The "Review Committee" discussion

[tth2]

Half your list doesn't have much experience with pedigrees, and would porbably be unable to tell one pedigree from another, or from a non-pedigree book.

I don't think any experience with pedigrees is required at all. All you have to be able to do is look at a scan of a book with a pedigree on the label, and then look at a scan of the book without the pedigree on the label, and confirm that it's the same book.

 

That's pretty much it. And it's not like the group will be in charge of the "nuclear football" and the fate of the world will be at stake.

The way people kind of got worked up about the committee, I was starting to wonder.

[skybolt]

I think it's always a concern when a key book doubles in value. This is where educating the public comes into factor, and a majority of collectors are made aware that the difference between an 8.5 and 9.2, or a 9.4 and 9.8 CGC graded copy could be a minor press job or erased dirt away. Maybe if enough people understand the actual process that CGC uses to grade these books, then we won't get these huge price jumps for an insignificant amount of change.

Personally I do find it somewhat confusing.

 

If grading is about communicating condition to another person, and the current Flat-tastic Age of comic collecting keeps evolving, maybe future labels will add a P (potential) afterthought.

 

Like 8.5P2 for one that could potentially jump 2 levels if reconditioned, or 8.5P0 for a deadnuts VF+ with zero potential/or already reconditioned.

Maybe 4.0P9 for one with tuckable paper near a poped staple.

 

I know you are being sarcastic, but this is the best idea Ive read on the Boards in a while. I mean, if we are truly approaching a time in our hobby when improving books through having work done on them is commonplace, encouraged and accepted by collectors and dealers, the next step in professional appraisal/grading is to notate how much potential each book contains.

 

isnt it?

 

You never know exactly how much a dry clean and press will improve a book until you actually try it, and since different restorers use different methods (with different levels of effectiveness), it would be impossible to tell how many grade levels a book would potentially improve from a press job simply by looking at it before treatment. That's not to say that someone couldn't eyeball it and make an educated guess, but there's no way to do it with enough certainty to put a separate number on a slab for it.

 

Which again brings me back to the point that we as collectors need to evolve beyond this current state of the hobby. If a CGC graded book can double in value from $10,000 to $20,000 by erasing a small smudge of dirt and raising the grade by a couple of notches, then something is wrong. I truelly believe that eventually reality will catch up with perception, and people will wake up to the fact that they're shelling out thousands of hard earned dollars for a minor press job or dry cleanning, to raise a book's value 2-fold. This realization will ultimately have a huge impact on the state of the hobby once collectors are informed about what an 8.5 vs. 9.2 CGC graded copy really entails.

 

I mean it's like basically taking an authentic vase, that's in great condition, and rubbing off the dirt to increase its price from $100,000 to $200,000! For instance, if I asked a bunch of high end collectors to step into a room and handed them a nice looking CGC graded 8.0 copy of ASM #1, and said this will cost you $10,000. As they reached for their wallet, I tell them to hold on a second. I grab the book, erase a few dirt smudges and apply some minor pressing in front of everyone. I then grab the book and hand it over to a CGC grader. Since they have to go through the proper protocol and grade the book in front of them, they hand the book back to me with a 9.0 grade. I then turn around to the same potential buyer and say the book will now cost you $30,000. How many buyers would jump at the chance to pay that amount when they saw the procedure being performed first hand?!

 

I'm sick and tired of blaming CGC, dealers, etc. for what they perceive to be a legitimate cause, instead of bringing the truth to the masses. It's just too hard to investigate every little hole or crack. I'm not talking about putting down the main players for using this system to their advantage, but basically revealing what's behind the curtain so everyone can see. I can understand that CGC only grades the book in front of them, and I can even understand certain dealers using the current system to their benefit. I'm not even questioning how the book can go up in grade with this manipulation. But my point is that what does the CGC grade really mean, and should it have as much emphasis as whether or not a book has great QP, centered pages, great gloss, etc. There's no reason why an ugly looking 7.0 Fiction House copy with extremely faded colors should sell for more than a nice looking 5.0 copy that has great gloss, excellent presentation, but with a few non-color breaking creases, and a 1/4" tear. That's not CGC's fault, but ours for blindly following the grades given.

 

People should utilize CGC's grading to their own benefit and not the other way around. I truelly believe that in time the CGC grade would matter to the potential buyer, but its significance would drop to maybe 25% to 50% of what the they're really looking for. When all is said and done, what makes the most sense is usually accepted by the collecting community. Hopefully, that day could be reached soon and people start educating themselves so they are aware of their surroundings.

[nearmint]

I think it's always a concern when a key book doubles in value. This is where educating the public comes into factor, and a majority of collectors are made aware that the difference between an 8.5 and 9.2, or a 9.4 and 9.8 CGC graded copy could be a minor press job or erased dirt away. Maybe if enough people understand the actual process that CGC uses to grade these books, then we won't get these huge price jumps for an insignificant amount of change.

Personally I do find it somewhat confusing.

 

If grading is about communicating condition to another person, and the current Flat-tastic Age of comic collecting keeps evolving, maybe future labels will add a P (potential) afterthought.

 

Like 8.5P2 for one that could potentially jump 2 levels if reconditioned, or 8.5P0 for a deadnuts VF+ with zero potential/or already reconditioned.

Maybe 4.0P9 for one with tuckable paper near a poped staple.

 

I know you are being sarcastic, but this is the best idea Ive read on the Boards in a while. I mean, if we are truly approaching a time in our hobby when improving books through having work done on them is commonplace, encouraged and accepted by collectors and dealers, the next step in professional appraisal/grading is to notate how much potential each book contains.

 

isnt it?

 

You never know exactly how much a dry clean and press will improve a book until you actually try it, and since different restorers use different methods (with different levels of effectiveness), it would be impossible to tell how many grade levels a book would potentially improve from a press job simply by looking at it before treatment. That's not to say that someone couldn't eyeball it and make an educated guess, but there's no way to do it with enough certainty to put a separate number on a slab for it.

 

I like this idea despite the probable inaccuracy. An obvious alternative is to provide (on the label fine with me) detail as to why the grade is such, and the educated consumer will know what are "improvable" features, using either non-plodding or plodding resto.

 

Matt Nelson's "proscreen" service essentially doest the same thing. It's not putting it on a CGC label, but you can have books evaluated for their "potential" grade. Again, it's an educated guess, and not guaranteed in any way. If I remember correctly, he believed my America's Best #7 would grade out at 7.5-8.0 after pressing. Neither of us thought it would obtain the 9.0 it got.

[FFB]

 

You never know exactly how much a dry clean and press will improve a book until you actually try it, and since different restorers use different methods (with different levels of effectiveness), it would be impossible to tell how many grade levels a book would potentially improve from a press job simply by looking at it before treatment. That's not to say that someone couldn't eyeball it and make an educated guess, but there's no way to do it with enough certainty to put a separate number on a slab for it.

I thought "eyeball it and make an educated guess" was what you paid for with pro-grading. A subjective point-in-time professional opinion that's printed on a label.

 

Why couldn't some future label reflect two "eyeball it" opinions. One N-grade (now) opinion and another P-grade (potential) opinion? Like combining CGC's grading service with Classics Incorporated's "Proscreen" (evaluation for upgrade potential) service.

 

Both services are available independently for a fee, so it would just be "one stop shopping", wouldn't it? An "eye ball it" combo deal, printed on the same label.

 

Because, as I said before, you never know how well a crease is going to come out until you press it out. Maybe it comes out 50%, maybe it is completely gone. Same with warping related to moisture or other pressable defects. How much will a press job improve the spine ripples on that squarebound? Maybe 25% better? Maybe 70% better? And then what happens if the restoration professional who is pressing the book causes a spine split, because despite what the book looked like before pressing, the spine was really fragile and the mild pressure caused it to burst? No one can answer the question of potential because there are variables that are outcome-determinative: who is going to press the book, how will they do it, and how is this particular book going to respond to the treatment?

 

When you're grading a book in its present state, you're assigning a grade based on what you see. You don't have to guess as to any variables. You apply the rules and grade what is in front of you.

 

For a potential grade, you're speculating on what might happen without any real knowledge of how well a given defect would come out or who is going to be doing the work. I think we saw this during Matt Nelson's pressing experiment. Before pressing the books, he gave anticipated grades after pressing that were usually a range instead of a specific number, and on some of them, the person who got the book thought that it didn't improve as much as anticipated. There's nothing to stop someone from speculating about how much a press job will improve a book, but it's impossible to do it with enough certainty to certify it and put it on a slab label.

[FFB]

Which again brings me back to the point that we as collectors need to evolve beyond this current state of the hobby. If a CGC graded book can double in value from $10,000 to $20,000 by erasing a small smudge of dirt and raising the grade by a couple of notches, then something is wrong. I truelly believe that eventually reality will catch up with perception, and people will wake up to the fact that they're shelling out thousands of hard earned dollars for a minor press job or dry cleanning, to raise a book's value 2-fold. This realization will ultimately have a huge impact on the state of the hobby once collectors are informed about what an 8.5 vs. 9.2 CGC graded copy really entails.

 

My sentiments exactly. Unfortunately, although I've said virtually the exact same thing here in the past, I am not sure that people will ever get to the point where they'll stop paying a big multiple for a .2 difference in grade. It doesn't make any sense (for the reasons you state), but that doesn't mean that they'll stop doing it.

[skybolt]

Which again brings me back to the point that we as collectors need to evolve beyond this current state of the hobby. If a CGC graded book can double in value from $10,000 to $20,000 by erasing a small smudge of dirt and raising the grade by a couple of notches, then something is wrong. I truelly believe that eventually reality will catch up with perception, and people will wake up to the fact that they're shelling out thousands of hard earned dollars for a minor press job or dry cleanning, to raise a book's value 2-fold. This realization will ultimately have a huge impact on the state of the hobby once collectors are informed about what an 8.5 vs. 9.2 CGC graded copy really entails.

 

My sentiments exactly. Unfortunately, although I've said virtually the exact same thing here in the past, I am not sure that people will ever get to the point where they'll stop paying a big multiple for a .2 difference in grade. It doesn't make any sense (for the reasons you state), but that doesn't mean that they'll stop doing it.

 

Unfortunately, I was one of those people as well.

[mica]

My sentiments exactly. Unfortunately, although I've said virtually the exact same thing here in the past,

Then quit saying it. Obviously people are seeing what you say first....then doing the opposite.

[Ze-man]

For instance, if I asked a bunch of high end collectors to step into a room and handed them a nice looking CGC graded 8.0 copy of ASM #1, and said this will cost you $10,000. As they reached for their wallet, I tell them to hold on a second. I grab the book, erase a few dirt smudges and apply some minor pressing in front of everyone. I then grab the book and hand it over to a CGC grader. Since they have to go through the proper protocol and grade the book in front of them, they hand the book back to me with a 9.0 grade. I then turn around to the same potential buyer and say the book will now cost you $30,000. How many buyers would jump at the chance to pay that amount when they saw the procedure being performed first hand?!

 

 

 

Sadly, all it takes is one.

 

Ze-

 

 

 

 

 

[Mr. Zipper]

Which again brings me back to the point that we as collectors need to evolve beyond this current state of the hobby. If a CGC graded book can double in value from $10,000 to $20,000 by erasing a small smudge of dirt and raising the grade by a couple of notches, then something is wrong. I truelly believe that eventually reality will catch up with perception, and people will wake up to the fact that they're shelling out thousands of hard earned dollars for a minor press job or dry cleanning, to raise a book's value 2-fold. This realization will ultimately have a huge impact on the state of the hobby once collectors are informed about what an 8.5 vs. 9.2 CGC graded copy really entails.

 

I mean it's like basically taking an authentic vase, that's in great condition, and rubbing off the dirt to increase its price from $100,000 to $200,000! For instance, if I asked a bunch of high end collectors to step into a room and handed them a nice looking CGC graded 8.0 copy of ASM #1, and said this will cost you $10,000. As they reached for their wallet, I tell them to hold on a second. I grab the book, erase a few dirt smudges and apply some minor pressing in front of everyone. I then grab the book and hand it over to a CGC grader. Since they have to go through the proper protocol and grade the book in front of them, they hand the book back to me with a 9.0 grade. I then turn around to the same potential buyer and say the book will now cost you $30,000. How many buyers would jump at the chance to pay that amount when they saw the procedure being performed first hand?!

 

I'm sick and tired of blaming CGC, dealers, etc. for what they perceive to be a legitimate cause, instead of bringing the truth to the masses. It's just too hard to investigate every little hole or crack. I'm not talking about putting down the main players for using this system to their advantage, but basically revealing what's behind the curtain so everyone can see. I can understand that CGC only grades the book in front of them, and I can even understand certain dealers using the current system to their benefit. I'm not even questioning how the book can go up in grade with this manipulation. But my point is that what does the CGC grade really mean, and should it have as much emphasis as whether or not a book has great QP, centered pages, great gloss, etc. There's no reason why an ugly looking 7.0 Fiction House copy with extremely faded colors should sell for more than a nice looking 5.0 copy that has great gloss, excellent presentation, but with a few non-color breaking creases, and a 1/4" tear. That's not CGC's fault, but ours for blindly following the grades given.

 

People should utilize CGC's grading to their own benefit and not the other way around. I truelly believe that in time the CGC grade would matter to the potential buyer, but its significance would drop to maybe 25% to 50% of what the they're really looking for. When all is said and done, what makes the most sense is usually accepted by the collecting community. Hopefully, that day could be reached soon and people start educating themselves so they are aware of their surroundings.

 

Superb post.

 

[Davenport]

Which again brings me back to the point that we as collectors need to evolve beyond this current state of the hobby. If a CGC graded book can double in value from $10,000 to $20,000 by erasing a small smudge of dirt and raising the grade by a couple of notches, then something is wrong. I truelly believe that eventually reality will catch up with perception, and people will wake up to the fact that they're shelling out thousands of hard earned dollars for a minor press job or dry cleanning, to raise a book's value 2-fold. This realization will ultimately have a huge impact on the state of the hobby once collectors are informed about what an 8.5 vs. 9.2 CGC graded copy really entails.

 

I mean it's like basically taking an authentic vase, that's in great condition, and rubbing off the dirt to increase its price from $100,000 to $200,000! For instance, if I asked a bunch of high end collectors to step into a room and handed them a nice looking CGC graded 8.0 copy of ASM #1, and said this will cost you $10,000. As they reached for their wallet, I tell them to hold on a second. I grab the book, erase a few dirt smudges and apply some minor pressing in front of everyone. I then grab the book and hand it over to a CGC grader. Since they have to go through the proper protocol and grade the book in front of them, they hand the book back to me with a 9.0 grade. I then turn around to the same potential buyer and say the book will now cost you $30,000. How many buyers would jump at the chance to pay that amount when they saw the procedure being performed first hand?!

 

I'm sick and tired of blaming CGC, dealers, etc. for what they perceive to be a legitimate cause, instead of bringing the truth to the masses. It's just too hard to investigate every little hole or crack. I'm not talking about putting down the main players for using this system to their advantage, but basically revealing what's behind the curtain so everyone can see. I can understand that CGC only grades the book in front of them, and I can even understand certain dealers using the current system to their benefit. I'm not even questioning how the book can go up in grade with this manipulation. But my point is that what does the CGC grade really mean, and should it have as much emphasis as whether or not a book has great QP, centered pages, great gloss, etc. There's no reason why an ugly looking 7.0 Fiction House copy with extremely faded colors should sell for more than a nice looking 5.0 copy that has great gloss, excellent presentation, but with a few non-color breaking creases, and a 1/4" tear. That's not CGC's fault, but ours for blindly following the grades given.

 

People should utilize CGC's grading to their own benefit and not the other way around. I truelly believe that in time the CGC grade would matter to the potential buyer, but its significance would drop to maybe 25% to 50% of what the they're really looking for. When all is said and done, what makes the most sense is usually accepted by the collecting community. Hopefully, that day could be reached soon and people start educating themselves so they are aware of their surroundings.

 

Superb post.

 

Ditto.

[DiceX]

Which again brings me back to the point that we as collectors need to evolve beyond this current state of the hobby. If a CGC graded book can double in value from $10,000 to $20,000 by erasing a small smudge of dirt and raising the grade by a couple of notches, then something is wrong. I truelly believe that eventually reality will catch up with perception, and people will wake up to the fact that they're shelling out thousands of hard earned dollars for a minor press job or dry cleanning, to raise a book's value 2-fold. This realization will ultimately have a huge impact on the state of the hobby once collectors are informed about what an 8.5 vs. 9.2 CGC graded copy really entails.

 

I mean it's like basically taking an authentic vase, that's in great condition, and rubbing off the dirt to increase its price from $100,000 to $200,000! For instance, if I asked a bunch of high end collectors to step into a room and handed them a nice looking CGC graded 8.0 copy of ASM #1, and said this will cost you $10,000. As they reached for their wallet, I tell them to hold on a second. I grab the book, erase a few dirt smudges and apply some minor pressing in front of everyone. I then grab the book and hand it over to a CGC grader. Since they have to go through the proper protocol and grade the book in front of them, they hand the book back to me with a 9.0 grade. I then turn around to the same potential buyer and say the book will now cost you $30,000. How many buyers would jump at the chance to pay that amount when they saw the procedure being performed first hand?!

 

I'm sick and tired of blaming CGC, dealers, etc. for what they perceive to be a legitimate cause, instead of bringing the truth to the masses. It's just too hard to investigate every little hole or crack. I'm not talking about putting down the main players for using this system to their advantage, but basically revealing what's behind the curtain so everyone can see. I can understand that CGC only grades the book in front of them, and I can even understand certain dealers using the current system to their benefit. I'm not even questioning how the book can go up in grade with this manipulation. But my point is that what does the CGC grade really mean, and should it have as much emphasis as whether or not a book has great QP, centered pages, great gloss, etc. There's no reason why an ugly looking 7.0 Fiction House copy with extremely faded colors should sell for more than a nice looking 5.0 copy that has great gloss, excellent presentation, but with a few non-color breaking creases, and a 1/4" tear. That's not CGC's fault, but ours for blindly following the grades given.

 

People should utilize CGC's grading to their own benefit and not the other way around. I truelly believe that in time the CGC grade would matter to the potential buyer, but its significance would drop to maybe 25% to 50% of what the they're really looking for. When all is said and done, what makes the most sense is usually accepted by the collecting community. Hopefully, that day could be reached soon and people start educating themselves so they are aware of their surroundings.

 

Superb post.

 

Ditto.

 

Tritto.

I think that is the best summary of the situation I have ever read. The villagers with torches would be wise to read it.

Bravo!

[FlyingDonut]

[FFB]

Which again brings me back to the point that we as collectors need to evolve beyond this current state of the hobby. If a CGC graded book can double in value from $10,000 to $20,000 by erasing a small smudge of dirt and raising the grade by a couple of notches, then something is wrong. I truelly believe that eventually reality will catch up with perception, and people will wake up to the fact that they're shelling out thousands of hard earned dollars for a minor press job or dry cleanning, to raise a book's value 2-fold. This realization will ultimately have a huge impact on the state of the hobby once collectors are informed about what an 8.5 vs. 9.2 CGC graded copy really entails.

 

My sentiments exactly. Unfortunately, although I've said virtually the exact same thing here in the past, I am not sure that people will ever get to the point where they'll stop paying a big multiple for a .2 difference in grade. It doesn't make any sense (for the reasons you state), but that doesn't mean that they'll stop doing it.

 

Unfortunately, I was one of those people as well.

 

Welcome to the club, my brother.

[skybolt]

Which again brings me back to the point that we as collectors need to evolve beyond this current state of the hobby. If a CGC graded book can double in value from $10,000 to $20,000 by erasing a small smudge of dirt and raising the grade by a couple of notches, then something is wrong. I truelly believe that eventually reality will catch up with perception, and people will wake up to the fact that they're shelling out thousands of hard earned dollars for a minor press job or dry cleanning, to raise a book's value 2-fold. This realization will ultimately have a huge impact on the state of the hobby once collectors are informed about what an 8.5 vs. 9.2 CGC graded copy really entails.

 

My sentiments exactly. Unfortunately, although I've said virtually the exact same thing here in the past, I am not sure that people will ever get to the point where they'll stop paying a big multiple for a .2 difference in grade. It doesn't make any sense (for the reasons you state), but that doesn't mean that they'll stop doing it.

 

Unfortunately, I was one of those people as well.

 

Welcome to the club, my brother.

 

My perception changed after reading many posts on these boards by various people. What also changed my mind was my GGA collecting habits. If I'm collecting books that showcase the beautifully drawn women, then I'd rather get a 6.0 copy with great QP, than an 8.0 copy that fades out all the good parts.

[FFB]

GGA ... all the good parts.

 

[Aman619]

lets all drink to 'the good parts!'

[Red Hook]

Education instead of eviseration.

[esquirecomics]

Education instead of eviseration.

 

[esquirecomics]

I agree. Especially since CGCs grading isnt an exact science when grading books in from of them, let alone guessing how much it could be improved. As I wrote my post, I saw where I was heading, but deleted it. But what the heck. It occurred to me that I was actually describing something that was seen by CGC as a similar venture. Namely - - PCS. They woudl receive a book, have Friessen look it over and alert the owner as to its potential. Then as a business venture, OFFER their services to RELEASE the "book within.

 

With PCS now a cautionary tale (and a rare "victory" of sanity prevailing here) and probably a sensitive subject for CGC, I hesitated to get into this aspect.. But what the heck, huh?

 

BTW, has anyone actually seen Friessen back at work with CGC? What exactly does he do there? I ask this with all sincerity b/c I simply do not comprehend the structure and I don't know him. Since "returning" to CGC, does he simply check each any every book for restoration all day long?

 

Does he run any particular side business?

[nearmint]

I agree. Especially since CGCs grading isnt an exact science when grading books in from of them, let alone guessing how much it could be improved. As I wrote my post, I saw where I was heading, but deleted it. But what the heck. It occurred to me that I was actually describing something that was seen by CGC as a similar venture. Namely - - PCS. They woudl receive a book, have Friessen look it over and alert the owner as to its potential. Then as a business venture, OFFER their services to RELEASE the "book within.

 

With PCS now a cautionary tale (and a rare "victory" of sanity prevailing here) and probably a sensitive subject for CGC, I hesitated to get into this aspect.. But what the heck, huh?

 

BTW, has anyone actually seen Friessen back at work with CGC? What exactly does he do there? I ask this with all sincerity b/c I simply do not comprehend the structure and I don't know him. Since "returning" to CGC, does he simply check each any every book for restoration all day long?

 

Does he run any particular side business?

 

Feeling the need to sew the seeds of a new conspiracy theory?