Does this make sense to anyone..?

[shadroch]

However, the chances of the book coming back exactly the same that many times is unlikely.

 

Brian

 

In the realm of the absurd all things are possible.

Did you not learn to speak hypotheticly in school,or did you waste your time learning spanish or latin,or worse yet.english grammer.

[sfilosa]

Your assuming that the top census grade translates into true value. As many board members have said, the census is in it infancy. What's to say, while you are resubmitting your book 25 times, three more copies aren't submitted that come back 10.0.

 

The census is a tool and that is it. If you are buying books now and paying a huge premium because they are the top graded copy, I believe you are making a big mistake. Ten years from now, it could look drastically different. While there might not be "slews" of high grade hoards out there, there are definitely high grade collections that are owned by the people who have collected comics for many years that are not CGC'd.

 

I own several highest grade CGC comics and none are in NM. Does that mean there are no NM copies, probably not. Its just that (and especially Golden Age), the true long term collector isn't planning on grading/selling anytime soon.

 

 

[shadroch]

Your assuming that the top census grade translates into true value. As many board members have said, the census is in it infancy. What's to say, while you are resubmitting your book 25 times, three more copies aren't submitted that come back 10.0.The census is a tool and that is it. If you are buying books now and paying a huge premium because they are the top graded copy, I believe you are making a big mistake. Ten years from now, it could look drastically different. While there might not be "slews" of high grade hoards out there, there are definitely high grade collections that are owned by the people who have collected comics for many years that are not CGC'd. I own several highest grade CGC comics and none are in NM. Does that mean there are no NM copies, probably not. Its just that (and especially Golden Age), the true long term collector isn't planning on grading/selling anytime soon.

PARTYPOOPER

[garthgantu]

So to Shadroch's point, the best protection that CGC has against people 'gaming' its system in this particular way *is CGC's own inconsistency* ?? Now THERE'S an argument for not improving an existing system!

 

I'm definitely in the camp of "positively identify each book in some irreversible way," such as a coded stamp in the margin of page X, that can only be seen via infrared light or whatever. But since it could dramatically cut down the number of resubmits, which will be an increasing % of CGC's overall revenue going forward, they'd never go for this.

 

Never mind the fact that it could help track stolen books, cut down on people trying to game the system, better ensure the accuracy of the census, etc.

 

 

 

 

[Illiterati-migration]

However, the chances of the book coming back exactly the same that many times is unlikely.

 

Brian

 

In the realm of the absurd all things are possible.

Did you not learn to speak hypotheticly in school,or did you waste your time learning spanish or latin,or worse yet.english grammer.

 

Pimp-slapped by irony. Tragic.

[sborock]

"I'm definitely in the camp of "positively identify each book in some irreversible way," such as a coded stamp in the margin of page X, that can only be seen via infrared light or whatever. But since it could dramatically cut down the number of resubmits, which will be an increasing % of CGC's overall revenue going forward, they'd never go for this.

 

Never mind the fact that it could help track stolen books, cut down on people trying to game the system, better ensure the accuracy of the census, etc. "

 

I actually liked that idea. CGC brought this up at the first "collectors only" meeting we had before we opened when we were gathering information and opinions to help us. There were collectors of different genres and they were not from the same collecting "clicks", but it was shot down by EVERY collector in the room. They all said they did not want anything "added" to their comics.

 

[BlackShotzy-migration]

I don't think that many of these collectors realized that the comics could be "marked" invisibly to the naked, unaided eye. Not only would doing so eliminate the gross inconsistancies in the census due to resubs and crack-outs, but help in ID'ing stolen merchandise.

 

Even DIAMONDS and other precious gemstones now are routinely "marked" primarily to aid in theft recovery.

 

I'm sure that a comic could be marked for positive ID in such a slight and unobtrusive way as to be undetectable to everyone other than the person who marked it using some state of the art system. Some of these books DO have their own "markers". A date stamp positioned in a precise way, an imprint, a "Church" or other pedigree notation, but some type of UV marker could go a long way in identifying books that really have no remarkable identifying feature.

[OldGuy]

I'm sure that a comic could be marked for positive ID in such a slight and unobtrusive way as to be undetectable to everyone other than the person who marked it using some state of the art system.

 

Sort of like really good restoration?

[jonnydouble]

I'm sure that a comic could be marked for positive ID in such a slight and unobtrusive way as to be undetectable to everyone other than the person who marked it using some state of the art system.

 

Sort of like really good restoration?

 

DOOH!

[sfilosa]

One point no one is considering is that grading standards can also change in the future. Everyone knows that grading has gotten tighter in the past 30 years.

 

I'm not saying that it will get even tighter the next 30 years, but by trying to identify a book and saying that the CGC grade of today would automatically be the grade 30 years from now, is probably not a correct assumption.

 

Yes, we would all like to assume that because of CGC that there is now a 100% full proof "standard" grading system. But, I'm sure we all know that is not the case.

 

Thirty years down the road, the collecting community as a whole might deem a book with a few stress lines a higher grade than a book with no "wear and tear" but horribly miscut or manufactured.

 

Also, what happens if a grader does undergrade a book (example: believes that a certain defect is "wear and tear" and then after grading several more copies of that book realized that all the books have the same "wear and tear" making the defect a manufacturing defect instead). According to the "identification" system, the book could not be graded higher. That's just plain wrong.

 

Remember, grading is an art not a science. CGC is giving its grade as of that day, at that time to a book. Use it as a tool, not a "pure scientific fact".

 

 

[plitch]

Sort of like really good restoration?

 

Couldn't marking books put some book "Doctors" out of business?

hmm...

 

 

[OldGuy]

Sort of like really good restoration?

 

Couldn't marking books put some book "Doctors" out of business?

hmm...

 

 

[vic6string]

My two cents:

 

On invisibly marking books - No way! First of all, it means more unnecessary handling of the book, secondly, you don't know what these "invisible marks" will look like in 20 years. There have been tons of different materials used in comics paper over the years. Maybe on books from 1945 the paper is a type that the "invisible ink" leaves a visible stain. Imagine being the owver of that 9.0 Action Comics #1 and finding 10 years later that you can faintly see a serial number printed in th lower right corner of the back cover.

 

On problems with the census - The census is a cool little tool to give people a decent idea of the ppulation of high grade copies of the book. It will NEVER be perfect. Asking CGC to identify every book coming in against all existing submissions is insane. If someone resubs a book and doesn't note it on the submission, too bad! The census will be off. It is not gospel. Never has been, never will be. That is why I love all these people who pay insane money for books because they are the "highest graded copy". There may be 30 higher grade copies tomorrow afternoon.

 

CGC does a good job with an inexact science and a picky clientelle. What they do is subjective by nature, and that can't be changed. The census is a nice little extra that they give us for free, but is one that is virtually impossible to maintain with 100% accuracy. If you don't like their business practices, grade your own books. If people disagree with you when you try to sell your unslabbed books, live with it. If you buy unslabbed books that are seriously overgraded, live with it.

[OldGuy]

My two cents:

If you don't like their business practices, grade your own books. If people disagree with you when you try to sell your unslabbed books, live with it. If you buy unslabbed books that are seriously overgraded, live with it.

 

And let's not forget, if you buy seriously overgraded CGC books, live with it.

[sfilosa]

To Vic6String:

 

Well said!

 

 

[garthgantu]

My two cents:

 

On invisibly marking books - No way! First of all, it means more unnecessary handling of the book, secondly, you don't know what these "invisible marks" will look like in 20 years. There have been tons of different materials used in comics paper over the years. Maybe on books from 1945 the paper is a type that the "invisible ink" leaves a visible stain. Imagine being the owver of that 9.0 Action Comics #1 and finding 10 years later that you can faintly see a serial number printed in th lower right corner of the back cover.

 

On problems with the census - The census is a cool little tool to give people a decent idea of the ppulation of high grade copies of the book. It will NEVER be perfect. Asking CGC to identify every book coming in against all existing submissions is insane. If someone resubs a book and doesn't note it on the submission, too bad! The census will be off. It is not gospel. Never has been, never will be. That is why I love all these people who pay insane money for books because they are the "highest graded copy". There may be 30 higher grade copies tomorrow afternoon.

 

CGC does a good job with an inexact science and a picky clientelle. What they do is subjective by nature, and that can't be changed. The census is a nice little extra that they give us for free, but is one that is virtually impossible to maintain with 100% accuracy. If you don't like their business practices, grade your own books. If people disagree with you when you try to sell your unslabbed books, live with it. If you buy unslabbed books that are seriously overgraded, live with it.

 

I disagree on a couple of points:

1) with modern printing technology, a very small "serial code" of 12 or so digits could be imprinted in the margin of the last page or something. Hell, you could probably print the number small enough so that it fit in the black border around a given panel, so that if it did somehow become visible over time, the black background would make it impossible to see with the naked eye. Even if it DID somehow become visible over time, would it really matter? People accept grease pencil markings on the cover of books and so forth. In fact, the "CGC stamp" in question might just help the book's value, at least in terms of substantiating its provenance.

 

2) "The census is a cool little tool..." My point exactly - if the resubs continue at the current pace, this cool little tool will soon be almost valueless, at least where many key and hard-to-find issues are concerned. If the census shows 63 copies of Sensation #21 slabbed, when in fact only 28 have been slabbed over and over again, then the census is nigh unto worthless for many people, particularly those on these boards.

 

 

[murph0]

Then how do you propose to fix the census? It's one thing to complain about a problem, it's another thing to suggest a way to fix the problem. Would you rather have absolutely no information on how frequently a book shows up? If so, why? I'd rather have a ballpark idea of how often a book comes up in 9.4 or whatever grade than absolutely no idea at all.

 

Brian