GPA Article: "Where are These Bronze 9.8's" Part 1 of 3

[grider67]

Yes, and as far as I am concerned, undetectable pressing is no different that the pressing that occurs to a comic sitting in a stack of comics for 35 years in an attic.

 

Yeah, but say for instance, one sat a spiral notebook on a book (right in the middle). Setting encyclopedia's on it are not going to get rid of that exactly.

 

 

My 2 cents.

[BronzeBruce13]

just curious... not being a smart-arse, but did everyone in this thread "read" the article? Based on some of the comments, it seems maybe no.

 

The link to the article is under the "eye catching" logo

[greggy]

I read it. Too bad most of the books are Marvels.

[gpanalysis]

just curious... not being a smart-arse, but did everyone in this thread "read" the article? Based on some of the comments, it seems maybe no.

 

The link to the article is under the "eye catching" logo

 

No, I didn't read it.....

[worldsbestcomics]

Bru,

 

Great article. I am looking forward to the next two chapters. I agree that the CGC price-break is part of the reason that pre-1975 books have been slow to show up. I also think that the numbers of HG bronze will remain modest for non-core titles. The fans of those titles generally read them and shared them. I know I did. And the ones that didn't sell immediately went into back issue boxes where they got picked over.

[BronzeBruce13]

I listed all the DC's I could think of that were relevant to the criteria I was speaking of. Although, now after the fact, I neglected to list the (2) Erg/Wildfire appearances from Superboy/Superboy & the LOSH that I have in 9.6... 195 and 201.

 

Anyway, the point (as at least you are aware) revolves around issues that are...

 

•#1's (which there are differing opinions concerning the validity of being labeled a key or not). Even so, what is obvious is these issues are >in-demand< regardless as they often are collected as a logcal "lone representation" of a beloved series if nothing else. If you enjoyed the Warlord series by DC, Collecting #1 would seem logical, along with First Issue Special #8.

 

• Trues Keys, 1st App's, relevant events, etc.

 

• Semi-Keys

 

• Popular Shorter Runs that make the "would otherwise be filler" issues in the run, collectible because of the added appeal of completeing the set. Example: iron Fist... #1, #14, #15 are the more obvious issues (Keys) to collect, but since the series is shorter, and the artist respected, the whole run is coveted as an achievable set to complete. If the series went to 40 and had a mixture of less impressive artists 2-13 would liklely not be as "in-Demand" as they are in the real life scenario.

 

Greg, if you feel I missed many DC's that fall into the above categories and a fair amount of bronze collectors are patiently waiting for a 9.8 to appear IYHO, please help me out for the 4th installment... or you can write a "Overlooked In-Demand DC's in 9.8" article yoursel if you prefer. GPA could use another of your interesting offerings anyway.. its been awhile.

[BronzeBruce13]

Like the enhanced logo? I didn't have time to take it all the way when i sent the 1st version to ya;

 

just curious... not being a smart-arse, but did everyone in this thread "read" the article? Based on some of the comments, it seems maybe no.

 

The link to the article is under the "eye catching" logo

 

No, I didn't read it.....

[VintageComics]

Where are These Bronze 9.8's

 

I've got a few....

[ComicBookGuy]

just curious... not being a smart-arse, but did everyone in this thread "read" the article? Based on some of the comments, it seems maybe no.

 

The link to the article is under the "eye catching" logo

 

I read it, Bruce, good article. After all these years the census is finally bearing out what key books are truly tough. I didn't see Gunhawks #1 on the A-I list but was expecting to. As the list continues, I would expect to see Li'l Pals #1, Li'l Kids #1 , and Spoof #1 to appear as they are some of the tougher #1's to find in high grade based on my experience, and the census seems to bear that out. Not that anyone would ever dream of considering these "keys" -- or even books that anybody reads -- but they are #1's and they drive high-grade Marvel completists nuts...

[tth2]

Bruce, regarding this part of your article:

 

I believe one of the reasons for “lower than expected” CGC 9.8 numbers specifically regarding the 1970-1974 bronze issues listed below has something to do with the smaller print runs, that were in most cases, far less when compared to the numbers produced in the mid to late 1960’s. In addition, even though there was obviously some speculation going on, it seems as if many titles/issues were presumed unworthy of the effort. The majority of speculation likely included first issues and more obvious 1st appearances with potential. The fact that there are plenty of relevant issues (in low 9.8 supply) that proved to be “key or in demand” much later supports the idea that they were not identified in advance. As a result, there are in many cases NO CGC 9.8 copies at all… or just 1 or 2 at best. Another consideration regarding the “non-key / filler issues” from this time period is the fact that most heavy CGC submitters (the ones bringing the high quality books to market on a more regular basis) must weigh the “risk/reward ratio” on nearly all books “Pre 1975” since the CGC grading fee makes that turn upward prior to the 1975 mark.

I really don't buy the small print run or "non-key/filler" arguments. Yeah, the print runs WERE smaller compared to the late 60s, but the general awareness of comic book storage more than made up for it. I totally agree with JC in saying it's the low price in Overstreet and the fact that for 99% of the 1970-74 books, you have to have 9.6 or higher to really make it worth your while.

 

Case in point is Incredible Hulk #181. It was definitely a filler issue when it came out in 1974, with a presumably correspondingly small print run. When I bought it and read it as a kid, I found the Wendigo storyline to be much more gripping than the appearance of some weird guy in a yellow costume. It didn't break out until after John Byrne's run in New X-Men turned him into a superstar, some 3 or 4 years later, and even then it's hard to say the price was so high that it would have appreciably changed collecting and storage methods. Assuming that most of the copies which are trashed get trashed within the first few years of a comic's life, you would think that more than enough time had passed for the major attrition to have taken place. But if you look at the Census today, there are 7 9.8 copies and hundreds of 9.4 and 9.6 copies of Hulk 181. Why would significantly more Hulk 181 issues survive in this kind of grade than any other "non-key/filler" BA issue?

 

The fact is we'll simply never know until the price on many of these issues significantly increases, and not just in 9.6 and above, but across the board. Zillions of GS X-Men 1, X-Men 94 and Hulk 181 copies have been submitted to CGC because their prices are so high across the board that anyone who purchased a raw copy 10+ years ago is guaranteed to make a lot of money no matter what the grade. There is no risk for those books coming in as a 9.2 or lower, hence the higher submission rates and higher 9.8 numbers. If you're really after 9.8 copies of these filler issues, you could try buying an ad in Overstreet or elsewhere posting the insane price you're willing to pay, the same way dealers have been doing with GA and SA for many years.

[BronzeBruce13]

Do Tell?... via PM if you don't want to publicize it. I'd keep the information confidential especially since i would not want to create more competiton IF you wanted to sell at some point.

 

 

Where are These Bronze 9.8's

 

I've got a few....

[BronzeBruce13]

Thanks Sir... Gunhawks #1 duly noted and will get mentioned on the now "likely 4th installment. I don't want to get ahead on the other pending sinstallment in this discussion, but I do have Spoof #1 on that list, but not the others you brought up. I will revisit their inclusion. Good post.

 

Missed so far (A-I):

Gunhawks #1

House of Secrets #92

 

 

just curious... not being a smart-arse, but did everyone in this thread "read" the article? Based on some of the comments, it seems maybe no.

 

The link to the article is under the "eye catching" logo

 

I read it, Bruce, good article. After all these years the census is finally bearing out what key books are truly tough. I didn't see Gunhawks #1 on the A-I list but was expecting to. As the list continues, I would expect to see Li'l Pals #1, Li'l Kids #1 , and Spoof #1 to appear as they are some of the tougher #1's to find in high grade based on my experience, and the census seems to bear that out. Not that anyone would ever dream of considering these "keys" -- or even books that anybody reads -- but they are #1's and they drive high-grade Marvel completists nuts...

[BronzeBruce13]

Interesting points Tim... I did mention that I felt "Print Runs" were but one consideration. How much weight the smaller print runs are given as a factor, I have no real idea, but thought it worthy of mention.

 

Also, I believe we are in agreement (not opposition) regarding "non-key/filler" issues unless I'm misunderstanding you? I wrote:

 

Another consideration regarding the “non-key / filler issues” from this time period is the fact that most heavy CGC submitters (the ones bringing the high quality books to market on a more regular basis) must weigh the “risk/reward ratio” on nearly all books “Pre 1975” since the CGC grading fee makes that turn upward prior to the 1975 mark.

 

doesn't my above bolded portion parallel your statement:

 

I totally agree with JC in saying it's the low price in Overstreet and the fact that for 99% of the 1970-74 books, you have to have 9.6 or higher to really make it worth your while

 

Anyway, great post Tim. With your permission perhaps i can use some of your remarks in part 2? The "case and point" with Hulk 181 as an example is particularly thought provoking. Intelligent debate will help the readers form a more educated opinion.

 

Bruce, regarding this part of your article:

 

I believe one of the reasons for “lower than expected” CGC 9.8 numbers specifically regarding the 1970-1974 bronze issues listed below has something to do with the smaller print runs, that were in most cases, far less when compared to the numbers produced in the mid to late 1960’s. In addition, even though there was obviously some speculation going on, it seems as if many titles/issues were presumed unworthy of the effort. The majority of speculation likely included first issues and more obvious 1st appearances with potential. The fact that there are plenty of relevant issues (in low 9.8 supply) that proved to be “key or in demand” much later supports the idea that they were not identified in advance. As a result, there are in many cases NO CGC 9.8 copies at all… or just 1 or 2 at best. Another consideration regarding the “non-key / filler issues” from this time period is the fact that most heavy CGC submitters (the ones bringing the high quality books to market on a more regular basis) must weigh the “risk/reward ratio” on nearly all books “Pre 1975” since the CGC grading fee makes that turn upward prior to the 1975 mark.

 

I really don't buy the small print run or "non-key/filler" arguments. Yeah, the print runs WERE smaller compared to the late 60s, but the general awareness of comic book storage more than made up for it. I totally agree with JC in saying it's the low price in Overstreet and the fact that for 99% of the 1970-74 books, you have to have 9.6 or higher to really make it worth your while.

 

Case in point is Incredible Hulk #181. It was definitely a filler issue when it came out in 1974, with a presumably correspondingly small print run. When I bought it and read it as a kid, I found the Wendigo storyline to be much more gripping than the appearance of some weird guy in a yellow costume. It didn't break out until after John Byrne's run in New X-Men turned him into a superstar, some 3 or 4 years later, and even then it's hard to say the price was so high that it would have appreciably changed collecting and storage methods. Assuming that most of the copies which are trashed get trashed within the first few years of a comic's life, you would think that more than enough time had passed for the major attrition to have taken place. But if you look at the Census today, there are 7 9.8 copies and hundreds of 9.4 and 9.6 copies of Hulk 181. Why would significantly more Hulk 181 issues survive in this kind of grade than any other "non-key/filler" BA issue?

 

The fact is we'll simply never know until the price on many of these issues significantly increases, and not just in 9.6 and above, but across the board. Zillions of GS X-Men 1, X-Men 94 and Hulk 181 copies have been submitted to CGC because their prices are so high across the board that anyone who purchased a raw copy 10+ years ago is guaranteed to make a lot of money no matter what the grade. There is no risk for those books coming in as a 9.2 or lower, hence the higher submission rates and higher 9.8 numbers. If you're really after 9.8 copies of these filler issues, you could try buying an ad in Overstreet or elsewhere posting the insane price you're willing to pay, the same way dealers have been doing with GA and SA for many years.

[tth2]

Interesting points Tim... I did mention that I felt "Print Runs" were but one consideration. How much weight the smaller print runs are given as a factor, I have no real idea, but thought it worthy of mention.

 

Also, I believe we are in agreement (not opposition) regarding "non-key/filler" issues unless I'm misunderstanding you? I wrote:

 

Another consideration regarding the “non-key / filler issues” from this time period is the fact that most heavy CGC submitters (the ones bringing the high quality books to market on a more regular basis) must weigh the “risk/reward ratio” on nearly all books “Pre 1975” since the CGC grading fee makes that turn upward prior to the 1975 mark.

 

doesn't my above bolded portion parallel your statement:

 

I totally agree with JC in saying it's the low price in Overstreet and the fact that for 99% of the 1970-74 books, you have to have 9.6 or higher to really make it worth your while

Sorry, you're absolutely right. I think I included that part of your paragraph because I was going to agree with that part, and then forgot to do so.

 

Anyway, great post Tim. With your permission perhaps i can use some of your remarks in part 2? The "case and point" with Hulk 181 as an example is particularly thought provoking. Intelligent debate will help the readers form a more educated opinion.

Sure, be my guest. Always happy to be considered a BA guru.

 

Interestingly, I was going to say you could also use X-Men 94 as an even better example of this phenomenon, because it had a smaller print run than Hulk 181 and probably had a smaller group of regular buyers than Hulk 181 given that X-Men was an extremely unpopular title that had been in reprints for a while and then had a one issue hiatus (June 1975) before it got an unpublicized re-start with #94 in August 1975. As with Hulk 181, the issue didn't break out until the Byrne run became really popular. However, when I checked the Census I saw there's still only 1 9.8 copy, and "only" 17 9.6 copies. So perhaps X-Men 94 is actually a book that really DID have a small enough print run, and flew under the radar for long enough, that the number of 9.6 and higher copies will never be massive notwithstanding its extremely high value across all grades. Perhaps the dark cover phenomenon, which you allude to, is at play here, but the low numbers in the Census still surprise me, given the massive demand and high price. I may have to revise my views on BA scarcity, at least in 9.8 (which I have to say is a very high benchmark).

[BronzeBruce13]

I think you hit the nail on the head with X-men 94 analysis. I feel the same way.

 

Not to shift the conversation too off-topic... but If I'm not mistaken, Jason Ewert produced the only 9.8 (and sold it privately) and at least (3) 9.6's as well. I'm not even mentioning the 9.4's which I believ there were a few as well. In hindsight, now that you bring the book up, I can't think of a better candidate to benefit from micro-trimming, especially for the payoff.

 

If a candidate escaped spine stress damage somehow and had enough edge wear (typically easier with darker background colors and/or poorer quality black ink) to drop it to a 9.0 to 9.2 otherwise. I can easily see a book with those characteristics having opportunity to reach a 9.4/9.6 with a trim in the right spot(s).

 

Given the various difficulties of finding even a raw 9.4 X-Men 94, if I owned any Ewert Produced X-men 94's I would think it wise to have CGC take another hard look at it regardless of when it was produced. He produced those copies in a relatively short time frame as I recall.

 

When it comes time for the 2nd installement, we'll touch base again and colaborate on what to include. Thanks for your input Tim

[BronzeBruce13]

Thanks namisgr

 

Cap 117 is a key... 1st Falcon and in far greater demand in even 9.6 than supply can provide.

 

ASM 104 is a good example of filler portions of the run that would be in demand primarily for completists.

 

The Adams Avengers issues are books I overlooked and belong on my list. 103 and 104 are similar to ASM 104 in my mind. Not ebnough demand to warrant inclusion.

 

As for Conan, I don't think those issues make the list, but I may have to double check 23-24 9.8 numbers as they may belong.

 

The Silver Surfer FF issues are worth considering as well although I can't remember anyone ever asking me for any.

 

Any title beyond letter "I" we'll have to wait and see.

 

Thanks for your input!

 

 

 

 

 

There's a whole bunch from the early Bronze Age (don't know if you want to include these, but perhaps you do since you list Cap #117, which predates all of these), including:

 

Amazing Spiderman #104 - zero copies in 9.8

 

Avengers #93 - zero copies in 9.8

Avengers #94 - one copy in 9.8

Avengers #95 - zero copies in 9.8

Avengers #103 - zero

Avengers #104 - one

 

Conan #14 - zero copies in 9.8

Conan #18 - one copy in 9.8

 

FF #117 - zero

FF #122 - zero

FF #119 - one

FF #120 - one

FF #123 - one

 

Thor #s 193-198 - zero

Thor #201- zero

Thor #203 - one

[r100comics]

Hi Bruce

 

Why no love for the God of Thunder ? I think Bob makes a valid point in mentioning Thor #193. That's definitely a semi-key issue in the run and has no 9.8's.

[BronzeBruce13]

I'm trying to only cover titles A-I in this discussion as there are 2 more segments (and a "what I forgot" finale) to come. I thought I explained that to Bob . I think Thor (T) comes after I

 

 

 

BTW... did you read the article? Probaly not or you would have seen your credit as the one responsible for the one and only 9.8 Hero for Hire

[r100comics]

BTW... did you read the article? Probaly not or you would have seen your credit as the one responsible for the one and only 9.8 Hero for Hire

 

My apologies Bruce. I forgot to congratulate you on the article. I read it, enjoyed it a lot and am looking forward to Parts 2 & 3. Thanks also for the acknowledgement.

[Bronty]

Well said.. excellent example with hulk 181.