Obadiah Oldbuck vs. Superman

[mica]

Romance and funny animal comics were the "super" dominant forces in comic books at times, way more than super heroes ever were except for the occasional blip in the space time continuum.

 

dangerous words on these Boards, but if it is true, then you should escape with only a few scratches and bruises

 

What was the blip Bob? 1938 - 1949? 1962 to present? I think five decades of dominance qualify as slightly more than a "blip".... don't you?

It's a blip if you have the mindset that comics started in the 14th Century.

 

I kid Bob.

[BLBcomics-migration]

What was the blip Bob? 1938 - 1949? 1962 to present? I think five decades of dominance qualify as slightly more than a "blip".... don't you?

It's a blip if you have the mindset that comics started in the 14th Century.

 

I kid Bob.

 

Actually, comics begin much earlier than that - and the first USA comic book was in 1842, in case you just tuned in.

 

And super hero titles began falling like leaves off the comics tree right after World War Two - DC and Marvel gave up the last blip of that ghost by 1949 in the main. Disney and Warner Bros Dell comics ruled the roost from the ending of WW2 thru the advent of the Second Heroic Age

 

For a goodly portion of the 1970s, the main sellers for us were Barry Smith's Conan and Wrightson's Swamp Thing (quasi-super hero, but not really), along with anything Robert Crumb came out with.

 

I look at comic books as more than the floppy pamphlets some here get overly enthused about. In the late 1970s Garfield books were big sellers for me, as were Peanuts comic books of all kinds & stripes. In the 1980s, Calvin & Hobbes comic books flew out the door.

 

I would order a thousand new Calvin & Hobbes comic books as an initial order and sell then all soon after hitting the door and hustle up reorders.

 

If a comic book store had to rely on strictly super hero comic books, it would soon close its doors. What kind of dominance is that?

 

But mica be totally correct on a level or two thereabouts. Even if we date from just when, cough, cough, Yellow Kid In Mcfadden's Flats, many of the comic books of the Platinum Era were also big sellers.

[ciorac]

What was the blip Bob? 1938 - 1949? 1962 to present? I think five decades of dominance qualify as slightly more than a "blip".... don't you?

It's a blip if you have the mindset that comics started in the 14th Century.

 

I kid Bob.

 

If a comic book store had to rely on strictly super hero comic books, it would soon close its doors. What kind of dominance is that?

 

.

 

How long would they stay open without them???

[BLBcomics-migration]

we ain't a debating not having them, that would be dumb not to carry a full line of everything comics, in my mind, rather, if this "dominant" genre is all a comic book store carried, it would be bankrupt with the quickness

 

Bill, there be life after super hero

[ciorac]

we ain't a debating not having them, that would be dumb not to carry a full line of everything comics, in my mind, rather, if this "dominant" genre is all a comic book store carried, it would be bankrupt with the quickness

 

Bill, there be life after super hero

 

There be life before and after superhero to be sure. I collect more than just superheroes, I am just continually astonished by how you keep trying to minimize their importance in the history of comics. Isn't it possible to make use aware of how important the non-hero stuff was without diminishing the hero stuff? Why does it always have to be a comparison, a skewed one at that, when it comes to these types of discussions with you?

 

Saying superhero comics are a "blip" on the comics timeline is asinine. Plain and simple.

[Scrooge]

Saying superhero comics are a "blip" on the comics timeline is asinine. Plain and simple.

 

How about: superhero comics are a large "blip" in the global comics timeline? Is it still as asinine?

[goldust40]

Saying superhero comics are a "blip" on the comics timeline is asinine. Plain and simple.

 

How about: superhero comics are a large "blip" in the global comics timeline? Is it still as asinine?

 

Although obviously not dominant on a global level for various reasons, super-hero comics can scarcely be called a "blip" simply because of the longevity of the genre, and the familiarity of the major characters, regardless of sales, throughout the world.

 

Comic shops, especially in bigger cities, need diversification in order to survive, hence the focus on merchandise, toys and ancillary products at the front of stores. However the super-hero genre still dominates the new comic racks, and has done since the beginning of the DM proper. Take the heroes out of the equation and you lose a huge proportion of your readership. Wouldn't call that a blip on the domestic level, either...

[Scrooge]

Saying superhero comics are a "blip" on the comics timeline is asinine. Plain and simple.

 

How about: superhero comics are a large "blip" in the global comics timeline? Is it still as asinine?

 

Although obviously not dominant on a global level for various reasons, super-hero comics can scarcely be called a "blip" simply because of the longevity of the genre, and the familiarity of the major characters, regardless of sales, throughout the world.

 

Comic shops, especially in bigger cities, need diversification in order to survive, hence the focus on merchandise, toys and ancillary products at the front of stores. However the super-hero genre still dominates the new comic racks, and has done since the beginning of the DM proper. Take the heroes out of the equation and you lose a huge proportion of your readership. Wouldn't call that a blip on the domestic level, either...

 

Well, I was simply trying to add a little international perspective to the discussion. On the boards, and for perfectly understandable reasons I must concede, the focus is on US comics; yet, I know countless people, all avid comic readers, whose superhero exposure is limited and certainly not likely to expand. I would say there are most likely to have read Frank Miller's Sin City, Buscema's or Alcala's Conan, Pinis's ElfQuest, the Mad parodies, ... but they know very little about super-heroes and are unlikely to pick up any books from that genre.

 

Of course, Bob's "blip" comment reflects either a poor explanation of his position or a blind-spot and I can't subscribe to that opinion. My opinion is that super-hero as a genre is really very much a North-American-specific phenomenon on the whole. I'll admit that it's a personal pet-peeve that most ignore the fact that super-heroes are not driving the comic market in Europe, Asia or South America. The super-hero genre has a lot to offer for sure, but it's not the end-all of the comic medium.

[bluechip]

 

 

It may have begun that way but some of those North-Am superheroes have migrated to virtually every other market, are published in numerous languages, and fill the movie screens around the world, earning billions from people who have never set foot in North America

[adamstrange]

Saying superhero comics are a "blip" on the comics timeline is asinine. Plain and simple.

 

How about: superhero comics are a large "blip" in the global comics timeline? Is it still as asinine?

 

Although obviously not dominant on a global level for various reasons, super-hero comics can scarcely be called a "blip" simply because of the longevity of the genre, and the familiarity of the major characters, regardless of sales, throughout the world.

 

Comic shops, especially in bigger cities, need diversification in order to survive, hence the focus on merchandise, toys and ancillary products at the front of stores. However the super-hero genre still dominates the new comic racks, and has done since the beginning of the DM proper. Take the heroes out of the equation and you lose a huge proportion of your readership. Wouldn't call that a blip on the domestic level, either...

 

Well, I was simply trying to add a little international perspective to the discussion. On the boards, and for perfectly understandable reasons I must concede, the focus is on US comics; yet, I know countless people, all avid comic readers, whose superhero exposure is limited and certainly not likely to expand. I would say there are most likely to have read Frank Miller's Sin City, Buscema's or Alcala's Conan, Pinis's ElfQuest, the Mad parodies, ... but they know very little about super-heroes and are unlikely to pick up any books from that genre.

 

Of course, Bob's "blip" comment reflects either a poor explanation of his position or a blind-spot and I can't subscribe to that opinion. My opinion is that super-hero as a genre is really very much a North-American-specific phenomenon on the whole. I'll admit that it's a personal pet-peeve that most ignore the fact that super-heroes are not driving the comic market in Europe, Asia or South America. The super-hero genre has a lot to offer for sure, but it's not the end-all of the comic medium.

 

I don't usually stop in at this thread but since I saw Scrooge was posting I figured it would be something thoughtful. And it was:

 

The super-hero genre has a lot to offer for sure, but it's not the end-all of the comic medium.

[goldust40]

Of course, Bob's "blip" comment reflects either a poor explanation of his position or a blind-spot and I can't subscribe to that opinion. My opinion is that super-hero as a genre is really very much a North-American-specific phenomenon on the whole. I'll admit that it's a personal pet-peeve that most ignore the fact that super-heroes are not driving the comic market in Europe, Asia or South America. The super-hero genre has a lot to offer for sure, but it's not the end-all of the comic medium.

 

I can't figure out Bob's "blip" comment either - surely a large if not major proportion of his back issue sales must be super-hero comics - they're surely his bread and butter.

 

I entirely agree that it's an ethnocentric or culture-centric trait that North Americans (and Brits) have regarding super-hero dominance in comics. The medium in the rest of Europe, South America and Asia is certainly more diverse and not equated with this genre. However there are large amounts of collectors in western Europe and South America who prefer and avidly collect the American version. Plus super-hero films are generally as important in terms of sales to U.S. studios in those two continents (and Asia).

 

On the other hand the annual comics festival (which is bigger than San Diego, folks) in Angouleme features hardly any U.S. material (there's so much great domestic stuff out there that it's marginalised, and it is obviously a Eurocentric show).

 

I'd say globally super-hero comics are not a mere blip, but they're not a dominating force, either.

[ciorac]

Saying superhero comics are a "blip" on the comics timeline is asinine. Plain and simple.

 

How about: superhero comics are a large "blip" in the global comics timeline? Is it still as asinine?

 

Although obviously not dominant on a global level for various reasons, super-hero comics can scarcely be called a "blip" simply because of the longevity of the genre, and the familiarity of the major characters, regardless of sales, throughout the world.

 

Comic shops, especially in bigger cities, need diversification in order to survive, hence the focus on merchandise, toys and ancillary products at the front of stores. However the super-hero genre still dominates the new comic racks, and has done since the beginning of the DM proper. Take the heroes out of the equation and you lose a huge proportion of your readership. Wouldn't call that a blip on the domestic level, either...

 

excellent points goldust. Having owned two comic stores I completely concur. However, in my market, and many of the others I have shopped in, even the ancillary products and toys were heavily slanted towards superheoes. Not in all cases, but certainly their presence is felt worldwide. I've shopped in comic stores in Paris, London, Dublin and Amsterdam...the only store I went into that wasn't mostly superhero merchandise was the one in Amsterdam. His selection was truly esoteric. I also noticed a large sci-fi focus in Paris, but plenty of superhero merchandise was on hand.

 

As evidenced by this picture I took of the storefront window of a comic shop in Paris.

 

 

Certainly comics have continued to evolve as has their readership, my comments were more geared towards the historic siginficance of the superhero genre. I bristle and question anyone's attempts to state that they are a "blip" or insignificant in the proliferation of the medium as a whole. I think such a position is indefensible.

[Scrooge]

I'd say globally super-hero comics are not a mere blip, but they're not a dominating force, either.

 

Andy, it's exactly my sentiment summed up succinctly.

 

For bluechip - I can't deny that Hollywood has successfully exported the super-hero concept but let's face it, even domestically, it has not translated into a new Golden Age of Comic Retailing! I would ascribe the resurgence in comics sales to a recent patch of very competent story-telling in the monthlies more so than a feedback from the screen franchises and successes.

 

For ciorac - yes, there is a market for american comics, either local re-distribution of US material or international distribution of the US product itself as evidence by the photo you show. Yet, that's only a single show-case that I fear you're mis-representing. That store front is that of a specialized store in US comics, not a typical comic-store as most in France would understand it. It's not because I can post a picture of a tree from the Pand-handle of Texas that there are entire forests over there. The majority of comic sales in France come from either regular book-stores or grocery stores and for heck I'm sure that there is no US material there.

[BLBcomics-migration]

we ain't a debating not having them, that would be dumb not to carry a full line of everything comics, in my mind, rather, if this "dominant" genre is all a comic book store carried, it would be bankrupt with the quickness

 

Bill, there be life after super hero

 

There be life before and after superhero to be sure. I collect more than just superheroes, I am just continually astonished by how you keep trying to minimize their importance in the history of comics. Isn't it possible to make us aware of how important the non-hero stuff was without diminishing the hero stuff? Why does it always have to be a comparison, a skewed one at that, when it comes to these types of discussions with you?

 

Saying superhero comics are a "blip" on the comics timeline is asinine. Plain and simple.

 

Cuz, Bill, it appears like you feel a need to bump up against just about everything i write here, so i take it in stride, many grains of salt thrown along the way. Maybe i am wrong on that, but that is what it appears like to me on this and other threads. I take it these days that you have had a couple drinks, and simply wail against what ever i choose to present here.

 

I have wrote innumerable times that super heroes are important - you choose to add in thought patterns i have not uttered. Yes, to me, 1938 thru 1946, the hey-hey-day of these men (and a few women) of mystery also known as super heroes, when taken against the time line i work with in the evolution of the American comic book, is a blip.

 

Twas not discussing the Second Heroic Age of Super Heroes - you added that time line into the mix, which is OK. But i also would not say that super heroes have been totally "dominant" the last 40-45 years over all other forms of comic books.

 

Just the facts, kind rainbow brother, just the facts.

 

Are they important? well, i will repeat myself once again, as i have stated many times on this thread, if you chose to read thru every thing i have written here, that super heroes have been important.

 

To think super heroes are/were/have been the most important aspect of comic books is, what you say?, asinine

[BLBcomics-migration]

[Well, I was simply trying to add a little international perspective to the discussion. On the boards, and for perfectly understandable reasons I must concede, the focus is on US comics; yet, I know countless people, all avid comic readers, whose superhero exposure is limited and certainly not likely to expand. I would say there are most likely to have read Frank Miller's Sin City, Buscema's or Alcala's Conan, Pinis's ElfQuest, the Mad parodies, ... but they know very little about super-heroes and are unlikely to pick up any books from that genre.

 

Of course, Bob's "blip" comment reflects either a poor explanation of his position or a blind-spot and I can't subscribe to that opinion. My opinion is that super-hero as a genre is really very much a North-American-specific phenomenon on the whole. I'll admit that it's a personal pet-peeve that most ignore the fact that super-heroes are not driving the comic market in Europe, Asia or South America. The super-hero genre has a lot to offer for sure, but it's not the end-all of the comic medium.

 

I would subscribe more so to your "poor explanation" scenario rather than a blind spot. I allocate only so much time per day to respond in these threads - typing away, not fully fleshing out every nuance, so a guy like Bill sees a small opening and lunges for what he thinks is the kill, making assumptions rather than asking a query or two of expanding any given path in the discussion. But that be my opine, and i could very easily be wrong, once he explains himself, or i explain myself fuller.

 

Your opine re super hero concepts being a North American phenom is right on. I attend comicons over in Europe going to Angouleme in France, with a quarter million people coming over 5 days, the largest comicon in the world, and super heroes are definitely a blip in that show.

 

Same with the comicons i have gone to in Rome and Lucca, Italy - super heroes are there, but they surely do not run the wagons there either.

 

What many USA-centric collectors get stuck in is simple Nationalism, blind to their pet blip in the comics field, in this country now over 160 years young.

[BLBcomics-migration]

I can't figure out Bob's "blip" comment either - surely a large if not major proportion of his back issue sales must be super-hero comics - they're surely his bread and butter.

 

I entirely agree that it's an ethnocentric or culture-centric trait that North Americans (and Brits) have regarding super-hero dominance in comics. The medium in the rest of Europe, South America and Asia is certainly more diverse and not equated with this genre. However there are large amounts of collectors in western Europe and South America who prefer and avidly collect the American version. Plus super-hero films are generally as important in terms of sales to U.S. studios in those two continents (and Asia).

 

On the other hand the annual comics festival (which is bigger than San Diego, folks) in Angouleme features hardly any U.S. material (there's so much great domestic stuff out there that it's marginalised, and it is obviously a Eurocentric show).

 

I'd say globally super-hero comics are not a mere blip, but they're not a dominating force, either.

 

My use of the word blip was thinking in the 1940s & 1950s in America. They came in like gangbusters beginning in 1938 and were mostly on their way out as World War Two ended. An 8 year blip

 

From the late 40s until 1960 or so, there were obviously very few super heroes running in the comic book game in America. That is a fact.

 

Then there was a revival, which many of us participated in as consumers, readers, if you like

 

That went on building into a glut brought on by the Batman TV show, and by 1968, a lot of the non DC and Marvel super heroes went away.

 

In the 1970s, the horror/mystery/fantasy comic books sold very well. Conan was king in the stores i was involved with for a long time

 

Super heroes became rulers of the USA roost again about the time Byrne came into the Xmen and the DM began growing, the ID distribution system for comic books waned, and The Dark Knight Returned

 

Have i stated super heroes are irrelevant?

 

Heck no - that was a thought pattern introduced by some one else, not me

 

Super heroes have been important, i will say it again

 

But are they the Most Important?

 

H E L L no

[BLBcomics-migration]

[As evidenced by this picture I took of the storefront window of a comic shop in Paris.

 

 

Certainly comics have continued to evolve as has their readership, my comments were more geared towards the historic siginficance of the superhero genre. I bristle and question anyone's attempts to state that they are a "blip" or insignificant in the proliferation of the medium as a whole. I think such a position is indefensible.

 

That pic is one of more than a dozen comics shops in a few block radius around Saint Germaine street in Paris, and i have been in all of them, and hit all of them every time i come into Paris on my way to Angouleme. There is ONE comic shop in that mix that focuses on American imports of super hero stuff.

 

When i used the word blip, it was in reference to 1938-1947, when the first super hero blip occurred - and the USA comics market then exploded in an orgy of other genres: romance, horror, sci fi, war, western, especially anthropomorphic among other genres, as TV began to make inroads in American entertainment concepts.

 

No where did i state super heroes are insignificant - and i "bristle" when some one else says i said something i did not say

[BLBcomics-migration]

I'd say globally super-hero comics are not a mere blip, but they're not a dominating force, either.

 

Andy, it's exactly my sentiment summed up succinctly.

 

For bluechip - I can't deny that Hollywood has successfully exported the super-hero concept but let's face it, even domestically, it has not translated into a new Golden Age of Comic Retailing! I would ascribe the resurgence in comics sales to a recent patch of very competent story-telling in the monthlies more so than a feedback from the screen franchises and successes.

 

For ciorac - yes, there is a market for american comics, either local re-distribution of US material or international distribution of the US product itself as evidence by the photo you show. Yet, that's only a single show-case that I fear you're mis-representing. That store front is that of a specialized store in US comics, not a typical comic-store as most in France would understand it. It's not because I can post a picture of a tree from the Pand-handle of Texas that there are entire forests over there. The majority of comic sales in France come from either regular book-stores or grocery stores and for heck I'm sure that there is no US material there.

 

Thanks for bringing some more clarity into this discussion. For me, i love super hero stories of a great many myriad variety. Super heroes are not the main aspect of my comics wagon i pull along thru life.

 

The super hero movie phenom in America recently since Batman 1989 has unfortunately not led to a huge resurgent increase in comic book net sales. An unfortunate fact.

 

I wish it were otherwise,

[goldust40]

Have i stated super heroes are irrelevant?

 

Heck no - that was a thought pattern introduced by some one else, not me

 

Super heroes have been important, i will say it again

 

But are they the Most Important?

 

H E L L no

 

Well, Bob, you did come up with this reductivist soundbite....

 

What many USA-centric collectors get stuck in is simple Nationalism, blind to their pet blip in the comics field, in this country now over 160 years young.

 

Yes, in the second quote you were discussing super-heroes' global profile, which as I said in my previous thread is not a blip due to Hollywood, the popularity of certain iconic branded characters in other continents, super-hero comics being translated into most other languages etc.

 

Bob, all the potted histories and references to middlebrow, wide-ranging, (yet very Eurocentric)events like Angouleme and Lucca only serve to belittle a genre that like it or not dominates the domestic market, and has done, despite the asserted presence of good old Conan and mystery comics in the 1970s (nice try, but super-hero comics were still number one in this decade, despite across-the-board declining sales), for over forty years.

 

People in South America, Europe and Asia may have their own excellent homegrown comics that completely and utterly dominate their respective domestic marketplaces, but with the possible exception of Tintin and Asterix the only characters that will be familiar to all of them will be U.S. super-heroes. Period.

 

And I don't need to inform you as to the dominant genre in the U.S. back - issue marketplace.

 

Please note that I have never actually said in any of my posts that super-hero is the most important genre, or even particularly high profile. On a global level. But globally they are important to an extent which exceeds the word "blip".

 

As for domestically, are they the most important?

 

HELL YEAH!!!!!!!!!!

[BLBcomics-migration]

Some times the quick reply button makes one appear to be responding to one specific person, or one may be responding to several posts at once, and in that aspect of this CGC thread apparatus, i sometimes do not know who i am replying to per se, so let's all get hung up on the word blip

 

My original use of the word blip was thinking in terms of the 9 year period 1938-1947

 

Now it has gotten convoluted because Bill P got his sensibilities all bent out of shape, but that is his own internal view points not seeing the forest for the trees therein

 

I sell a lot of non super hero comic book material - and the non-spandex stuff i turn over might very well be more dollars than the super hero stuff i sell.

 

The high grade super hero stuff i find trouble competing with the deeper pockets people re buying as the prices have entered the stratosphere as of late, so i do not even try to compete any more, finding niches of material with which to make my living.

 

And there are plenty of them there niches involving all kinds of material i like, especially working my stock based off the creators involved with any given book, rather than just character-driven.

 

I have plenty of super hero comic books, always have had, but i also push and get good results from all the other genres than what some perceive here as "dominant"

 

In comic book stores these days, super hero "stuff" sells well, but i would say that the actual comic book aspect is not so important, not like it once was - new stuff being the subject in this line

 

Me, i sell a lot of Peanuts stuff, Dennis the Menace, romance, war, jungle, horror, and strive to stock artists i like such as Wood, Wolverton, LB & Jack Cole, Kirby, Kubert, Ditko, Severin, Crandall, Crumb, Corben, Griffin, Holmes, and maybe a thousand others.

 

Many guys here inside the CGC mind-set look upon the super hero as the most important comics material ever done - that just isn't so out in the "real" world

 

That said, i love super heroes