RESTORED COMICS..WHATS ALL THE HYPE ABOUT??

[Guest]

WRONG AGAIN, GreedyDealer. I have a cable modem / Optimum online. I never log out! If it happens at all, it's by accident, and hasn't logged out by itself in at least 3 days now, dependent upon which windows are open and closed on my PC. Would you care to wager hard cash against your HARD evidence that I'm ABLUE? I'll even throw Arch my winnings, and you my money if you're right, not profiting in the least. It'll be worth it to gag that arrogant, accusing, know it all mouth on you for a day or two while you try to get both feet out of your mouth. What about it. Let's solidify a bet, send a Board member our MONEY, and then you email Arch and ask if it's at all even remotely possible for me to be ABLUE. What do you say? It's an easy bet to make, and you can't possibly lose, RIGHT?

I don't NEED intermediaries and false post names to say what I want. I haven't demonstrated at least THAT much?

[ablue]

Well at least I have Meth on my side.

Thanks!

[ablue]

Actually I'm from Toronto Canada and Meth is from New York.

The isp numbers would show we are from two different locations but who is gonna give that out? now way I don't want any hackers around my desk top

[PovertyRow]

Replying yo myself to avoid anyone thinking I am singling them out - but What The Hey do these last posts have to do with restoration?

[blowout]

......you must have realised by now pov, that very rarely do threads on these boards stay on topic..................

[PovertyRow]

......you must have realised by now pov, that very rarely do threads on these boards stay on topic

 

You know? I'd reply to this but it would be off topic!

 

Huh? Ack! Dagnabbit!

[Guest]

And it's a damned shame that we keep getting the innuendo interjections and have to get side-tracked fighting amongst ourselves because Pov's posts have been some of the most elucidating ones I've seen in a long time. Everyone's been begging for posts containing info on restoration detection and practices, Pov's gone OUT OF HIS WAY to present the info he thought everyone was clamoring for, and here we are again, off on a tangent, debating at what time ABLUE logs on and off. Arch should give Pov HIS OWN THREAD on this important subject and not allow anyone else to post on it and distract us and Pov from the valuable information he's giving us. This in-house fighting is uncalled for. You know, initially, I had the wrong idea. Couldn't stop myself, but I should have. Then some well-deserved time in the penalty box made me realize that we're all at the same party. All guests in someone's home. The forum is here and the lounge is open because we have been invited in. As guests in someone's home, we can all at least respect the host and each other enough to wipe the mud off our shoes on the welcome mat before we enter and start hurling it around. The same rules of etiquette and respect should apply here in cyberspace that would apply in the real world.

[PovertyRow]

Pov's gone OUT OF HIS WAY to present the info he thought everyone was clamoring for, and here we are again, off on a tangent, debating at what time ABLUE logs on and off. Arch should give Pov HIS OWN THREAD on this important subject

 

While I DO appreciate the sentiment, there is no surer way to kill a thread than chastising the folks. Just a fact.

 

See my next email regarding the use of the word "includes" in CGC restoration labels.

[PovertyRow]

I get the impression that CGC uses the word "includes" when talking about the restoration exactly because that's all they have detected. There may be more that they've missed and they're covering their butts in case more "resto" is detected at some other time.

 

Well I posted this very question to the ASK CGC folder on the 9th. Today, technically YESTERDAY as it is a bit after 1AM here in CA - 3 new replies came to that forum. But not mine. Not sure why. I didn;t get angry or anything - just asked a simple question. But no response to the question of why "includes" is used in ref to restoration and what does that mean.

 

But it is very possible that the restoration experts were not available and the answer may be forthcoming. Lettuce hope so! It IS an intriquing question.

[fantastic_four]

I highly doubt they'll answer it, either. I wouldn't.

 

Professionals use indeterminant words every day to give themselves wiggle room. In any complex field, many of us qualify what we say with "I think," "maybe," "might," "should," "could," "hopefully," and dozens of other qualifiers every day. I know it's commonly accepted practice in the field of software design! All software has bugs, it's just a matter of finding them; a large program is far too complex to expect 100% accuracy. Using noncommittal words is indicative of the viewpoint that your area of expertise is more complex than you or most other humans can effectively manage with 100% accuracy. If you use words like that to begin with, you're not likely to want to explain why you use them to the ignorant masses who don't understand that some areas of knowledge do have uncertainty to them.

 

Using the word "includes" is also consistent with the business model that CGC inherited from NGC. CGC is a Limited Liability Corporation, which both gives them tax breaks and protects Borock, Friesan, or Haspel and the boys from being individually sued for screwing up with their grading. Did you ever notice the word "Guaranty" in the title? Most people probably assume that a "guaranty" is the same thing as a "guarantee," but it's not. A guaranty is just a promise that a good-faith best effort has been taken at ensuring an assertment. It's not absolute like a "guarantee" is; it legally protects the CCG members from being sued because they make a mistake. Giving a guaranty just means you've done your homework and given your best effort to ensure that your opinion is accurate; it doesn't mean the opinion is necessarily correct.

 

You may be thinking that since they make money for restoration detection and you don't that they should know more than you do. However, I'm not sure that's the case. You appear to know quite a bit about the topic--possibly not much less than Friesan does.

 

Do you think that CGC should be held to a 100% detection success rate? It'd be nice, but I find it extremely difficult to believe that Friesan is able to detect any restoration, and he certainly isn't able to do it with 100% accuracy for 8 to 12 hours a day, 5 to 7 days a week. I think that grading, restoration, and restoration detection still have a long ways to go before they have been fully explored. Using the word "includes" indicates that they probably believe the same thing.

[PovertyRow]

Do you think that CGC should be held to a 100% detection success rate? It'd be nice, but I find it extremely difficult to believe that Friesan is able to detect any restoration, and he certainly isn't able to do it with 100% accuracy for 8 to 12 hours a day, 5 to 7 days a week. I think that grading, restoration, and restoration detection still have a long ways to go before they have been fully explored. Using the word "includes" indicates that they probably believe the same thing.

 

I have noticed "Guaranty" and it always tweaked something in my mind but I never pursued it. Very interesting explanaiton!

 

You are right - especially at this stage I doubt anyone can do 100% detection. What feels funny about "includes" is its open-endedness. Something like "Restoration found" or "Restoraiton detected" would be as accurate for implying that this is what they have come up with, without leaving that open-ended feeling..

[Harvey Dude]

 

I wonder if sentiment has changed much since this post.

[Forbush-Man]

 

I wonder if sentiment has changed much since this post.

 

I'm glad you found this thread HD, I'll enjoy going thru it.

 

As for me, I have no problem with certain books having restoration. I don't mind at all, as long as (1) the restoration is slight (preservation type work: cover cleaned, tear seal), (2) the restoration is disclosed & (3) the books are priced acccordingly (generally 25-33% of guide). I also consider Professional over Amatuer and if there is paperwork listing the restoration, all the better.

 

I don't care for color touch, pieces added,.....restoration which is cosmetic (enhancing the look).

 

I will happily buy up key Golden Age books with slight, professional restoration all day long at 25-33% of guide.

 

I believe the bad rap restored books get is due to those people out there who have sold them, undisclosed, as unrestored books for full guide value. Currently the stigma continues,.......and that is just fine and dandy for me!

[PovertyRow]

 

I wonder if sentiment has changed much since this post.

 

This thread may contain my first "dagnabbit"!!!

 

I HAVE changed my mind on the label colors. I ultimately decided I would rather see restored books in a blue lab el with description of the restoration. And also no problem with a large "R" next to the grade as in 9.4RA (for Retored Amateur) or RP (Resotred Professional).

[the blob]

"People don't buy restored books because they don't want to."

 

I don't think that's really true. A lot of people wouldn't care -- they'd just pay less for them. But the hysterical loud voices of the "any restoration makes a book worthless" crowd, even if they weren't a big contingent of colelctors 5-7 years ago, make people think twice about buying a restored book for fear that if they had to sell, they might get hammered. It's more about liquidity than anything else.

 

Restored books were not so looked down on 10-15 years ago. Restoration experts took out big spreads in OPG touting how lovely restoration is and nobody was calling them con-artists.

 

And, of course, it depends on how much restoration. 2/3 of a cover replaced different than a cleaned staple, tiny tear sealed or even a centerfold from another issue replacing a lost centerfold (that's at least an original part -- in car collecting would anyone care about replacing a part with another original part?)

[PovertyRow]

"People don't buy restored books because they don't want to."

 

I don't think that's really true. A lot of people wouldn't care -- they'd just pay less for them. But the hysterical loud voices of the "any restoration makes a book worthless" crowd, even if they weren't a big contingent of colelctors 5-7 years ago, make people think twice about buying a restored book for fear that if they had to sell, they might get hammered. It's more about liquidity than anything else.

 

Restored books were not so looked down on 10-15 years ago. Restoration experts took out big spreads in OPG touting how lovely restoration is and nobody was calling them con-artists.

 

And, of course, it depends on how much restoration. 2/3 of a cover replaced different than a cleaned staple, tiny tear sealed or even a centerfold from another issue replacing a lost centerfold (that's at least an original part -- in car collecting would anyone care about replacing a part with another original part?)

 

You klnw, Blob - you expressed a lot of, since 2002 here, I have been trying to say about how restoration is/has been perceived...in that one post! The only diff I have, unless I am reading you incorrectly, is the car part thing. Depends, of course, on the part. But if it is serial numbered, then yeah, collectors would care.

[DarrenSmith]

"or even a centerfold from another issue replacing a lost centerfold (that's at least an original part -- in car collecting would anyone care about replacing a part with another original part?)

 

You can't really compare it to car collecting, people who sell their restored automobiles usually only get a fraction of the cost they put into restoration of the automobile. Comic books can be restored for a very low cost. And yes, depending on the part, it greatly effects the price of a collector car (ie all numbers match)

[FFB]

"or even a centerfold from another issue replacing a lost centerfold (that's at least an original part -- in car collecting would anyone care about replacing a part with another original part?)

 

You can't really compare it to car collecting, people who sell their restored automobiles usually only get a fraction of the cost they put into restoration of the automobile. Comic books can be restored for a very low cost. And yes, depending on the part, it greatly effects the price of a collector car (ie all numbers match)

 

OK, but what about cleaned and pressed comics? Isn't that like washing and buffing out a ding or scratch on a classic car? THOSE cars don't sell for less, do they?

 

I view part replacement on a car the same way I do infilling and inpainting on a comic. Of course those should affect the value.

 

Do I think cleaning and pressing a comic should affect the value? Sure. But not by a reduction of 50% or more of unrestored value. I also don't think that adding a dot of color touch to a VF/NM comic to bring it up to Apparent NM- should cause the value of the book to plummet to unrestored FN price. It certainly wouldn't have the same effect if you put a small spot of ballpoint pen ink in a white spot on the cover (which might drop the grade to VF+ or perhaps not at all), and the color touch actually looks better than a random spot of ink would.

[Shield]

"or even a centerfold from another issue replacing a lost centerfold (that's at least an original part -- in car collecting would anyone care about replacing a part with another original part?)

 

You can't really compare it to car collecting, people who sell their restored automobiles usually only get a fraction of the cost they put into restoration of the automobile. Comic books can be restored for a very low cost. And yes, depending on the part, it greatly effects the price of a collector car (ie all numbers match)

 

Not sure if I agree with this analogy. Growing up, my Dad had a 55 Chevy and a 56 Ford. The Ford was 100% all original and had about 24000 miles on it, and even had the factory exhaust still intact. This was around 1990 that he had both of these cars. The Chevy was pure junk; motor was trashed, chrome was pitted, body was beaten up. I remember all those months Dad spent sanding down and priming each fender until it was as perfect as possible. Sure, he spent some cash on the chrome and paint, but made quite a huge profit on the car when he was finished.

 

I guess what I'd like to say is that the closer to original you can get an antique car restored the more valuable it'll be, provided the car is in demand. You can't apply that brush stroke to comics however. Let me put in another way - if you were to find a sealed garage somewhere that had a 1953 Corvette tucked away in mint condition EXCEPT the paint was severely faded (chrome, engine, interior, everything else pristine mint) you'd STILL get real close to the maximum value of the car if you had it professionally repainted and sold it. Now, take a Detective #27 that is a VF with a missing corner, overall grade VG/Fine or so. Have the top restorer replace that corner and make it look almost good as new - NO WAY are you going to get even half what that book'd been worth without the resto. That's why a general rule of restored books fetching anywhere from 20 to 50% of their non-restored counterpart exists. Not so in the car market - People who make their cars look completely original from bumper to bumper can fetch top price for them. People don't expect cars from the 50's to look pristine mint without work; there are still quite a few comic examples left in the market today to go around.

 

Do a vehicle search on EBAY or autotrader.com for "ground up" or "off-frame" restored vehicles. You'll be amazed at what they fetch!

 

For example:

 

http://adcache.collectorcartraderonline.com/10/4/9/79084849.htm

 

http://adcache.collectorcartraderonline.com/10/9/0/79258990.htm

 

http://adcache.collectorcartraderonline.com/10/8/8/78770188.htm

 

Now, find me a 1955-57 Chevy that looks like any of these cars that haven't been touched. You guys DO realize what a "Frame off" restoration means, right?

[tth2]

if you were to find a sealed garage somewhere that had a 1953 Corvette tucked away in mint condition EXCEPT the paint was severely faded (chrome, engine, interior, everything else pristine mint) you'd STILL get real close to the maximum value of the car if you had it professionally repainted and sold it.

Shield, very interesting post. I know nothing about the vintage car market. Regarding the statement you make above, are you saying that if the 1953 Corvette were as you describe, except that its original paint job was also perfectly intact, that it would still go for only a little more than the car that was professionally repainted? I find that to be amazing. It seems to me that either people are underpricing the original paint car, or overpricing the repainted car.

 

And I'll bite, what exactly does a "Frame off" restoration mean?