I just soiled myself.....and I couldn't be happier.

[Team America-migration]

From reading your posts it's clear there's a LOT you dont understand.

 

 

Hey! Help me celebrate a dozen dozen posts!!!!!!

[JiveTurkeyMoFo]

Let me also state I like Doug a lot, and applaud his fantastic website and business model. His contribution to this hobby as a collector and dealer is noteworthy indeed (may I add in a positive way).

 

Not to bust your balls, but what is so "positive" about Doug? His website and business model are "borrowed" from Clink. The only thing he is noteworthy for is being such a fanatical high grade collector that he basically stole money from his clients to buy comics and ruined his career as a lawyer in the process. I just don't understand why some people here hold him in such high esteem.

 

I understand your criticism Tom, but don't share it.

 

I've been in the hobby as a high grade collector off and on for 16 years.

 

The exact # of people who I regard as "beyond reproach": 0

 

If the criteria for dealing in comicbooks is past behavior approaching the level of sainthood, I can't think of anyone who would qualify then. I let my own good judgement determine what to buy and who to buy it from, and I am generally willing to give almost anyone the benefit of the doubt. I used to count on the impartial opinion of a neutral third party when making slabbed purchases, but not so much anymore.

 

I like Doug as a fellow collector, and I like his business model, "borrowed" as it might be. I haven't thrown a lot of business his way, but mostly because Pedigree came online just about the time I started getting out of high grade, not for any reservation I had with dealing with Doug.

[Silver Surfer]

I just don't understand why some people here hold him in such high esteem.

 

Doug is the nicest guy/dealer I have ever dealt with before in this industry, period, and I enjoy his knowledge and participation on various threads. Maybe if you did business with him you would know that but instead you seem to go out of your way to bash the guy on a regular basis. We all make mistakes and Doug paid dearly for his so just leave it alone already.

[buttock]

The exact # of people who I regard as "beyond reproach": 0

 

[Red Hook]

From reading your posts it's clear there's a LOT you dont understand.

 

 

Hey! Help me celebrate a dozen dozen posts!!!!!!

 

 

Do I know you?

[divad]

I just don't understand why some people here hold him in such high esteem.

 

Doug is the nicest guy/dealer I have ever dealt with before in this industry, period, and I enjoy his knowledge and participation on various threads. Maybe if you did business with him you would know that but instead you seem to go out of your way to bash the guy on a regular basis. We all make mistakes and Doug paid dearly for his so just leave it alone already.

 

Are we turning this into a "Doug is God" thread? Gimme a break . . .

 

 

At the very least this action is blatant disrespect for the intelligence of many . . .

[Silver Surfer]

Are we turning this into a "Doug is God" thread? Gimme a break . . .

 

 

At the very least this action is blatant disrespect for the intelligence of many . . .

 

No not at all, I'm just tired of Tom's constant blasting of Doug. Check out his latest post in "this week in your collection", it never ends. Having said that, I'm done on this topic.

[jimjum12]

Let me see if I have this correctly...

 

FF #1 submitted as one of the first CGC graded comics. Get a 9.6 OW pages...

 

Sometime after the new labels come out, the comic is resubmitted and gets a 9.6 OW pages...

 

Comic is posted on a website for sale. Price $500,000...

 

After being posted, the comic displayed is changed from a 9.6 OW to 9.6 White pages...

 

You know...I could maybe buy the notion of the page change if it happened upon the new label resubmit but not upon a second new label resubmit. If there was a question on page quality, I'd expect it would happen before posting it for sale on the website for the kinds of money being asked here. Did CGC/seller think no one would notice?

 

If I remember correctly,Doug's second shot with the book was a simple reholder,in which the new label (same barcode #)was generated.The PQ wasn't even in question at that point.I've seen dozens of reholderings that ended up with the new label but same barcode #.I myself have a couple of early slabs that are definitely better than the off white designation they received.That could have easily happened with the FF # 1.GOD BLESS...

 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)

[Flaming_Telepath]

Let me see if I have this correctly...

 

FF #1 submitted as one of the first CGC graded comics. Get a 9.6 OW pages...

 

Sometime after the new labels come out, the comic is resubmitted and gets a 9.6 OW pages...

 

Comic is posted on a website for sale. Price $500,000...

 

After being posted, the comic displayed is changed from a 9.6 OW to 9.6 White pages...

 

You know...I could maybe buy the notion of the page change if it happened upon the new label resubmit but not upon a second new label resubmit. If there was a question on page quality, I'd expect it would happen before posting it for sale on the website for the kinds of money being asked here. Did CGC/seller think no one would notice?

 

If I remember correctly,Doug's second shot with the book was a simple reholder,in which the new label (same barcode #)was generated.The PQ wasn't even in question at that point.I've seen dozens of reholderings that ended up with the new label but same barcode #.I myself have a couple of early slabs that are definitely better than the off white designation they received.That could have easily happened with the FF # 1.GOD BLESS...

 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)

 

Yeah, a reholdering will ALWAYS end up with the same bar code.

 

But a regrade (which ostensibly, this must have been to have a change in condition) NEVER ends up with the same bar code.

 

Unless you're Mr Schmell (with a silent 'ch') and you don't want a paper trail.

[The_Wing_Kong]

Does anyone have all the notes on this books history from CGC. I'm just curious what it says. Sorry if this was already posted in the thread.

[Captain Tripps]

Turkey,

 

Just saw this thread and finally took a look at it. I had no idea the "soiled myself" reference was to the FF 1 so I never checked the thread out.

 

I was hinting that I'd be bringing this book with me to CGC (which was on June 12th) because I knew, in my heart of hearts, that the pages were nicer than off-white. Remember, I owned, smelled and looked at this book for over 4 years before CGC opened its doors in 2000. CGC was a little bit loose on overall grading at first and very tight (to a fault, imho) on page quality. Remember, this was the 3rd book ever graded. Talk about an early submission and a good candidate for a page quality check.

 

Anyway, I submitted it for a page quality review on the 12th and it came back WHITE!! I knew it would be at least off-white to white and getting it to white just confirmed what I believed all along. Again, not the type of book to send in through the mail or Fedex, but I decided to bring it with me last trip. The cert. # is the same, I believe, because it wasn't a re-submission, it was a review and CGC doesn't change the bar code # on a review.

 

Doug

[Captain Tripps]

Comicdey,

 

Believe it or not, this has nothing to do with increasing the book's value. I am a collector (probably the biggest one you'd ever know!!) and intrinsically, I knew the pages were nicer than off-white and obviously, wanted the better pages. Yes, I put it on my web-ste in the vault section with a price, but I really don't expect it to sell for that amount and I am extremely happy owning the book. If the book came back with white pages, and then I changed the list price to $525,000 or sonmething, then I would be trying to capitalize on the page quality change. I didn't do that and never will. I don't really think the difference between off-white and white would matter much to an investor or wealthy collector who wanted to shell ourt big bucks to own an FF 1 in 9.6

 

The bottom line is, the pages were never off-white (only in 3 graders' minds). I saw the pages, as did Tom Brulato and the dealer I bought it from, Dan Greenhalgh. Ask them if they thought the pages were off-white!! I've had so many Pacific Coast books go from cream to off-white to off-white or off-white to white that getting the white pages didn't surprise me one bit. Give CGC some slack. This was the 3rd book they ever looked at. I'm pretty sure they will also admit they were harsh on the page q to begin with.

 

Doug

[Captain Tripps]

Tom,

 

Thems fighting words, buddy. Before you make negative remarks toward a person, perhaps you should meet them or get to know them at least. If I recall, your problem with me was that I charged $18.00 for Fedex Express shipping, which, if you would have asked, covers up to 2 books, all handling and all insurance costs from Florida. I would be losing more $$ if I charged any less.

 

However, you then find out I lost my legal license and then its okay to jump on my back, call me a low-life, etc. etc, to justify your uncalled for position that i'm no good, etc.

 

Tom, I don't even know who the hell you are, how old you are, where you live, etc., etc, but I would at least like to get to know you, or at the worst meet you, before making judgments on you. Too bad you can't, or wouldn't, do the same.

 

Doug

[sterlingcomics]

The bottom line is, the pages were never off-white (only in 3 graders' minds)

 

My understanding is that one person determines the page quality, not the three graders.

 

This of course makes it an even more interesting gap in how CGC determines page quality, since it is essentially one person's opinion.

[Ze-man]

The bottom line is, the pages were never off-white (only in 3 graders' minds)

 

My understanding is that one person determines the page quality, not the three graders.

 

This of course makes it an even more interesting gap in how CGC determines page quality, since it is essentially one person's opinion.

 

Dont forget to add how important many collectors feel PQ to be as well. Not to mention it is the easiest part of grading a book, unlike how personal preference might affect downgrading for various flaws.

 

PQ is what is it. OW to White is a huge jump, no matter when it was graded.

 

We need grading robots, not humans. Robots I say.

 

Ze-

[esquirecomics]

But Doug has an incredible history of resub bumps, better in fact, then any other CGC submitter that I know of: an X-Men # 1 Pacific Coast from 9.6 to 9.8, an FF # 18 from 9.6 to 9.8, a Daredevil # 1 from 9.4 to 9.6, and now this book. I'm sure there are others, these are just a handful that I'm aware of.

 

He is fulfilling exactly the type of business model CGC envisoned back in 1999. I've heard it on the tape recordings of the planning sessions. Resubs and "challenges" to CGC decisions were always to be part of the game. But that was said behind the scenes and only to a select group of of people. To the general public the CGC message was quite different. They were the community "policeman". To be sure, CGC has brought a great deal of benefit to our community. But as always, there never seems to be too great a difference between the angel and the devil. One follows the other, and sometimes plays both roles.

 

Yeah, but, Mark, doesn't the fact that the unchanged serial number point to a different (i.e. non-traditional) method of submission in this case? Is this non-traditional method mentioned on those tape recordings?

 

Speaking of which, we're all still waiting for the transcripts of those tapes ....

 

The problem with "traditional" vs "non-traditional" is that we really need to know what the exact standards and policies that exist with and are implemented by CGC to reach an informed determination. Based on what we do know from anecdotal experience, as discussed in this thread, the lack of a new serial number does appear troubling. I am more than interested in knowing CGC's response to this new information. Has anyone asked them?

 

As far as the tapes, I'll check with the individual who possesses them. I have volunteered to pay for the transcription costs.

[esquirecomics]

The PQ on the cgc label will make no difference to the sale price of this book.

 

it will not sell to a 'label' collector, and it's history is well known.

 

I would tend to agree.

 

The concern/issue surrounding this particular book is really with CGC's treatment of it, rather than Doug's motive.

[Ze-man]

 

The problem with "traditional" vs "non-traditional" is that we really need to know what the exact standards and policies that exist with and are implemented by CGC to reach an informed determination. Based on what we do know from anecdotal experience, as discussed in this thread, the lack of a new serial number does appear troubling.

 

 

For those of you that do not speak lawyer.

 

He said, "We dont know how the f CGC grades our books, they wont tell us."

[esquirecomics]

The bottom line is, the pages were never off-white (only in 3 graders' minds)

 

My understanding is that one person determines the page quality, not the three graders.

 

This of course makes it an even more interesting gap in how CGC determines page quality, since it is essentially one person's opinion.

 

Is there any way to discover the identify of who determined the PQ the first time and this most recent re-PQ?

 

Has not those who served as "expert" graders at CGC always been "expert" graders? This whole notion of moving targets of strict vs loose grading at CGC depending upon when the book was graded and/or who graded it is disgraceful. Not because subjectivity is not present, as well as human fraility - of course they are - but because CGC does not know how to represent its interests in this community amidst a growing storm of the increasing appearance, if not more, of impropriety as to how it operates its business.

 

This book was a well-known quantity, both as to its historical significance to CGC (3rd graded book), its value and its owner. To simply change its "opinion" - based on what is unknown - has the potential for far greater damage, IMHO (and especially in the long run), to the credibility of CGC than the benefit of whatever it feels was reaped. This is just another example that cuts to the heart of CGC's past strengths, and yet we have no official CGC response anywhere.

[esquirecomics]

Turkey,

 

Just saw this thread and finally took a look at it. I had no idea the "soiled myself" reference was to the FF 1 so I never checked the thread out.

 

I was hinting that I'd be bringing this book with me to CGC (which was on June 12th) because I knew, in my heart of hearts, that the pages were nicer than off-white. Remember, I owned, smelled and looked at this book for over 4 years before CGC opened its doors in 2000. CGC was a little bit loose on overall grading at first and very tight (to a fault, imho) on page quality. Remember, this was the 3rd book ever graded. Talk about an early submission and a good candidate for a page quality check.

 

Anyway, I submitted it for a page quality review on the 12th and it came back WHITE!! I knew it would be at least off-white to white and getting it to white just confirmed what I believed all along. Again, not the type of book to send in through the mail or Fedex, but I decided to bring it with me last trip. The cert. # is the same, I believe, because it wasn't a re-submission, it was a review and CGC doesn't change the bar code # on a review.

 

Doug

 

Doug, I am glad you have the decency to continue to enter these dialogues that involve you and respond to questions or provide clarifications.

 

I just have several brief questions for you (with no hidden sentiment as to your conduct. I am only interested in the CGC process):

 

What conversations, if any, did you have with CGC personnel regarding the review of the book?

 

With whom were those conversations, if any, with?

 

When you submitted the book for pq re-review did you offer any arguments as to why you believed the page quality was erroneously under-determined and, if so, with whom did these conversations take place, or did you simply submit the book, wait, and then receive it back?

 

I appreciate your time and forthrightness in responding.