Philly Con reports...????

[langur88]

Dave, why the combative tone over the personal assessment by collectors of a convention? I felt there was very little in the way of fresh material. I thought many dealers have not adjusted their prices accordingly. I thought the show was somewhat small for a show billed as a major northeast convention. Given these three items, combined with airfare, hotel rooms and realted costs (and I brought the family along for this one), I think the show was not worth the time, effort or expense.

Is it really constructive to insult board members who do not share your opinion? Nobody on this board ever wants to give a negative con report...

I think you'll find your in the minority is your analysis of the show although I will add that if you had a great show with strong sales, congrats.

 

I AM NOT BEING COMBATIVE.

 

Just calling it the way I see it. It's the broad brush "bad" review. Who's definition of "fresh" material? There is no conspiracy on the dealers part to bring or not bring new finds to market. Maybe somebody has to expand their collecting interest to a realistic level instead of only 9.4 Silver Age frog covers. Everybody that I dealt with at the show seemed to have a positive attitude. That may be because my customers read their books.

 

Wizards magazine and web-site clearly stated who and what would be at the Philly show and they delivered what was promised. Your additional travel expenses are not relevant to the quality of the show. The only folks that were disapointed were the same people that always are unhappy for one reason if not the other usually due to unrealistic expectations and poor planning. I was there with a group of over a dozen and we always have a great time at Philly Wizard World.

 

I did not insult anybody. I was speaking in general and using sarcasm.

[blazingbob]

Here is my Wizard Philly feedback.

 

I had some help with some of the points from a fellow dealer who has done shows for years. I agree with some of his points and it was interesting what he had to say.

 

Dear Wizard/Promoters:

 

Rather than filling out the Wizard World quick questionnaire I decided to write a letter outlining a concern I have regarding conventions in general. This is not just a comment regarding Wizard shows but to all promoters running “Comic Book” shows that are or fast becoming Industry media events.

 

As a dealer I currently pay $800 to $900 per table and attend almost all Wizard shows except Texas. My business is to sell high grade Golden/Silver/Bronze Age material. Strictly comics, no toys, no autographs, no photos, no videos. I attend the show with the expectation that the promoter will be advertising and spending my money towards bringing in customers that buy my type of material or comics in general.

 

I understand the need to bring in comic artists since without them I wouldn’t have the comics to sell in the first place. I have no problem with the amount of money promoters pay them in order to fly them in, put them up in a hotel, feed them etc. I have no problems with them charging for sketches etc. Comic artists generally result in comic collectors wanting and buying issues that they did. And sadly I know that there are a lot of artists out there who are paying their own way.

 

However, I am not a big fan of my money being paid out to host, feed and drive around actors who charge for autographs. I would love for Wizard/Promoters to pay my booth costs, feed me, drive me to the airport and then allow me to make money selling my comics. I know that I bring people to the show and that they “make you money” by coming. If actors want to charge for autographs let them pay like every other “dealer”. I don’t see how having the Dukes of Hazzard cars at a show, washed up retired porn stars or Lou Ferrigno is going to do anything for my sales. All they do is benefit promoters by bringing in non-comic fans at the gate and themselves at my expense.

 

Another big area of concern is the cost of admission ranging from $10 - $25 to these “media events”. Now while everybody may think $10 - $25 is reasonable I have heard more and more comic book collectors stating that it wasn’t worth the price of admission to attend the show. That shows me that more focus is being paid to the “guests” than the dealers.

 

Another disturbing trend is big crowds but few comic collectors. I see the “national” dealers but fewer and fewer of the local dealers which is one of the main reasons collectors will travel to shows. Why would a collector travel to Philly or any other city to see the same “National” dealers when they can save money and see me or their local National Guy in New York, Chicago, Detroit, CA etc? Collectors want to see different material, so do National dealers for that matter when we are looking for books on customer want lists. I know that the internet has changed things, I know that EBAY has changed the selling landscape but it’s not perfect. Why wouldn’t Wizard or any other promoter not try and capture that internet audience with a “reach out and touch the book” campaign? Has Wizard or any of the big promoters thought about sharing or purchasing each other’s mailing lists? Now I’m sure some promoters are laughing but exactly how many of you are really competing for the same market? With the exception of Canada and last years Wizard Atlanta/Heroes Con fiasco I don’t see too many feuds currently going on. How can Reed Promotions bring over 15,000 people to a New York show and yet we don’t see the same number showing up at the Philly or New York Big Apple Shows?

 

Lastly, all I see on flyers are the “guests”. If we are lucky a promoter might throw together a dealer list with just a name of who is there. This is not “advertising” and is pretty lame if you ask me. I shouldn’t have to pay in be in your show handout. Why do dealers have to jump in front of TV crews at shows when promoters should be bringing them over in the first place? If you are concerned about appearance than maybe if the dealer knew he would be on TV he “might” make an effort to dress better that day. Dealers deserve just as much publicity and PR as the “guests” since we are basically paying to get them there in the first place. I would suggest that maybe some of the advertising dollars be spent talking to and getting some dealers to come up with some books that might bring people to the shows. All I hear lately is “There was nothing to buy”. Pretty funny that some of those complaining never stop at my booth to see what I have. Or maybe promoters go back and focus on what the “primary” theme of the show is – Comic Books, not toys, movies, actors or video games. If promoters want to run an autograph show than let me know and I’ll go find a Comic book show to setup at.

[fingfangfoom]

"I am not being combative"

 

Really? Why shout in caps?

 

Fresh material= new to market gold, silver or bronze collections.

 

I never suggested a conspiracy among dealers to withhold new finds.

 

I am realistic, also I do not collect frog covers, although I'm not

above collecting gorilla covers.

 

Of my 100+ box collection only a little over 200 books I own are

slabbed. Of those slabbed books maybe 60 are over 9.4.

I read my books many times over.

 

I did not question Wizards roster of guests.

 

Travel expenses most certainly are relevant. If I'm unable to locate

decent books or have a large quantity of dealers to choose from,

then I'm not going to return due to those travel expenses. This is what

I base my definition of a quality show on.

 

Great feedback Bob.

[jbud73]

Comments from the last few shows I have attended / read seem to be indicating that the Convention circuit outside of San Diego / Chicago and Possibly NY (though 1 year does nto a show make) are having some difficulties attracting the customers comic book dealers need to see.

 

As I said after WonderCon and the last Wizard show I went to - really lamented NOT pulling the trigger on internet purchases to save money for the show. It might be that, as Flying Donut has mentioned, "many of the regional shows, even larger national shows, may being going the way of the DoDo bird soon.

 

Personally I love buying books in person every time - but most of the shows I've attended recently are really just excuses to meet up with friends in the collecting CGC board community. For example after Oakland this year many of the Board members were indicating that they would not be attending next year and we'd be better off just arranging to get together and have a BBQ/dinner and invite some of our fav. dealers Point is that the people saying this are exactly the type of people the dealers WANT at the Con, yet there are fewer and fewer reasons for them to go.

[Kevin Boyd]

Great letter Bob, you always raise some good points.

[jimm94]

Bob brings up some great points that perfectly tie into why finfangfoom was disappointed in the show. GA/SA/BA back issues in higher grades could almost be considered a niche product at today's larger conventions. If your primary focus/reason for going to a show is to purchase books of this type, it can be very easy to feel discouraged and feel that a con is a "bad show" if you don't find what you're looking for at a price you're willing to pay. And that's a very legitimate perception to have. Even if you aren't going for higher grade books, overgrading and overpricing can still be a turnoff.

 

Personally, I appreciate other aspects of what cons have to offer such as artists alley, panel discussions, collectible toys, etc... As such, I'm much less likely to be disappointed in a show because those elements of fandom (yes, a dirty word to some) appeal to me. I enjoy just being around this stuff. Clearly, wandering around not spending is not good for any of the dealers at a convention, but that's not the case with me. My collecting interests are such that I can always find more books than my budget allows. It's just a question of whether or not I'm in a spending mood.

 

I wholeheartedly agree that promoters should be doing more to attract the hardcore back issue crowd. Buying books raw in person is my preferred way of purchasing comics. It's important to me that conventions are a heathly market for doing business, and that online selling venues don't completely take over. However, it's a three way street. The promoter needs to get the collectors in the door, the collectors need to bring the $$$, and the dealers need to deliver the goods in terms of quality/variety of material, grading, and pricing.

[MK Ultra]

It seems that perhaps high grade BA and earlier books are not abundant?

 

If that's true, what's the hurry for a dealer to sell at cut rate prices, they're not going to get them again that soon, right?

 

I'm not saying they're not out there, and sometimes in quantity, but it seems that they're difficult to come by. For example, BronzeBruce has an incredible collection, those books are never going to be available for sale again. How many other people buy high grade bronze? It's not like the dealers have a catalog, "Okay we've got the collection out of Podunk, Utah, let's hold off before getting the one out of Scranton PA so we can move some of this other stuff first".

 

On the other hand mid to low grade books were everywhere, dealers we're selling for as little as .10, and people were busying themselves digging for gold and spending their money on those.

[langur88]

"I am not being combative"

 

Really? Why shout in caps?

 

Fresh material= new to market gold, silver or bronze collections.

 

I never suggested a conspiracy among dealers to withhold new finds.

 

I am realistic, also I do not collect frog covers, although I'm not

above collecting gorilla covers.

 

Of my 100+ box collection only a little over 200 books I own are

slabbed. Of those slabbed books maybe 60 are over 9.4.

I read my books many times over.

 

I did not question Wizards roster of guests.

 

Travel expenses most certainly are relevant. If I'm unable to locate

decent books or have a large quantity of dealers to choose from,

then I'm not going to return due to those travel expenses. This is what

I base my definition of a quality show on.

 

Great feedback Bob.

 

I am amazed at how many comic book "collectors" have no sense of humor or understand sarcasm. I used the caps to make a point. Wizard cannot plan the show around you. Your travel expenses are relevant to you. Wizard will not move the show to accomadate individuals. You will have to move closer to the show. Thanks for the definition of fresh material but as far as I know there are no more Gold and Silver age comics being printed.

[langur88]

 

I am not a big fan of my money being paid out to host, feed and drive around actors who charge for autographs. I would love for Wizard/Promoters to pay my booth costs, feed me, drive me to the airport and then allow me to make money selling my comics. I know that I bring people to the show and that they “make you money” by coming. If actors want to charge for autographs let them pay like every other “dealer”. I don’t see how having the Dukes of Hazzard cars at a show, washed up retired porn stars or Lou Ferrigno is going to do anything for my sales. All they do is benefit promoters by bringing in non-comic fans at the gate and themselves at my expense.

 

Another big area of concern is the cost of admission ranging from $10 - $25 to these “media events”. Now while everybody may think $10 - $25 is reasonable I have heard more and more comic book collectors stating that it wasn’t worth the price of admission to attend the show. That shows me that more focus is being paid to the “guests” than the dealers.

 

How can Reed Promotions bring over 15,000 people to a New York show and yet we don’t see the same number showing up at the Philly or New York Big Apple Shows?

 

Maybe promoters go back and focus on what the “primary” theme of the show is – Comic Books, not toys, movies, actors or video games. If promoters want to run an autograph show than let me know and I’ll go find a Comic book show to setup at.

 

 

Actually Reed had over 30,000 admissions at their NYC show.

 

After reading your post could you please explain why you keep setting up at personality driven shows and complain but you do not set up at the New York City Comic Book Spectacular which is all comic books and admission is only $5? Otherwise what you preach and what you do are different. You can't have it both ways.

[langur88]

It seems that perhaps high grade BA and earlier books are not abundant?

 

If that's true, what's the hurry for a dealer to sell at cut rate prices, they're not going to get them again that soon, right?

 

I'm not saying they're not out there, and sometimes in quantity, but it seems that they're difficult to come by. For example, BronzeBruce has an incredible collection, those books are never going to be available for sale again. How many other people buy high grade bronze? It's not like the dealers have a catalog, "Okay we've got the collection out of Podunk, Utah, let's hold off before getting the one out of Scranton PA so we can move some of this other stuff first".

 

On the other hand mid to low grade books were everywhere, dealers we're selling for as little as .10, and people were busying themselves digging for gold and spending their money on those.

 

[blazingbob]

Dave, the last time I aired a comment about a Boston show you were a little upset that I "aired some laundry".

 

But feel free to post and give me a free pass and I'll be happy to outline why I don't do the New York Comic Spectacular

[Foolkiller]

It seems that perhaps high grade BA and earlier books are not abundant?

 

If that's true, what's the hurry for a dealer to sell at cut rate prices, they're not going to get them again that soon, right?

 

I'm not saying they're not out there, and sometimes in quantity, but it seems that they're difficult to come by. For example, BronzeBruce has an incredible collection, those books are never going to be available for sale again. How many other people buy high grade bronze? It's not like the dealers have a catalog, "Okay we've got the collection out of Podunk, Utah, let's hold off before getting the one out of Scranton PA so we can move some of this other stuff first".

 

On the other hand mid to low grade books were everywhere, dealers we're selling for as little as .10, and people were busying themselves digging for gold and spending their money on those.

 

I'm a little bored waiting for my room service breakfast order -- so here's my take on this: Nobody's suggesting that dealers sell their high grade at cut rate prices. I'd personally be happy with some nice strictly graded 8.5s and 9.0s -- but I simply did not see a lot of them -- priced reasonably given the overall (dealer and ebay) availability of the books. I'm not suggesting that they give me 50% off. I'm asking for them to grade well and then price fairly.

 

Will BronzeBruce's books be available for sale? Never say never. You don't know that. Books out of people's collections are bought and sold everyday. Some are keepers, but ultimately everything is for sale at a certain price (look at the FF#1 9.6).

 

Dave, the bottom line is that to me, while volume sales are driven by low/mid grade and that's where the majority of collectors are... it is vintage high grade books that charge the market and bring excitement to it. Nobody says, I found a mid grade 60s DC Collection woo hoo!!!! The bottom line is that HG, rare GA, and keys drive the heart of the vintage market, whether or not it's the high volume sales, it's what creates interest in buzz and pride in owning back issues at all.

 

Furthermore, let me just say that it was not vintage HG collectors/dealers who expressed any disappointment with the show:

 

my friend Mary Ann, total reader/collector, did not come back for Sunday and basically referred to the show as lackluster.

 

we had several people come up to the booth and complain in general about the guests like Erica Durance forcing you to buy a photo and then charging $25 for it and her signature... a total f--kin' rip off.

 

There were others who were with me like DAM60 who were not thrilled with the show but had a good time because of the social aspect -- but did not feel there was an energy or buzz in the room.

 

I think that the con overall was enjoyable for most people, and I enjoyed myself, but I do complain when I see consistently high prices, in some cases for overgraded books, and I just didn't see a lot of books in the room that made me really take notice. It had me wishing Metro was present so that at least I had some spectacular to look at beyond Harley, Bob, Steve Ritter's and Ted's displays. I actually went onto Metro and started looking around last night -- maybe Vincent was right (though he said it toungue and cheek) the best con is on his website.

[langur88]

Dave, the last time I aired a comment about a Boston show you were a little upset that I "aired some laundry".

 

But feel free to post and give me a free pass and I'll be happy to outline why I don't do the New York Comic Spectacular

 

Not sure what laundry you are referring to but it was most likely incorrect information in your post. Feel free to send it this way. You do have tunnel vision when it comes to comic book conventions much as the blind men and the elephant. You see only what effects you and not a lot more that affects the majority of the hobby.

 

Go for it. This is your pass. I will toss you the easy one.

You have had nothing valid as far as how cons should be run in private but go ahead in a public forum.

 

Why do you complain about non-comic related distractions and high admissions at "comic book" shows but will not set up at a show that is cheap, only caters to comic book collectors and is located in the world's greatest city?

 

Be fair, logical and rational.

[langur88]

 

Dave, the bottom line is that to me, while volume sales are driven by low/mid grade and that's where the majority of collectors are... it is vintage high grade books that charge the market and bring excitement to it. Nobody says, I found a mid grade 60s DC Collection woo hoo!!!! The bottom line is that HG, rare GA, and keys drive the heart of the vintage market, whether or not it's the high volume sales, it's what creates interest in buzz and pride in owning back issues at all.

 

 

I agree with you 100% on this. The woo hoo made me laugh.

 

Other than gas prices and legal problems, what are your top 5 reasons for Wizard World Philly 2006 being smaller? Has anyone compared the dealer list from 2005? There was no porn alley either. What and who else was there last year?

[Foolkiller]

I'm going to go off the top of my head here:

 

Bedrock City did not set up. Motor City had a smaller display. Metropolis, who set up last year for sure, was not set up. I didn't see Nelson Dodds.

 

That's just four who either weren't there or who had a smaller display -- that's kinda off the cuff but, you get where I'm coming from.

[langur88]

I'm going to go off the top of my head here:

 

Bedrock City did not set up. Motor City had a smaller display. Metropolis, who set up last year for sure, was not set up. I didn't see Nelson Dodds.

 

That's just four who either weren't there or who had a smaller display -- that's kinda off the cuff but, you get where I'm coming from.

 

Motor City had the same size as last year, 2 booths. I was directly across from them. What other comic book dealers were missing from last year? Does anybody have the dealer list from 2005? This may be an illusion due to the absence of at least 30 video and other non-comic dealers being at Chiller Theater the same weekend. How about Father's Day in Philly 2007?

[JuliusSeizure]

Dave, the last time I aired a comment about a Boston show you were a little upset that I "aired some laundry".

 

But feel free to post and give me a free pass and I'll be happy to outline why I don't do the New York Comic Spectacular

 

Not sure what laundry you are referring to but it was most likely incorrect information in your post. Feel free to send it this way. You do have tunnel vision when it comes to comic book conventions much as the blind men and the elephant. You see only what effects you and not a lot more that affects the majority of the hobby.

 

Go for it. This is your pass. I will toss you the easy one.

You have had nothing valid as far as how cons should be run in private but go ahead in a public forum.

 

Why do you complain about non-comic related distractions and high admissions at "comic book" shows but will not set up at a show that is cheap, only caters to comic book collectors and is located in the world's greatest city?

 

Be fair, logical and rational.

 

[ronm3-migration]

As far as shows go they are always hit and miss. To me the New York Con sucked as far as comics go. It was packed and people were turned away by the thousands.As a comic collector it sucked.

San Diego is always the best show for comics.

I go to shows and I try to have fun. I go around and speak to the dealers and if they have something, great if not maybe next time.

I go to socialize now and thats really it. If I find some stuff I want than that is gravy.

I like going around and speaking to the dealers and running into people I know in the hobby.

 

If I was a dealer setting up that would be a different story and I agree with Bob's letter. These promoters put no effort into advertising. They try and keep as much of the money as possible.

I would love to see a promoter come on here and state exactly where all of the money goes and what the actual costs are to run the show.

If I were a dealer setting up at a Carbonaro show on a consistant basis I would demand that info.

[Pirate]

 

 

we had several people come up to the booth and complain in general about the guests like Erica Durance forcing you to buy a photo and then charging $25 for it and her signature... a total f--kin' rip off.

 

 

Most celebrities charge $20+ for a signed picture. Be thankful adam west wasn't there as he charges upwards of $45. John Schneider was at megacon and sold out of photo's by sunday morning at $20 a pop. I'm sure he bought at least a 1000 pictures as his line was jammed the entire weekend. Now [embarrassing lack of self control] like playmates and old B stars for $20 is silly, but for decent celebrities, not a bad price imo.

[blazingbob]

Dave:

Nothing valid and tunnel vision. I guess you don't know that I have some knowledge of the convention business when I was working for Vinny who was an original owner of Big Apple. I do know something about the "finances" involved in running a show and what the profit margins on a show are. It's a lot of work for not a lot of money.

 

Let's see, I don't do your show based on business decisions.

 

Just so you know here is how I would classify a show and base my decisions

Grade A = Good buying and selling

Grade B = Bad buying and good selling.

Grade C = Good buying and bad selling

Grade D = Bad buying and selling but lots of inquiries/negotiation/few sales***

Grade F = Bad buying and selling without nobody to negotiate with

 

***Generally a show where I have to look that maybe I brought the wrong inventory. Now while Detroit has always been a weak market but I did a 50% off sale at the show and did very well. However, at some other shows it didn't matter what I brought to the show.

 

I have all my sales tracked by show. I give promoters more than a few chances before I base a decision not to do the show again. Boston show sales were sliding and I basically made a business decision. In addition I look at driving 4-5 hours up and 4-5 hours back. My prices may be a factor but I can't negotiate a lower price if there is nobody in front of the table looking for my type of material.

 

Dave, I don't see you as a Promoter. You are a dealer (primary focus) who runs local shows.

 

I also feel that there are very few "Promoters" who are well capitalized to put on a Comic show. Or know where advertising dollars can be best spent that will bring in buyers. Or understand the demographics of buyers who may need babysitting, things for the kids to do while Daddy shops etc.

 

Will a "cheap" show be a good show? I do very few local shows because they are cheap. Cheap doesn't always go in the same sentence as High grade or buyers with money. Is your mailing list more extensive than Mike's? Will you be bringing in those international buyers, out of town buyers for a one day show? Except for the drive I'm looking at the same numbers as a Boston show.