Stocks vs. Comics

[Bronty]

That's not correct re: the Cdn rules. Listed personal property is deemed to have a cost base of the greater of $1000 and the actual cost, and the proceeds are deemed to be the greater of $1000 or the actual proceeds. So under $1000, cost = proceeds = no gain.

 

Long story short for LPP in Canada you only have a duty to report gains on items that sell for over $1000 cdn.

[greggy]

That's not correct re: the Cdn rules. Listed personal property is deemed to have a cost base of the greater of $1000 and the actual cost and the proceeds are deemed to be the greater of $1000 or the actual proceeds. So under $1000, cost = proceeds = no gain.

 

Long story short for LPP in Canada you only have a duty to report gains on items that sell for over $1000 cdn.

Yeah...but like my audit co-workers have mentioned, they have NEVER seen anyone actually report any gains in their career. Not that others haven't but it's very hard to enforce!

[Bronty]

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[greggy]

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[Bronty]

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[lou_fine]

Try cashing a cheque from Heritage for any amount greater than $25,000 USA and you better pray that it doesn't flagged by the bank or spotted by the IRS or Revenue Canada.

 

This is out of my realm of expertise, but I thought the magic number was $10,000?

 

 

POV;

 

Actually, I believe you guys are right about the $10K figure.

 

Most collectors I know ensure that cheques are under $10K and made payable to different names (usually family members). Buyers are usually more than willing to do this because they "understand" what's going on AND more than happy to accomodate you in order to get the book. Not that I've done this recently, but I don't think larger companies such as Heritage or Sotheby's will be willing to do this for you.

[joe_collector]

Collectibles investment is a lot like Vegas, the small percentage of winners are promoted, while ignoring the huddled masses walking out the door, penniless.

 

We hear tales of Chuck finding the Church books, someone in the 1970's or 80's buying a Pedigree at low prices, or those lucky individuals who had HG collections fall into their laps, and are now reaping the benefits of their good fortune.

 

But we ignore the vast majority of "collectibles investors" who have not had such good fortune. No one hears about the poor saps who laid down big bucks in the 90's for restored books, only to see their money lose 90% of its value. We don't hear about the guys who lost houses during other speculative periods, or the long-term VG-VF collections that have actually decreased in value when inflation is taken into account.

 

Better yet are the "Overstreet What If Acolytes" who take out old 1992 Guide, check the $6K price on a NM Amazing Fantasy 15, and play "what if I ...." while ignoring the fact that true NM copies were selling at $30-$50K at that time, and that the mass market investor was loading up on Valiant and Death of Superman comics.

 

Collectibles naturally promote the infintesimal number of people who have had the luck, timing and acumen to actually make a huge profit in this zany business, but that doesn't even scratch the whole story.

[blazingbob]

Well, I think if one has strong feelings that the value of books will do nothing but go down should set up a system where they can write "puts" on those books.

 

Let's set up a Options market where values of CGC books fluctuate. We can then start new threads about the put/call ratio on the top 100 books. Those believing the CGC market will go higher can trade those calls, those who feel that they will go down can trade the puts. Lets start the CGC basket 100 and trade it as a index.

 

MMMMMMMMMMM, $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

[delekkerste]

My biggest problem with the stock market is a number of things. No matter how much you know, invest or research you still won't have all the knowledge about a company unless you work for it or work in the securities field.

 

Hey, I'm the last person that's going to tell you that it's easy making money in the stock market. Most investment bankers I know don't know the first thing about how to invest their own money and even most people I know who work in investment management are perma-bull one-trick ponies who have benefited from the fact that the market has pretty much gone straight up since 1980, with the exception of a handful of years.

 

However, I think people are unduly scared off by the perceived uncertainties and complexities of the stock market when, in fact, the average Joe has a much better chance of beating the pros (the same clueless people I mentioned above) than in just about any other profession. Yeah, it's going to take a lot of study, research and hard knocks to get up to speed, but if people spent half the time they currently spend trying to make money in comics, I think they could do it.

 

"Investing" in comics is a much more seductive alternative because you can rationalize it twenty ways to Tuesday. If something goes down in value, well, hey, it wasn't really an investment, I just bought it for the sheer joy of it. Or hey, I've been collecting for 5, 10, 20, 30 years...surely I must know and be able to game the comic market better than the stock market (when, of course, every guy on this Board is thinking the exact same thing - are we all Lake Wobegon kids, all statistically impossibly "above average" in our ability to systematically outsmart our fellow collectors? )

 

To be continued...

[blazingbob]

I wish it was "hard" to make money, or I felt that I had a good shot at winning. However, no matter how much I read, learn, attend seminars, trust a broker, buy a fund, know what the company makes yet I am hit with the following. I spent days researching, learning yet I was always sideswiped with something I didn't see coming. Those unknowns, the inside knowledge that what you are reading isn't what's really going on.

 

Stock Downgrades - One company gets downgraded, it takes the rest with them.

Analyst downgrades from a Strong buy to a Buy, sector drops 5-8% that day.

 

Emotional waves of irrational PE's - Ok, I know that computer chips are great, I can figure out how much they cost to make if I read the prospectus. But hey, how many companies, do they make the right chips? Communication chips, programmable chips, integrated specialized chips, Intel vs AMD, Xilinx vs Altera?

 

Buy the rumor, Sell the news.

 

What exactly are "good earnings". A company hits the number, however at the analyst's meeting that I'm not at the company "let's the boy's know" that next year's guidance will be lower. Run for the hills and guess who's out in front trading, I'm finding out around 11:00 watching the clicks downward wondering what the hell is going on.

 

Reuters wire services - Ok, How many of those Analyst market reports are worth anything. Jack Grubman turned out to be a crook yet he moved stocks. Blodget is now back to being a reporter again yet .com's made him millions and again he moved stocks.

 

 

[Aman619]

I dunno.... how am I to evaluate investment advice from a guy who paid real money for ALL 21 pages of a GIJoe comic from the Modern age drawn by a low name-recognition artist? Doesnt add up right. Sorry.

 

I am appreciateive that you came right out and verified what I had suspected about most brokers and investment advisors. Thank you for that.

 

And Ive been buying keys and high(er) grade comics for 15 or so years, and while I havent sold anything, I HAVE made good money on my "investments"... albeit on paper so far, so short of the CRASH to end all crashes, I'll be able to get out at a decent profit (so long as I watch my shorts when dealing with dealers!)

[Aman619]

This is not a slam on stocks.

 

My biggest problem with the stock market is a number of things.

 

No matter how much you know, invest or research you still won't have all the knowledge about a company unless you work for it or work in the securities field. Just like comic dealers you (Gene) know the inner workings of the securities industry, the IPO game, Mergers and Acquisitions, who underwrites the bonds for these companies, arbitrage, spreads, P/E, book value, commidities, etc.

 

And you Gene worked in the industry, you were an investment banker, therefore you probably know more about the market than most. And if you can sit in front of me and tell me with a straight face that market manipulation or pumps and dumps by sales forces doesn't happen than I'm Donald Duck. Currency trading and precious metal trading, I think you pretty much left most of us behind on that one. With the typical comic budget dare say can many afford that $400 ounce of gold. Better yet, I think Silver is a good investment, I hear the Hunts are dead so market manipulation is a thing of the past. I work in the Telecommunication's field, I work for Verizon, I work in Billing, I hear what's going on and for years we had our butts handed to us by Worldcom, Quest and Global Crossing. For years the "Darlings of Wall Street". Gee, let's see. Cooked books, sold access lines to itself and now out of business. Did I see it coming? How did they get away with it?

 

I buy and sell high grade comics. I try to buy them for a fair price and sell them based on what I know. And I will dare say that I am extremely knowledgeable about what I am buying and selling. Does everything go up, no. Have I made a very nice return on my investment, yes. Will a person buying today get the same returns I did, not likely.

 

If you are the person you claim to be instead of the person I cannot believe wrote the below post feel free to post on a weekly basis how to invest your money.

Specifics - Stocks to buy, funds or metals, how to do it. Share the knowledge on how to make real money versus wishing our comic books lower.

 

Hear Hear!!

O Great Blazing One Makes Great Sense!

I especially admire your honesty in that line I 'bolded' ... but shhhhh, some of your customers who are buying these books may be up this late and read it!!!

[joe_collector]

IAnd Ive been buying keys and high(er) grade comics for 15 or so years, and while I havent sold anything, I HAVE made good money on my "investments"... albeit on paper so far

 

That's really a major point in any market correction; a lot of people with money "on paper", then the demographics shift and everyone looks to cash the holdings... watch out!

 

We will see a market correction in the very near future, but that's nothing compared to when the Boomers all take off to Florida and divest themselves of extraneous items.

[Aman619]

hey dont be a Boomer hater!!

[joe_collector]

hey dont be a Boomer hater!!

 

I'm not, but they have the greatest economic clout ever, and represent many of the deepest pocketed collectibles buyers in the world.

 

When these people flit off to retire, I don't want to be the one holding a pile of valuable books and counting their "paper value".

[delekkerste]

(continued from post above)

 

currency trading and precious metal trading, I think you pretty much left most of us behind on that one. With the typical comic budget dare say can many afford that $400 ounce of gold.

 

Well, you can start investing in most mutual funds for $1,000 or $2,500 or start systematic investment plans for as little as 1/10th of that amount. There are exchange-traded funds, closed-end mutual funds, sector mutual funds...it doesn't take much to start investing in the market. Want to bet against the dollar? Buy 100 shares of the Templeton Global Income Fund (NYSE: GIM). It'll set you back a little over $900. Want to invest in gold? 100 shares of the Central Fund of Canada will set you back less than $550. When I see people plunking down more than double that for Marvel Premiere #15s or Marvel Spotlight #5s, you can't tell me people can't afford to invest in traditional investment classes.

 

There have been some polls on these Boards in the past asking people how valuable their comic collections are. I don't know if people are full of it or not, but I recall there being a lot of multiple 5-figure collections and even 6-figure collections out there.

 

 

Have I made a very nice return on my investment, yes. Will a person buying today get the same returns I did, not likely.

 

Well, I would argue that you did not "invest". You are not a comic "investor". You are a comic *dealer*. You buy low and sell high or buy high and sell higher. That it is comics you are buying & selling is incidental. You are a *merchant*. The fact that you have made money speaks to me that you are a good businessman and dealer who has also benefitted from the fact that the value of your inventory has historically appreciated over time (however, comics haven't been traded as a serious collectible class long enough to assume they will always go up in the long-run).

 

Meanwhile, the people you are selling to are not ruthlessly and efficiently turning over their inventory in the pursuit of profit (except maybe Gman ); by and large, they are buying and holding. A person buying at today's prices is not likely to enjoy great returns. Even a person trying to become a dealer will likely be too handicapped having to stock inventory at today's high prices and dealing with a more efficient market (due to eBay, GPA, CGC, etc.) to match your historical dealer returns, even if they are talented businesspeople.

 

 

feel free to post on a weekly basis how to invest your money.

Specifics - Stocks to buy, funds or metals, how to do it. Share the knowledge on how to make real money versus wishing our comic books lower.

 

What I personally wish is irrelevant. Comic prices will do whatever they're going to do, and I believe that with psychology so one-sidingly bullish after a parabolic advance that at some point comics are going to start earning low or negative returns as has every other asset class that has enjoyed a similar run. Whether that happens now or 5 years from now, no one can say for sure, though with some of the goofy prices being paid, one might suspect that it will happen sooner rather than later. I know you know more about the comic biz than most, certainly more than I, but in the end, will your knowledge of the last 30 years of the comic book hobby (pretty much the whole history of the class as a serious collectible) be enough to overcome 5000 years of recorded history of human folly?

 

As for doling out investment advice, I'm sure the NASD would have something to say about my recommending what specifically to buy and sell (not that I would want that responsibility anyway). All I'm going to say is that clearly some people are seduced by the comfy feeling they get from the concept of making money from something they love to do anyway, not recognizing the risks involved as prices have soared exponentially since 1990 (it's totally irrelevant to talk about making money in comics in the past - the trick is to do it before a NM AF 15 soars 200-fold from $600 to $120K, not after. If this is not obvious to anyone reading this, please grab some Kleenex, because you are a drooling fanboy, not an intelligent investor).

 

Also, it is clear from some of the posts on the Boards that some people have all but forsaken traditional investments for comics, which I think is incredibly foolish. I'm *absolutely not* saying that one should buy and hold the broad stock market, because I think that will prove to be a losing strategy too, but I would recommend doing your homework and trying to figure out what might have a better chance of working. As I start, may I recommend Dr. Marc Faber's wonderful book "Tomorrow's Gold". Not the most exciting tome I have ever read, but packed with insight and wisdom on how to identify booms and busts before they happen.

 

Gene

[delekkerste]

I dunno.... how am I to evaluate investment advice from a guy who paid real money for ALL 21 pages of a GIJoe comic from the Modern age drawn by a low name-recognition artist? Doesnt add up right. Sorry.

 

The way you should evaluate investment advice from that guy is to recognize that I did not buy this art for investment purposes and that I did not bat an eyelash immediately wiring over a sizable figure to Metropolis having enjoyed one of the best years I have ever had investing in the markets. That's how you should evaluate my advice.

 

Furthermore, if you think the value of this artwork is derived solely from the fact that it was Larry Hama who drew it, you are sorely mistaken. It was sold to me for what I felt was a fair price allowing for price appreciation and was sold at what the seller and I both agreed was a substantial discount to its break-up value. If I was a mercenary who didn't care about keeping the book whole (as it should be kept), I could easily make a hefty profit by selling the pages off individually.

 

Gene

[Aman619]

Furthermore, if you think the value of this artwork is derived solely from the fact that it was Larry Hama who drew it, you are sorely mistaken.

 

It was sold to me for what I felt was a fair price allowing for price appreciation and was sold at what the seller and I both agreed was a substantial discount to its break-up value.

Gene

 

I dont see how the second statement follows from the idea in the first sentence... and any future value these pages hold rests solely on the future reputation and value of Larry Hama's artwork... except to all the other GIJoe full-story original art collectors. Lets see a show of jhands on who here was disappointed that you snagged this coup.

 

"break-up value"?? ARE there 20 other Larry Hama GIJoe original art page collectors?

 

Sorry to be busting your chops, Gene, I like what you write about and often am moved by your predictions to almost pick up the phone and sell it all to Metro, or Blazing..... but then again, I'm only buying cause I LOVE comics! Its not an investment at all! Im happy for you for having bought these pages at what you and the seller agreed was a 'fair' price. Theres that other guy who bought the 4 long boxes for a similar 5 figure price tag who's very happy with HIS purchase too.

[Illiterati-migration]

Furthermore, if you think the value of this artwork is derived solely from the fact that it was Larry Hama who drew it, you are sorely mistaken.

 

It was sold to me for what I felt was a fair price allowing for price appreciation and was sold at what the seller and I both agreed was a substantial discount to its break-up value.

Gene

 

I dont see how the second statement follows from the idea in the first sentence... and any future value these pages hold rests solely on the future reputation and value of Larry Hama's artwork... except to all the other GIJoe full-story original art collectors. Lets see a show of jhands on who here was disappointed that you snagged this coup.

 

"break-up value"?? ARE there 20 other Larry Hama GIJoe original art page collectors?

 

Sorry to be busting your chops, Gene, I like what you write about and often am moved by your predictions to almost pick up the phone and sell it all to Metro, or Blazing..... but then again, I'm only buying cause I LOVE comics! Its not an investment at all! Im happy for you for having bought these pages at what you and the seller agreed was a 'fair' price. Theres that other guy who bought the 4 long boxes for a similar 5 figure price tag who's very happy with HIS purchase too.

 

There are PLENTY of GI Joe freaks out there. It's best to have some idea what you're talking about before you go shooting your mouth off. GI Joe collectors will pay extremely good money for art from so famous an issue. (It IS #21, right Balki?)

[Aman619]

Furthermore, if you think the value of this artwork is derived solely from the fact that it was Larry Hama who drew it, you are sorely mistaken.

 

It was sold to me for what I felt was a fair price allowing for price appreciation and was sold at what the seller and I both agreed was a substantial discount to its break-up value.

Gene

 

I dont see how the second statement follows from the idea in the first sentence... and any future value these pages hold rests solely on the future reputation and value of Larry Hama's artwork... except to all the other GIJoe full-story original art collectors. Lets see a show of jhands on who here was disappointed that you snagged this coup.

 

"break-up value"?? ARE there 20 other Larry Hama GIJoe original art page collectors?

 

Sorry to be busting your chops, Gene, I like what you write about and often am moved by your predictions to almost pick up the phone and sell it all to Metro, or Blazing..... but then again, I'm only buying cause I LOVE comics! Its not an investment at all! Im happy for you for having bought these pages at what you and the seller agreed was a 'fair' price. Theres that other guy who bought the 4 long boxes for a similar 5 figure price tag who's very happy with HIS purchase too.

 

There are PLENTY of GI Joe freaks out there. It's best to have some idea what you're talking about before you go shooting your mouth off. GI Joe collectors will pay extremely good money for art from so famous an issue. (It IS #21, right Balki?)

 

Seriously?????