshine. Paint jobs are not going to last 50 years, nor were they ever intended to. Those with big bucks buying these "perfect" 50 year old cars want them to look as perfect as possible, even if it involves 17 coats of lacquer paint or whatever. A frame off restoration means the car was complete dis-assembled down to just the bare metal frame (which is usually sandblasted or painted) and each nut, bolt, fender, chrome piece, motor etc. is restored or made "like new" while re-assembling the car.

 

All I'm saying is the car vs. comics restoration analogy is weak. You're taking something made to be outdoors getting restored vs. paper ephemera. I mean c'mon guys, these .10 comics were made to be read and then pitched.

[adamstrange]

i have no idea who pat kohanek is, that's not the point. obviously some people did care, and probably more people do care now. and is mr. kohanek worried about a slight CT making an otherwise F/VF "worthless" or is he talking about replacement of half the cover? i wouldn't be interested in a restored silver age book unless it were absurdly cheap, mainly because there are generally lots of them out there, but on some early GA stuff i could never afford, I've knowingly bought the occasional restored book at a good discount off what a non-restored copy would go for (sort of following the OPG guidelines on this sort of thing plus some more discounting)

 

but it does seem that the discount has grown a lot since CGC and the "all restration is evil" crowd have come into vogue

 

13 years ago i don't think there were too many people out there who thought a book with a slight CT should only be worth a small fraction of what the book was worth pre-CT, but now there are plenty that think so or who would never own the book.

 

if the restoration is disclosed, where's the con job?

 

I spelled Pat's name wrong, it's Kochanek, and he was frequent contributor to CBM and fairly influential collector who's now 100% into original art. I brought him up as an example to explain why even 10-15 years ago there were quite a few collectors who stayed away from restored books of any type. Even the color touch example you cite is something that most of the collectors I knew would have stayed away from without it being a key Mile High or without a substantial discount.

 

If I wasn't clear, I think it's perfectly okay to sell restored books that are acknowledged as restored. At the same time, the unscrupulous marketing of restored books as unrestored was a blight on the hobby that I believe still affects the pricing of restored books.

 

I'm all for people collecting what they like, at a price they can afford. If the restored books are cheap and you're a collector who likes them, I'd recommend buying as many as you can until the market catches up with you. You'll look back on these days as the glory years when you were able to purchase killer material without spending the big bucks.

[PovertyRow]

About 13 years ago Pat Kohanek wrote in CBM, "There is a place in the hobby for restored books, and it is as far from my collection as possible." Pat was just one of a number of collectors who purposely avoided restored comics.

 

Funny you bring that up. I remember reading that in the then-current issue of CBM and, after reading the first sentence, getting rather ticked off. Now Pat was certainly entitled to his opinion, but man that got under my skin. To this day I remember that line and often over the years it just pops up. I think mainly because the line refects a desire for cleverness over understanding in an issue where understanding, even then, was paramount.

 

Say - do you recall the CBM number? If I don;t have it I want to get it again.

[adamstrange]

About 13 years ago Pat Kohanek wrote in CBM, "There is a place in the hobby for restored books, and it is as far from my collection as possible." Pat was just one of a number of collectors who purposely avoided restored comics.

 

Funny you bring that up. I remember reading that in the then-current issue of CBM and, after reading the first sentence, getting rather ticked off. Now Pat was certainly entitled to his opinion, but man that got under my skin. To this day I remember that line and often over the years it just pops up. I think mainly because the line refects a desire for cleverness over understanding in an issue where understanding, even then, was paramount.

 

Say - do you recall the CBM number? If I don;t have it I want to get it again.

 

Issue #6 -- The Restoration Issue -- in big bold letters on the front cover. Like many of the early CBMs, it's a classic with much useful information.

[PovertyRow]

Issue #6 -- The Restoration Issue -- i

 

Thanks Adam. I think it was one of my absolute favorites. I really miss those days. I miss the days of CBM iwth the amazing articles and the great ads and no internet. I just do.

[DarrenSmith]

Hemmings Motor News is the bible for classic car restorers. It's a big monthy publication of classified ads for automobiles, parts, etc. I went to their online site and did a search on the term investment. If you click on the link you will see most of the asking prices for the vehicles are below their restoration (investment) price:

 

http://www.hemmings.com/index.cfm/fuseaction/quicksearch.classifieds/keyword/invested

 

Here are a few examples (I skipped street rods and customs):

 

Vehicles: BUICK: 1950 Roadmaster convertible, orig 320 Straight 8, unfinished ground-up restoration, acid dipped, rebuilt engine/trans, new chrome, many new parts, California car, $45,000 INVESTED, needs finishing, $23,000. 213-864-9000, CA; communities.msn.com/edcars3

 

Vehicles: MG TD 1952, frame-up restoration, BRG/tan interior, 5-speed gearbox, fully rebuilt engine with full detailing, no expense spared in restoration with over $40,000 INVESTED, will sell for $23,500. Phil, 508-473-5005, MA.

 

PACKARD: 1953 Caribbean, $75,000 INVESTED body-off restoration; paint, chrome, frame, dash, top assy, wire wheels, tires done; needs engine & trans, some assembly to complete, too much more to list, restorer expired, $35,000. Nordstrom, 800-775-7077, TX.

 

Vehicles: CHEVROLET: 1956 210 2-dr post, professionally built frame-off, new 502 crate motor, 350 trans, every nut & bolt, new turquoise & white inside and out, too much to list, if you want the best, don't miss this fine machine, over $70,000 INVESTED, sell $39,000 obo, must sell. 724-339-3010, 724-337-6069, PA.

 

Vehicles: 1956 Continental Mark II, gray, 68,000 mi, factory air, rebuilt engine, authentically restored, major award winner, over $90,000 INVESTED, $52,000 obo. 309-692-0256, IL; jah122543@earthlink.net

 

Vehicles: SILVER CLOUD I: 1958 (LSHF103), lhd, rust-free California Rolls-Royce with factory a/c, stainless exhaust and much more, if you're wanting a great Silver Cloud I to drive and show and you aren't a dealer wanting to purchase for resale, my Cloud I may well be the one you've been looking for, everything electrical and mechanical that needed to be done has been done and I can provide many invoices, car needs minor bodywork to right rear fender and new paint, also needs leather work on driver's seat bottom and arm rest, beautiful wood, carpet and headliner, more than $70,000 INVESTED, $36,500; photos available, phone me for additional details. Albert Hannover Marlowe, 125 Hampton Place, Nashville, TN 37215, 615-292-3711.

 

Vehicles: THUNDERBIRD: 1960, rare w/sunroof, all factory options, pw, ps, pb, leather, auto, much rebuilt or replaced, over $25,000 INVESTED, $17,500, negotiable. snvyas@gmail.com

[Shield]

Hemmings Motor News is the bible for classic car restorers. It's a big monthy publication of classified ads for automobiles, parts, etc. I went to their online site and did a search on the term investment. If you click on the link you will see most of the asking prices for the vehicles are below their restoration (investment) price:

 

http://www.hemmings.com/index.cfm/fuseaction/quicksearch.classifieds/keyword/invested

 

Here are a few examples (I skipped street rods and customs):

 

Vehicles: BUICK: 1950 Roadmaster convertible, orig 320 Straight 8, unfinished ground-up restoration, acid dipped, rebuilt engine/trans, new chrome, many new parts, California car, $45,000 INVESTED, needs finishing, $23,000. 213-864-9000, CA; communities.msn.com/edcars3

 

Vehicles: MG TD 1952, frame-up restoration, BRG/tan interior, 5-speed gearbox, fully rebuilt engine with full detailing, no expense spared in restoration with over $40,000 INVESTED, will sell for $23,500. Phil, 508-473-5005, MA.

 

PACKARD: 1953 Caribbean, $75,000 INVESTED body-off restoration; paint, chrome, frame, dash, top assy, wire wheels, tires done; needs engine & trans, some assembly to complete, too much more to list, restorer expired, $35,000. Nordstrom, 800-775-7077, TX.

 

Vehicles: CHEVROLET: 1956 210 2-dr post, professionally built frame-off, new 502 crate motor, 350 trans, every nut & bolt, new turquoise & white inside and out, too much to list, if you want the best, don't miss this fine machine, over $70,000 INVESTED, sell $39,000 obo, must sell. 724-339-3010, 724-337-6069, PA.

 

Vehicles: 1956 Continental Mark II, gray, 68,000 mi, factory air, rebuilt engine, authentically restored, major award winner, over $90,000 INVESTED, $52,000 obo. 309-692-0256, IL; jah122543@earthlink.net

 

Vehicles: SILVER CLOUD I: 1958 (LSHF103), lhd, rust-free California Rolls-Royce with factory a/c, stainless exhaust and much more, if you're wanting a great Silver Cloud I to drive and show and you aren't a dealer wanting to purchase for resale, my Cloud I may well be the one you've been looking for, everything electrical and mechanical that needed to be done has been done and I can provide many invoices, car needs minor bodywork to right rear fender and new paint, also needs leather work on driver's seat bottom and arm rest, beautiful wood, carpet and headliner, more than $70,000 INVESTED, $36,500; photos available, phone me for additional details. Albert Hannover Marlowe, 125 Hampton Place, Nashville, TN 37215, 615-292-3711.

 

Vehicles: THUNDERBIRD: 1960, rare w/sunroof, all factory options, pw, ps, pb, leather, auto, much rebuilt or replaced, over $25,000 INVESTED, $17,500, negotiable. snvyas@gmail.com

 

Sure, there are people who made big investments in cars that they are having a hard time "moving" to get rid of. Also, many of them factor in "man hours"; i.e. if they make $30 per hour at their real job they factor that in into time spent restoring their vehicles. Now, find those exact same cars in unrestored MINT condition (you won't) and see what they're selling for. If you find one that's all original and untouched it still won't fetch as much as these frame off resto jobs, because paint and chrome are affected greatly by the passage of time.

 

Again, the car vs. comic restoration analogy is weak. Don't you think? I laugh when I see one of those listings - what kind of a insufficiently_thoughtful_person invests $50,000 to sell a vehicle for $38,000? It's a niche market for sure, when for $55k I can buy a brand new Jaguar S-Type or a new Lexus GS.

 

Shawn

[DarrenSmith]

Again, the car vs. comic restoration analogy is weak. Don't you think?

 

That is what I am saying, you cannot compare the two. My Grandfather trade after the war was an automobile restorer and mechanic. I believe the Baker Electric cars from the early teens in the Cleveland Auto Musuem are his restorations.

 

By the way, $30 per hour would be very cheap.

[DarrenSmith]

if you were to find a sealed garage somewhere that had a 1953 Corvette tucked away in mint condition EXCEPT the paint was severely faded

 

All 300 of the Corvette produced in 1953 were Polo White, not sure how faded it can get

 

(chrome, engine, interior, everything else pristine mint) you'd STILL get real close to the maximum value of the car if you had it professionally repainted and sold it.

 

In your example, if the car is in pristine mint condition because it was a very low mileage car (under 500 miles) and the Polo White paint was faded, I wouldn't touch the orginal paint. If it was a high mileage car, I believe hiring a professional to put eight coats of Polo White paint on the car would enhance its value if you were selling it through a major auction house.

[ablue]

Glad to see everyone still remembers my views on this subject.