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What book ENDED the Bronze Age of Comics????

Started by valiantman,

50 posts in this topic

Kevin Boyd

Kevin Boyd

Posted
Posted

I don't think there is.... it would be somewhat subjective.

 

There have been books that review the entire history of superhero comics - like Jones and Jacob's The Comic Book Heroes which break things done into segments. Chapters tend to be "here's what DC was doing" followed by "here's what Marvel was doing" followed by "here's what everyone else was doing" and then back around to DC again. It's a good read though.

 

Kev

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Kevin Boyd

Kevin Boyd

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Well I personally think Dazzler is still a part of Bronze. Direct market selling was an external factor not a story device and Dazzler herself was not a unique or trend-setting character (trend-following is more like it).

 

Kev

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Warlord

Warlord

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murph0 writes:

No I'm pretty sure Dazzler was Wayne, but I don't follow DC so who knows.

 

What? Are you contradicting me? Oh, you are? OK, I can buy that.

 

However, you are also contradicting Mr. Silver Age. In CBG #1497 he wrote a "When Was The Bronze Age?" article and cites that Superboy #1 was first - in 1980. "It was the first comic book distributed solely to comics shops through the direct market and not via the newstands." He states that Dazzler #1 followed in March 1981, and it was the "first direct-only, all original comic book". I didn't think to note that the Superboy #1 was mostly reprints.

 

True, he is Mr Silver Age and he was writing about the Bronze Age... so maybe he was a little outta his element. But I'm going with him on this one. smile.gif

 

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murph0

murph0

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Who is Mr Silver Age? I don't follow these discussions about age's as I think it's about as interesting as learning about different ages of man. So in other words, not interesting at all tongue.gif

 

Brian

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ArnoldTBlumberg

ArnoldTBlumberg

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There's been a timeline in multiple places in the Overstreet Guide, as part of the Hall of Fame, as a chronology to itself and in several other articles throughout the book, for about as long as the Guide has existed. Long before I worked on the book, I always took it as a reference for all that kind of info and much if not all of it seemed to be the consensus of the hobby for many years. It's only recently that I've noticed tons of debates about the assigning of dates or specific issues to the beginning or ending of various Ages. To me it was always the way it was laid down in the Overstreet Guide.

 

Of course, seeing it from the other side now, I like the idea of refining it further, getting more feedback and trying to make it more reflective of what we all seem to think works best now. That's why we're soliciting feedback on the Ages between now and the next Guide, when we plan to reveal what everyone thought of our proposed extension beyond the Bronze Age into Ages that further define roughly the '80s and '90s.

 

 

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Kevin Boyd

Kevin Boyd

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I decided to review my copy of The Comic Book Heroes and I found it particularly interesting to see that Jones and Jacobs decided to divide superhero comics published between 1956 and 1997 into three distinct ages.

 

THE SILVER AGE 1956-1969

 

- Shaped more or less by Schwartz at DC and Lee/Kirby at Marvel.

- Begins with Schwarz reinventing the Flash in 1956

Lee and Kirby create the FF.

- Ends with Kirby leaving the FF (and Marvel) for DC and Schwartz hands over the reins of Green Lantern to Denny O'Neil.

- Plus Marvel is now outselling DC for the first time.

 

THE AWKWARD AGE 1970-1980

 

- Comics lose direction as heroes and their worlds are redefined and sales are declining in old arenas, flourishing in new ones.

- Triple-threat - October 1970:

(1) Social relevance - GL/GA 76

(2) Barbarism - Conan the Barbarian 1

(3) Kirby at DC - Superman's Pal, Jimmy Olson 133

- Ends with the Death of Phoenix Uncanny X-Men 137

 

THE GILDED AGE 1980-1997

 

- New Teen Titans 1 heralds a change in attitude and management style at DC that would sweep through the line and make room for a resurgence of creativity at DC

- The (Disco) Dazzler 1 breaks sales records (really just a footnote) for Marvel. X-Men are the top dogs - each successive spin-off is a success story.

 

- Comic book shops and the direct market change the face of comics, supporting darker, more mature noir-style comics like:

Master of Kung Fu by Gulacy and Moench

Moon Knight by Sienkiewicz and Moench

but especially Daredevil by Miller and Mackenzie (particularly with the arrival of Elektra in #168 - Miller has taken over)

 

- Independant 'boom' revives old genres and creates new superstars:

Eclipse Magazine

Capital (Nexus)

Pacific (Kirby launches Captain Victory)

Fantagraphics (Love and Rockets)

 

- Ends with the industry in sales freefall in 1996, weird changes in the leadership structures of DC (group editors) and Marvel (Marvelution).

 

- In the books themselves a new focus (almost as a backlash to the grim'n'gritty anti-heroes of the last 25 years) on more altruistic silver-age like heroes (Marvels, Flash, Astro City) and the publication of Kingdom Come. The comics industry is in disarray.

 

Which leads us to 1997. What next? Did Marvel Knights signal the beginning of a new era?

 

I can respect these definitions. I agree 100% on Bronze's start (what they call Awkward). Was 1980 truly the start of something new? Can we define 1980-1996? as the Copper (or Gilded as they call it) Age?

 

Kev

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Zonker

Zonker

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Posted

Arnold...

IMHO this would represent much closer to a consensus of fandom as a starting point than what was published in the 2003 Overstreet. In particular, starting Bronze with the Death of Gwen Stacy is way too late. If anyone wants to argue ASM 121 is the "defining moment" of the Bronze Age, be my guest. Likewise, I'd be fine with anyone who said Amazing Fantasy #15 was the most significant Silver Age book. But in neither case were these the first books of their respective Ages.

 

Not sure if your "Copper Age" label will stick, but I've edited it into the quote below just for consistency with the Overstreet starting point.

 

BTW... has Gemstone gotten much feedback on the proposal yet?

 

Thanks,

Z.

 

 

THE SILVER AGE 1956-1969

 

- Shaped more or less by Schwartz at DC and Lee/Kirby at Marvel.

- Begins with Schwarz reinventing the Flash in 1956

Lee and Kirby create the FF.

- Ends with Kirby leaving the FF (and Marvel) for DC and Schwartz hands over the reins of Green Lantern to Denny O'Neil.

- Plus Marvel is now outselling DC for the first time.

 

THE BRONZE AGE 1970-1980

 

- Comics lose direction as heroes and their worlds are redefined and sales are declining in old arenas, flourishing in new ones.

- Triple-threat - October 1970:

(1) Social relevance - GL/GA 76

(2) Barbarism - Conan the Barbarian 1

(3) Kirby at DC - Superman's Pal, Jimmy Olson 133

- Ends with the Death of Phoenix Uncanny X-Men 137

 

THE COPPER AGE 1980-1997

 

- New Teen Titans 1 heralds a change in attitude and management style at DC that would sweep through the line and make room for a resurgence of creativity at DC

- The (Disco) Dazzler 1 breaks sales records (really just a footnote) for Marvel. X-Men are the top dogs - each successive spin-off is a success story.

 

- Comic book shops and the direct market change the face of comics, supporting darker, more mature noir-style comics like:

Master of Kung Fu by Gulacy and Moench

Moon Knight by Sienkiewicz and Moench

but especially Daredevil by Miller and Mackenzie (particularly with the arrival of Elektra in #168 - Miller has taken over)

 

- Independant 'boom' revives old genres and creates new superstars:

Eclipse Magazine

Capital (Nexus)

Pacific (Kirby launches Captain Victory)

Fantagraphics (Love and Rockets)

 

- Ends with the industry in sales freefall in 1996, weird changes in the leadership structures of DC (group editors) and Marvel (Marvelution).

 

- In the books themselves a new focus (almost as a backlash to the grim'n'gritty anti-heroes of the last 25 years) on more altruistic silver-age like heroes (Marvels, Flash, Astro City) and the publication of Kingdom Come. The comics industry is in disarray.

 

 

 

Kev

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ArnoldTBlumberg

ArnoldTBlumberg

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That was drawn for me many years ago by Teri S. Wood of the Wandering Star series. I loved her work and it was fun to have her version of me. I've since had Judd Winick do one (at my website, atbpublishing.com) and I just recently had Mike Oeming draw me too.

 

Just a manifestation of my raging ego smile.gif.

 

Arnold

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ArnoldTBlumberg

ArnoldTBlumberg

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We've gotten quite a few e-mails, and most of them are very long, well-reasoned arguments. Actually, most people tend to agree with each other on starting/ending points with only minor variations. Almost everybody seems to disagree with the Gwen Stacy thing (which was my major contribution, sorry! smile.gif ), but I think I threw that in just to get people talking a lot. I do think it represented a fundamental shift in maturity in comic book storytelling, but most people think that comes way too late, and if the people speak... *shrug*

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Zonker

Zonker

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Of course, seeing it from the other side now, I like the idea of refining it further, getting more feedback and trying to make it more reflective of what we all seem to think works best now. That's why we're soliciting feedback on the Ages between now and the next Guide, when we plan to reveal what everyone thought of our proposed extension beyond the Bronze Age into Ages that further define roughly the '80s and '90s.

 

Hi again Arnold,

 

While we're on the subject, thought I'd bring forward an old thread on the subject. I've edited it below to conform to the "Age" designations (the original intentionally avoided those labels).

 

THE GOLDEN AGE

 

1938-1941 Birth of the superheroes. Most icons introduced here.

 

1942-1945 World War II comics. A high-water mark of comics circulation and cultural awareness (at least among 8-year olds!)

 

1946-1951 Post-War comics. Decline of super-hero sales (but some great art as the 2nd generation creators come on line: Kubert, Infantino, Toth, Wood, Baker) and rise of alternate genres: Crime, Romance, Western. Note: apart from DC, the Golden Age petered out before 1951, but that was the year of the final All-Star Comics issue.

 

THE ATOMIC AGE (overlaps Gold)

1950-1955 New Trend. ECs dominate (at least artistically). Horror comics abound. Crime comics get bloodier.

 

THE SILVER AGE

1956-1961 Post-Code. DCs dominate. Antiseptic stories for kids.

 

1961-1970 First Marvel era. Comics pitched for slightly older audience, but still within the constraints of the Code. DC responds with mixed success (both artistically and commercially).

 

THE BRONZE AGE (slight overlap with Silver)

 

1970-1974 New wave. Comics' first self-conscious literary pretentions. The Academy of Comic Book Arts. GL/GA. Conan. Kirby Fourth World. King Kull. Swamp Thing. Man-Thing. Kaluta's Shadow. Aparo's Spectre. Tomb of Dracula. Manhunter. First Appearances Punisher, Wolverine, Ghost Rider, etc.

 

1975-1985 X-era. Gradual rise of the New X-Men leads to Marvel's utter dominance. Fuels comics shop Direct Sales market, speculation and catering to the fans. DC responds with New Teen Titans, whose success leads DC to entrust the same creative team with Crisis on Infinite Earths. Most non-super-hero genres start to die out. Founding of Pacific Comics begets First, Eclipse, others.

 

 

THE MODERN AGE

1986-1991 Post-crisis era. Comics attempt mainstream acceptance with some success: Watchmen. Dark Knight Returns. Superman re-boot. First multiple-cover gimmicks (Legends of Dark Knight #1). Individual issues duplicate sales figures not seen since the post-War years: Spider-Man #1. X-Men #1.

 

1992-1996 Crash. Death of Superman peaks mainstream comics interest. Speculation-fueling gimmicks. Long sales slide begins. Most "independent" publishers fold up shop. Good quality work still shows up (Sandman, Marvels, Astro City, Kingdom Come), but most of the mainstream monthly books languish (Spider-Man clone saga, Knightfall, Emerald Twilight, Heroes Reborn, post-Reign of the Supermen)

 

THE CONTEMPORARY AGE

1997-2003 Renaissance. Unapologetic super-heroes make a come-back, but with a twist, typified by Morrison's JLA, Ellis' Authority, Millar's Ultimates. Marvel Knights lays the foundation for the New Marvel.

 

Just some thoughts...

Z.

 

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underthebigw

underthebigw

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I have to agree with Lighthouse's idea that the end of one age does not have to coincide with the beginning of another. I've always thought of this being more true for BA/Modern periods than those preceeding them. The only possible answer to the end of the BA has got to be Crisis 1. I wasn't even a big DC fan at the time, and my interest in superhero titles was waning in favor of independent titles, but even I realized that this was a distinct marker that a period of time in comics had passed and that nothing would ever be the same. This was not simply a matter of changing fixed aspects of the Marvel or DC universe, but really DC's attempt at trying to resolve the issue of a fading away of a solid comic-reading demographic. (A problem hinted at by the passing away of other long-time publishers such as Gold Key, Whitman, and Charlton just a few years earlier). I think this continues to be true--both Marvel and DC have repeatedly struggled to re-make their characters in an attempt to find new readership since Crisis and the reality is that none of these have succeeded in bringing back the readership comics in general, and Marvel and DC in particular, had even in the 70's.

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jbud73

jbud73

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A few comments on the observations here. For me I agree with X-Men 137, or 143 ending the age. Crisis is way way too late, it might be one of the most significant aspects of the modern age, but I think by '86 too many of the trends of modern were established, you can argue that they were perfected here, with Crisis and DK Returns though. The start of modern with New Teen Titans #1, people will laugh, but then I think that they have forgotten the power and the influence of this Wolfman/Perez series on the comic collecting universe. Sure it plunged to great depths but it is definitely one of the core series in the era, along the line of Tomb of Dracula, or Werewolf by Night etc epitomize Bronze. This thread was very interesting to me as the end of Bronze beginning of Modern is where I entered the hobby.

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Zonker

Zonker

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Posted

OK, I'll give my own self-contradictory opinions a rest for a while, and just capture some facts (cover dates) of several books noted in this thread so far--

 

May 1979: Daredevil 158- First Miller art

Sep 1980: X-Men 137- Death of Dark Phoenix

Oct 1980: DC Presents 26- first New Teen Titans

Nov 1980: New Teen Titans 1

"1980" : Superboy Spectacular- Direct Sales only 1-shot (anyone know which month?)

Jan 1981: Daredevil 168- First Miller -script; Intro Elektra

Jan 1981: X-Men 141- Days of Future Past launches alternate time line that would form the basis for lots of X-continuity over the next several years

Mar 1981: X-Men 143- Final Claremont/Byrne

Mar 1981: Dazzler 1- First direct-sales-only for an ongoing series

Nov 1981: Captain Vicory 1- First Pacific Comics issue, direct-only publisher

 

893scratchchin-thumb.gif

 

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