Amazing Spider-Man Collecting Thread! 37 37

[Bluetooth-migration]

Figured I would put it here as well...

Placed orders for the following:

Amazing Spider-man 24 - 9.0

Amazing Spider-man 32 - 8.0

Amazing Spider-man 40 - 8.0

Amazing Spider-man Annual 2 - 7.5

Amazing Spider-man Annual 6 - 9.0

 

And upgraded my ASM 39 7.0 to this in an unexpected win.

 

Only one more book to go (Amazing Spider-man Annual 1) I have quite a few eBay dollars to spend so I will look into that in a week or two.

 

 

 

Was watching that one on HA last nite...niiize!

 

+1

 

HA had some nice spiders in the 9.0-9.4 range last night that all seemed to go pretty cheap. I would have loved to grab 2-3 more but just have too much going on this month to be grabbing a bunch of Spideys

 

Thanks... Heritage is more miss than hit for me as they charge tax on order going into NY. WIth buyers premiums combined with tax it is hard to get anything even on average price. Most of my winnings come from eBay, CLink and the boards. Sometimes this even affects my buying through Metropolis. Why pay more?

 

+1

 

It REALLY sucks when you just happen to be one of the unlucky putzes that lives in the home state of whatever auction house and get banged out for the sales tax

 

Yep, living in Texas and bidding through Heritage means their buyer's premium plus another bite for sales tax. No fun.

 

Add to that, shill bidding being legal in Texas

 

Triple whammy

[Buzzetta]

Figured I would put it here as well...

Placed orders for the following:

Amazing Spider-man 24 - 9.0

Amazing Spider-man 32 - 8.0

Amazing Spider-man 40 - 8.0

Amazing Spider-man Annual 2 - 7.5

Amazing Spider-man Annual 6 - 9.0

 

And upgraded my ASM 39 7.0 to this in an unexpected win.

 

Only one more book to go (Amazing Spider-man Annual 1) I have quite a few eBay dollars to spend so I will look into that in a week or two.

 

 

 

Was watching that one on HA last nite...niiize!

 

+1

 

HA had some nice spiders in the 9.0-9.4 range last night that all seemed to go pretty cheap. I would have loved to grab 2-3 more but just have too much going on this month to be grabbing a bunch of Spideys

 

Thanks... Heritage is more miss than hit for me as they charge tax on order going into NY. WIth buyers premiums combined with tax it is hard to get anything even on average price. Most of my winnings come from eBay, CLink and the boards. Sometimes this even affects my buying through Metropolis. Why pay more?

 

+1

 

It REALLY sucks when you just happen to be one of the unlucky putzes that lives in the home state of whatever auction house and get banged out for the sales tax

 

Yep, living in Texas and bidding through Heritage means their buyer's premium plus another bite for sales tax. No fun.

 

Add to that, shill bidding being legal in Texas

 

Triple whammy

 

Really? What is the justification for that?

[Peter Loves Gwen]

Here's a 9.6 ASM 108 I received from Adam recently, raw now. It's a tough book in grade, and with no white spine.

 

[Bluetooth-migration]

Figured I would put it here as well...

Placed orders for the following:

Amazing Spider-man 24 - 9.0

Amazing Spider-man 32 - 8.0

Amazing Spider-man 40 - 8.0

Amazing Spider-man Annual 2 - 7.5

Amazing Spider-man Annual 6 - 9.0

 

And upgraded my ASM 39 7.0 to this in an unexpected win.

 

Only one more book to go (Amazing Spider-man Annual 1) I have quite a few eBay dollars to spend so I will look into that in a week or two.

 

 

 

Was watching that one on HA last nite...niiize!

 

+1

 

HA had some nice spiders in the 9.0-9.4 range last night that all seemed to go pretty cheap. I would have loved to grab 2-3 more but just have too much going on this month to be grabbing a bunch of Spideys

 

Thanks... Heritage is more miss than hit for me as they charge tax on order going into NY. WIth buyers premiums combined with tax it is hard to get anything even on average price. Most of my winnings come from eBay, CLink and the boards. Sometimes this even affects my buying through Metropolis. Why pay more?

 

+1

 

It REALLY sucks when you just happen to be one of the unlucky putzes that lives in the home state of whatever auction house and get banged out for the sales tax

 

Yep, living in Texas and bidding through Heritage means their buyer's premium plus another bite for sales tax. No fun.

 

Add to that, shill bidding being legal in Texas

 

Triple whammy

 

Really? What is the justification for that?

 

You may want to read this carefully

 

http://texasauctioneer.blogspot.co.uk/2010/10/auction-shills-cappers-puffers-reserves.html

 

and then this,

 

http://www.originalprop.com/blog/2009/10/27/heritage-auction-galleries-lawsuit-in-the-news-claims-of-fake-bidder-n-p-gresham-auction-manipulation/

 

it's certainly food for thought.

[Buzzetta]

Figured I would put it here as well...

Placed orders for the following:

Amazing Spider-man 24 - 9.0

Amazing Spider-man 32 - 8.0

Amazing Spider-man 40 - 8.0

Amazing Spider-man Annual 2 - 7.5

Amazing Spider-man Annual 6 - 9.0

 

And upgraded my ASM 39 7.0 to this in an unexpected win.

 

Only one more book to go (Amazing Spider-man Annual 1) I have quite a few eBay dollars to spend so I will look into that in a week or two.

 

 

 

Was watching that one on HA last nite...niiize!

 

+1

 

HA had some nice spiders in the 9.0-9.4 range last night that all seemed to go pretty cheap. I would have loved to grab 2-3 more but just have too much going on this month to be grabbing a bunch of Spideys

 

Thanks... Heritage is more miss than hit for me as they charge tax on order going into NY. WIth buyers premiums combined with tax it is hard to get anything even on average price. Most of my winnings come from eBay, CLink and the boards. Sometimes this even affects my buying through Metropolis. Why pay more?

 

+1

 

It REALLY sucks when you just happen to be one of the unlucky putzes that lives in the home state of whatever auction house and get banged out for the sales tax

 

Yep, living in Texas and bidding through Heritage means their buyer's premium plus another bite for sales tax. No fun.

 

Add to that, shill bidding being legal in Texas

 

Triple whammy

 

Really? What is the justification for that?

 

You may want to read this carefully

 

http://texasauctioneer.blogspot.co.uk/2010/10/auction-shills-cappers-puffers-reserves.html

 

and then this,

 

http://www.originalprop.com/blog/2009/10/27/heritage-auction-galleries-lawsuit-in-the-news-claims-of-fake-bidder-n-p-gresham-auction-manipulation/

 

it's certainly food for thought.

 

Of course my argument to my States Attorney General would be that if we are saying that Heritage is also based in NY hence various auctions that they run here in NY and the fact that all purchases through Heritage are subject to NYS Sales tax then why am I being subjected (victim) to Texas auction rules that place NY's at an unfair position?

 

I am not a fan of shill bidding. If you have a reserve then simply start the auction at the minimum that you are willing to let it go for from the beginning. As I said though. Heritage is more miss than hit and my bidding through them is becoming more and more rare these days as I go after pricier books.

[mysterio]

Figured I would put it here as well...

Placed orders for the following:

Amazing Spider-man 24 - 9.0

Amazing Spider-man 32 - 8.0

Amazing Spider-man 40 - 8.0

Amazing Spider-man Annual 2 - 7.5

Amazing Spider-man Annual 6 - 9.0

 

And upgraded my ASM 39 7.0 to this in an unexpected win.

 

Only one more book to go (Amazing Spider-man Annual 1) I have quite a few eBay dollars to spend so I will look into that in a week or two.

 

 

 

Was watching that one on HA last nite...niiize!

 

+1

 

HA had some nice spiders in the 9.0-9.4 range last night that all seemed to go pretty cheap. I would have loved to grab 2-3 more but just have too much going on this month to be grabbing a bunch of Spideys

 

Thanks... Heritage is more miss than hit for me as they charge tax on order going into NY. WIth buyers premiums combined with tax it is hard to get anything even on average price. Most of my winnings come from eBay, CLink and the boards. Sometimes this even affects my buying through Metropolis. Why pay more?

 

+1

 

It REALLY sucks when you just happen to be one of the unlucky putzes that lives in the home state of whatever auction house and get banged out for the sales tax

 

Yep, living in Texas and bidding through Heritage means their buyer's premium plus another bite for sales tax. No fun.

 

Add to that, shill bidding being legal in Texas

 

Triple whammy

 

Really? What is the justification for that?

 

You may want to read this carefully

 

http://texasauctioneer.blogspot.co.uk/2010/10/auction-shills-cappers-puffers-reserves.html

 

and then this,

 

http://www.originalprop.com/blog/2009/10/27/heritage-auction-galleries-lawsuit-in-the-news-claims-of-fake-bidder-n-p-gresham-auction-manipulation/

 

it's certainly food for thought.

 

Of course my argument to my States Attorney General would be that if we are saying that Heritage is also based in NY hence various auctions that they run here in NY and the fact that all purchases through Heritage are subject to NYS Sales tax then why am I being subjected (victim) to Texas auction rules that place NY's at an unfair position?

 

 

And I'm sure that the state of New York wouldn't have a problem charging you the higher sales tax on the shilled amount. It wouldn't just be New Yorkers that would be at a disadvantage, as everyone bidding on the lot is on the same playing field. States have to respect the state laws of other states. This is why you don't need 50 driver's licenses and 50 different marriage licenses.

[Buzzetta]

Figured I would put it here as well...

Placed orders for the following:

Amazing Spider-man 24 - 9.0

Amazing Spider-man 32 - 8.0

Amazing Spider-man 40 - 8.0

Amazing Spider-man Annual 2 - 7.5

Amazing Spider-man Annual 6 - 9.0

 

And upgraded my ASM 39 7.0 to this in an unexpected win.

 

Only one more book to go (Amazing Spider-man Annual 1) I have quite a few eBay dollars to spend so I will look into that in a week or two.

 

 

 

Was watching that one on HA last nite...niiize!

 

+1

 

HA had some nice spiders in the 9.0-9.4 range last night that all seemed to go pretty cheap. I would have loved to grab 2-3 more but just have too much going on this month to be grabbing a bunch of Spideys

 

Thanks... Heritage is more miss than hit for me as they charge tax on order going into NY. WIth buyers premiums combined with tax it is hard to get anything even on average price. Most of my winnings come from eBay, CLink and the boards. Sometimes this even affects my buying through Metropolis. Why pay more?

 

+1

 

It REALLY sucks when you just happen to be one of the unlucky putzes that lives in the home state of whatever auction house and get banged out for the sales tax

 

Yep, living in Texas and bidding through Heritage means their buyer's premium plus another bite for sales tax. No fun.

 

Add to that, shill bidding being legal in Texas

 

Triple whammy

 

Really? What is the justification for that?

 

You may want to read this carefully

 

http://texasauctioneer.blogspot.co.uk/2010/10/auction-shills-cappers-puffers-reserves.html

 

and then this,

 

http://www.originalprop.com/blog/2009/10/27/heritage-auction-galleries-lawsuit-in-the-news-claims-of-fake-bidder-n-p-gresham-auction-manipulation/

 

it's certainly food for thought.

 

Of course my argument to my States Attorney General would be that if we are saying that Heritage is also based in NY hence various auctions that they run here in NY and the fact that all purchases through Heritage are subject to NYS Sales tax then why am I being subjected (victim) to Texas auction rules that place NY's at an unfair position?

 

 

And I'm sure that the state of New York wouldn't have a problem charging you the higher sales tax on the shilled amount. It wouldn't just be New Yorkers that would be at a disadvantage, as everyone bidding on the lot is on the same playing field. States have to respect the state laws of other states. This is why you don't need 50 driver's licenses and 50 different marriage licenses.

 

I understand the full faith and credit clause of the Constitution. Article 4, Section 1 if I remember correctly. However... Yes and No... When Cuomo was AG - He went after Ticketmaster and the Miami Dolphins for instituting policy that put New York State residents at a disadvantage. While not exact in nature, the argument could be built that the current policies put certain states at a disadvantage to others by limiting purchasing power.

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/football/2008-01-03-2902623599_x.htm

 

[mysterio]

 

Of course my argument to my States Attorney General would be that if we are saying that Heritage is also based in NY hence various auctions that they run here in NY and the fact that all purchases through Heritage are subject to NYS Sales tax then why am I being subjected (victim) to Texas auction rules that place NY's at an unfair position?

 

 

And I'm sure that the state of New York wouldn't have a problem charging you the higher sales tax on the shilled amount. It wouldn't just be New Yorkers that would be at a disadvantage, as everyone bidding on the lot is on the same playing field. States have to respect the state laws of other states. This is why you don't need 50 driver's licenses and 50 different marriage licenses.

 

I understand the full faith and credit clause of the Constitution. Article 4, Section 1 if I remember correctly. However... Yes and No... When Cuomo was AG - He went after Ticketmaster and the Miami Dolphins for instituting policy that put New York State residents at a disadvantage. While not exact in nature, the argument could be built that the current policies put certain states at a disadvantage to others by limiting purchasing power.

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/football/2008-01-03-2902623599_x.htm

 

Ticketmaster and the Miami Dolphins aren't states, so policies they introduce wouldn't be treated in the same way that a Texas state law would.

 

You could also argue that the unusually high state sales tax charged by NY puts its citizens at a disadvantage by limiting their purchasing power too.

 

And before we get too far afield from the purpose of this thread, here is a pretty book from the July Clink auction. It has a full L in Learn and the code stamp is about as complete as you'll get. Too bad about the PQ.

 

[Buzzetta]

 

Of course my argument to my States Attorney General would be that if we are saying that Heritage is also based in NY hence various auctions that they run here in NY and the fact that all purchases through Heritage are subject to NYS Sales tax then why am I being subjected (victim) to Texas auction rules that place NY's at an unfair position?

 

 

And I'm sure that the state of New York wouldn't have a problem charging you the higher sales tax on the shilled amount. It wouldn't just be New Yorkers that would be at a disadvantage, as everyone bidding on the lot is on the same playing field. States have to respect the state laws of other states. This is why you don't need 50 driver's licenses and 50 different marriage licenses.

 

I understand the full faith and credit clause of the Constitution. Article 4, Section 1 if I remember correctly. However... Yes and No... When Cuomo was AG - He went after Ticketmaster and the Miami Dolphins for instituting policy that put New York State residents at a disadvantage. While not exact in nature, the argument could be built that the current policies put certain states at a disadvantage to others by limiting purchasing power.

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/football/2008-01-03-2902623599_x.htm

 

Ticketmaster and the Miami Dolphins aren't states, so policies they introduce wouldn't be treated in the same way that a Texas state law would.

 

You could also argue that the unusually high state sales tax charged by NY puts its citizens at a disadvantage by limiting their purchasing power too.

 

Oh I know they are not states but I am throwing the argument out there as a means of discussion.

[jimjum12]

 

Of course my argument to my States Attorney General would be that if we are saying that Heritage is also based in NY hence various auctions that they run here in NY and the fact that all purchases through Heritage are subject to NYS Sales tax then why am I being subjected (victim) to Texas auction rules that place NY's at an unfair position?

 

 

And I'm sure that the state of New York wouldn't have a problem charging you the higher sales tax on the shilled amount. It wouldn't just be New Yorkers that would be at a disadvantage, as everyone bidding on the lot is on the same playing field. States have to respect the state laws of other states. This is why you don't need 50 driver's licenses and 50 different marriage licenses.

 

I understand the full faith and credit clause of the Constitution. Article 4, Section 1 if I remember correctly. However... Yes and No... When Cuomo was AG - He went after Ticketmaster and the Miami Dolphins for instituting policy that put New York State residents at a disadvantage. While not exact in nature, the argument could be built that the current policies put certain states at a disadvantage to others by limiting purchasing power.

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/football/2008-01-03-2902623599_x.htm

 

Ticketmaster and the Miami Dolphins aren't states, so policies they introduce wouldn't be treated in the same way that a Texas state law would.

 

You could also argue that the unusually high state sales tax charged by NY puts its citizens at a disadvantage by limiting their purchasing power too.

 

And before we get too far afield from the purpose of this thread, here is a pretty book from the July Clink auction. It has a full L in Learn and the code stamp is about as complete as you'll get. Too bad about the PQ.

 

 

If it's a resubbed Manarino copy, I hear the tanning is not really as bad as you might think...and the spines are usually superb. GOD BLESS...

 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus) (thumbs u

[TexasAuctioneer-migration]

Add to that, shill bidding being legal in Texas

 

Triple whammy

 

Really? What is the justification for that?

 

You may want to read this carefully

 

http://texasauctioneer.blogspot.co.uk/2010/10/auction-shills-cappers-puffers-reserves.html

 

and then this,

 

http://www.originalprop.com/blog/2009/10/27/heritage-auction-galleries-lawsuit-in-the-news-claims-of-fake-bidder-n-p-gresham-auction-manipulation/

 

it's certainly food for thought.

 

Of course my argument to my States Attorney General would be that if we are saying that Heritage is also based in NY hence various auctions that they run here in NY and the fact that all purchases through Heritage are subject to NYS Sales tax then why am I being subjected (victim) to Texas auction rules that place NY's at an unfair position?

 

I am not a fan of shill bidding. If you have a reserve then simply start the auction at the minimum that you are willing to let it go for from the beginning. As I said though. Heritage is more miss than hit and my bidding through them is becoming more and more rare these days as I go after pricier books.

I am the auctioneer that runs the texasauctioneer.blogspot.com blog, although I don't know why it has "co.uk" (shown in the post) on the tail-end, as I'm definitely in Texas. This may be futile, but I'll try to throw a little light on a couple of the comments made.

 

First, the same laws apply in almost every state (even NY), as the U.C.C. was adopted by 49 states (LA adopted most of it). The U.C.C. was drafted in the 1940's as a guide and states started adopting it into their laws, with the last state doing so in the 1960's.

 

There is a DIFFERENCE between "shill" bidding and bidding on behalf of a minimum reserve. If notice is not given to the bidders that the "right to bid" by the seller or other authorized agent (the agent may be the auctioneer or a staff member), then it is illegal and that is the definition of Shilling.

 

Now, it's apparent that you may not have read Heritage's Terms & Conditions, as they Do Disclose the right for such bidding in those Terms. Therefore, it is NOT shilling.

 

Concerning the comment about "starting at the minimum"... there's just one little problem. It's called Human Nature.

 

Most of the time, when an auctioneer discloses the minimum and asks for bids, everyone "sits on their hands" (won't bid). I've even seen those that will call out a lower bid, after I've told them what the MINIMUM bid is... now, one might wonder, do they think you'll sell it to them anyway?

 

Yes, auctioneers utilize Human Nature (just like all other sales people) in an effort to get people to to start the bidding, wherever they want to start it... then allow the bidding to go from that point. In most cases, if it's a reasonable reserve, the item will meet or exceed it.

 

However, there are times when there may only be one individual interested in a particular item (or other bidders drop out before it meets the minimum). So, the auctioneer may allow the individual to start the bidding where-ever they wish and (if properly DISCLOSED) bid on behalf of the minimum reserve price.

 

Keep in mind, you must be an adult of legal age to bid at auction, as you are agreeing to the Terms, which is a legal contract. As a legal adult, you have responsibility for reading and/or understanding the terms of the contract that you are agreeing to. It is not the Seller's responsibility to make you read or understand. If you're not sure of the terms, one should ask questions prior to bidding or get the advice of an attorney.

 

There ya have it, folks. I hope this helps open a few eyes.

 

Jim

[TexasAuctioneer-migration]

I might also add that all referenced lawsuits against Heritage were dismissed by the courts.

 

Read the outcome on Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heritage_Auctions

 

You should also read this article that sheds more light on Hendershott and another individual that also tried suing them over wrongful allegations.

http://www.tuffstuff.com/news/heritages-ivy-says-company-comimtted-no-violations

 

[fantastic_four]

There is a DIFFERENCE between "shill" bidding and bidding on behalf of a minimum reserve. If notice is not given to the bidders that the "right to bid" by the seller or other authorized agent (the agent may be the auctioneer or a staff member), then it is illegal and that is the definition of Shilling.

 

Now, it's apparent that you may not have read Heritage's Terms & Conditions, as they Do Disclose the right for such bidding in those Terms. Therefore, it is NOT shilling.

 

Concerning the comment about "starting at the minimum"... there's just one little problem. It's called Human Nature.

 

Most of the time, when an auctioneer discloses the minimum and asks for bids, everyone "sits on their hands" (won't bid). I've even seen those that will call out a lower bid, after I've told them what the MINIMUM bid is... now, one might wonder, do they think you'll sell it to them anyway?

 

One might wonder that because you started the bidding below the reserve. Why not start at the minimum? I ask rhetorically, already knowing the answer--it's a game to generate interest. Can't mentally fault bidders with a for playing the silly little game that's been set up for them to play--that's just a bizarre thing to fault them for.

 

Under the law, can the seller or authorized agent bid beyond the minimum reserve?

[Peter Loves Gwen]

There is a DIFFERENCE between "shill" bidding and bidding on behalf of a minimum reserve. If notice is not given to the bidders that the "right to bid" by the seller or other authorized agent (the agent may be the auctioneer or a staff member), then it is illegal and that is the definition of Shilling.

 

Now, it's apparent that you may not have read Heritage's Terms & Conditions, as they Do Disclose the right for such bidding in those Terms. Therefore, it is NOT shilling.

 

Concerning the comment about "starting at the minimum"..."there's just one little problem. It's called Human Nature."

 

 

Most of the time, when an auctioneer discloses the minimum and asks for bids, everyone "sits on their hands" (won't bid). I've even seen those that will call out a lower bid, after I've told them what the MINIMUM bid is... now, one might wonder, do they think you'll sell it to them anyway?

 

One might wonder that because you started the bidding below the reserve. Why not start at the minimum? I ask rhetorically, already knowing the answer--it's a game to generate interest. Can't mentally fault bidders with a for playing the silly little game that's been set up for them to play--that's just a bizarre thing to fault them for.

 

Under the law, can the seller or authorized agent bid beyond the minimum reserve?

 

I wasn't going to post anything, but you just brought up the underlying question the laws bring to my mind.

 

Regarding HA, because they list in their terms and conditions that they can and will bid in their own auctions, it is legal for HA or the auctioneer to bid in the HA auctions. HA states(in those reports of the court cases, referenced above) that they will set a price before an auction that they will pay for an item, and presumably bid up to that.

 

I made the type size larger above in quotes for the answer to this question; what stops the auctioneer or the HA bidder from bidding beyond the reserve, or the official unpublished reserves set beforehand? The answer is personal honor, the decency of the individual person. In short, "there's just one little problem. It's called Human Nature."

 

Another words, I accept that legally HA can "help" sellers by bidding up to a reserve, and HA can bid on its behalf for the sales division. But that doesn't reduce the worry or the possibility that those HA employees will do something unethical, due to "Human Nature."

 

What happens if a book is at $1200 total, the reserve is $1400, and the increment is $100? Will the auctioneer bid $1300 as a natural next increment bid, or can they bid $1350, which forces the other bidder to bid $50 over the reserve? The numbers are just relative, my example is intended to be one where the difference between a current bid(single bidder) and the reserve is greater than one increment but less than two increments. The auctioneer ethically should only bid the minimum amount needed to get the next bid to the reserve, and not beyond it.

[trmoore54]

There is a DIFFERENCE between "shill" bidding and bidding on behalf of a minimum reserve. If notice is not given to the bidders that the "right to bid" by the seller or other authorized agent (the agent may be the auctioneer or a staff member), then it is illegal and that is the definition of Shilling.

 

Now, it's apparent that you may not have read Heritage's Terms & Conditions, as they Do Disclose the right for such bidding in those Terms. Therefore, it is NOT shilling.

 

Concerning the comment about "starting at the minimum"..."there's just one little problem. It's called Human Nature."

 

 

Most of the time, when an auctioneer discloses the minimum and asks for bids, everyone "sits on their hands" (won't bid). I've even seen those that will call out a lower bid, after I've told them what the MINIMUM bid is... now, one might wonder, do they think you'll sell it to them anyway?

 

One might wonder that because you started the bidding below the reserve. Why not start at the minimum? I ask rhetorically, already knowing the answer--it's a game to generate interest. Can't mentally fault bidders with a for playing the silly little game that's been set up for them to play--that's just a bizarre thing to fault them for.

 

Under the law, can the seller or authorized agent bid beyond the minimum reserve?

 

I wasn't going to post anything, but you just brought up the underlying question the laws bring to my mind.

 

Regarding HA, because they list in their terms and conditions that they can and will bid in their own auctions, it is legal for HA or the auctioneer to bid in the HA auctions. HA states(in those reports of the court cases, referenced above) that they will set a price before an auction that they will pay for an item, and presumably bid up to that.

 

I made the type size larger above in quotes for the answer to this question; what stops the auctioneer or the HA bidder from bidding beyond the reserve, or the official unpublished reserves set beforehand? The answer is personal honor, the decency of the individual person. In short, "there's just one little problem. It's called Human Nature."

 

Another words, I accept that legally HA can "help" sellers by bidding up to a reserve, and HA can bid on its behalf for the sales division. But that doesn't reduce the worry or the possibility that those HA employees will do something unethical, due to "Human Nature."

 

What happens if a book is at $1200 total, the reserve is $1400, and the increment is $100? Will the auctioneer bid $1300 as a natural next increment bid, or can they bid $1350, which forces the other bidder to bid $50 over the reserve? The numbers are just relative, my example is intended to be one where the difference between a current bid(single bidder) and the reserve is greater than one increment but less than two increments. The auctioneer ethically should only bid the minimum amount needed to get the next bid to the reserve, and not beyond it.

 

Exactly! Well-stated my friend!

[TexasAuctioneer-migration]

There is a DIFFERENCE between "shill" bidding and bidding on behalf of a minimum reserve. If notice is not given to the bidders that the "right to bid" by the seller or other authorized agent (the agent may be the auctioneer or a staff member), then it is illegal and that is the definition of Shilling.

 

Now, it's apparent that you may not have read Heritage's Terms & Conditions, as they Do Disclose the right for such bidding in those Terms. Therefore, it is NOT shilling.

 

Concerning the comment about "starting at the minimum"... there's just one little problem. It's called Human Nature.

 

Most of the time, when an auctioneer discloses the minimum and asks for bids, everyone "sits on their hands" (won't bid). I've even seen those that will call out a lower bid, after I've told them what the MINIMUM bid is... now, one might wonder, do they think you'll sell it to them anyway?

 

One might wonder that because you started the bidding below the reserve. Why not start at the minimum? I ask rhetorically, already knowing the answer--it's a game to generate interest. Can't mentally fault bidders with a for playing the silly little game that's been set up for them to play--that's just a bizarre thing to fault them for.

 

Under the law, can the seller or authorized agent bid beyond the minimum reserve?

I thought I explained why most auctioneers allow bidders to "start" where-ever they wish. Who's really playing games? The bidders typically know what it's worth and hoping they'll get a steal of a deal, although they also know how much they'll actually pay. So, they sit there and do nothing (even if the auctioneer TELLS them the minimum reserved price), until the asking bid seems to be too good to be true... then the bidding begins.

 

Part of the problem is that thing called human nature. If you tell people what the minimum price is, it's like they automatically think it's too high, no matter how reasonable it may be. Yet, if they are allow to use their own judgment, reasonable reserves are usually met or exceeded. It sorta like they don't want someone telling them how much it should sell for (at a minimum), as though it's an insult to their intelligence (or maybe they think it's the Seller that's dumb for setting a minimum).

 

Either way, it's kinda like people referring to legally disclosed bidding as "shilling." I guess it makes them feel like they know how it should be done, while finding someone to blame for misconceived wrongs... when actually, if they were the Seller and wanted "protection" from a bad day at the auction, they would blame the auctioneer if they weren't allowed to put a reserve on the item and it sold too cheap.

 

Like most things... it usually depends on which side of the stadium you're sitting in, but the referee is likely to get the blame.

 

To answer your question regarding THE LAW.

There are two ways that minimums can be bid (as long as it's properly disclosed).

1. The Seller is allowed to bid.

2. A Seller's Agent (typically the auctioneer or staff member) bids on behalf of the reserve.

 

The problem with option #1: The Seller can try to judge the bidders and bid until they feel the price is high enough to sell. In such cases, only the Seller knows how much (or little) they will accept. This can also present additional problems... the Seller may have been talking to buyers prior to the sale (or just overheard someone talking) and learn what one might be willing to pay, therefore they know how much they could bid against them.

 

This is the primary reason for option #2. The Seller discloses their minimum to the auctioneer (usually in the contract) and the auctioneer bids on behalf of the Seller's minimum reserve. Once it hits the reserve, the auctioneer would not continue bidding. So, the only way the reserve would be exceeded is if there are two bidders that continue to bid. Of course, as long as there are two bidders bidding, the auctioneer has no need to bid, anyway.

 

Most auctioneers usually prefer option #2, as it keeps things fair for everyone involved.

 

Jim

[TexasAuctioneer-migration]

There is a DIFFERENCE between "shill" bidding and bidding on behalf of a minimum reserve. If notice is not given to the bidders that the "right to bid" by the seller or other authorized agent (the agent may be the auctioneer or a staff member), then it is illegal and that is the definition of Shilling.

 

Now, it's apparent that you may not have read Heritage's Terms & Conditions, as they Do Disclose the right for such bidding in those Terms. Therefore, it is NOT shilling.

 

Concerning the comment about "starting at the minimum"..."there's just one little problem. It's called Human Nature."

 

 

Most of the time, when an auctioneer discloses the minimum and asks for bids, everyone "sits on their hands" (won't bid). I've even seen those that will call out a lower bid, after I've told them what the MINIMUM bid is... now, one might wonder, do they think you'll sell it to them anyway?

 

One might wonder that because you started the bidding below the reserve. Why not start at the minimum? I ask rhetorically, already knowing the answer--it's a game to generate interest. Can't mentally fault bidders with a for playing the silly little game that's been set up for them to play--that's just a bizarre thing to fault them for.

 

Under the law, can the seller or authorized agent bid beyond the minimum reserve?

 

I wasn't going to post anything, but you just brought up the underlying question the laws bring to my mind.

 

Regarding HA, because they list in their terms and conditions that they can and will bid in their own auctions, it is legal for HA or the auctioneer to bid in the HA auctions. HA states(in those reports of the court cases, referenced above) that they will set a price before an auction that they will pay for an item, and presumably bid up to that.

 

I made the type size larger above in quotes for the answer to this question; what stops the auctioneer or the HA bidder from bidding beyond the reserve, or the official unpublished reserves set beforehand? The answer is personal honor, the decency of the individual person. In short, "there's just one little problem. It's called Human Nature."

 

Another words, I accept that legally HA can "help" sellers by bidding up to a reserve, and HA can bid on its behalf for the sales division. But that doesn't reduce the worry or the possibility that those HA employees will do something unethical, due to "Human Nature."

 

What happens if a book is at $1200 total, the reserve is $1400, and the increment is $100? Will the auctioneer bid $1300 as a natural next increment bid, or can they bid $1350, which forces the other bidder to bid $50 over the reserve? The numbers are just relative, my example is intended to be one where the difference between a current bid(single bidder) and the reserve is greater than one increment but less than two increments. The auctioneer ethically should only bid the minimum amount needed to get the next bid to the reserve, and not beyond it.

There lies the real problem, my friend. You automatically assume that others are not ethical and out to screw you.

 

While there are a few unethical people in EVERY profession, most are honest and ethical... and that applies to those in my profession, as well.

 

If the book is at $1200 and the bidding increments had been running at $100, then the auctioneer would typically stay with the current bid increments. Otherwise, someone will probably claim that he/she unethically jumped the bid up, just to make them pay more.

 

Like I said... people just seem to try to find something wrong and look for someone to blame. If you don't trust a particular professional, then find one that you do trust and attend their auctions.

 

Jim

[Peter Loves Gwen]

Thanks for your replies and insight Jim. I'm not picking at any one group or your profession. I do scrutinize laws when I happen to come across the details for some reason. I learned a good bit from the previous links posted a page or two back. Thanks to those posters and the links.

 

The regulations regarding auction houses bidding, whether any auctioneer or the auction house, those need to be extremely clear and thoroughly publicized. I'm not saying the laws are wrong or bad, as I read them. I do wish it was more clearly stated by auction houses, exactly how they handle these issues, besides being buried in terms and conditions which few people read.

[TexasAuctioneer-migration]

Thanks for your replies and insight Jim. I'm not picking at any one group or your profession. I do scrutinize laws when I happen to come across the details for some reason. I learned a good bit from the previous links posted a page or two back. Thanks to those posters and the links.

 

The regulations regarding auction houses bidding, whether any auctioneer or the auction house, those need to be extremely clear and thoroughly publicized. I'm not saying the laws are wrong or bad, as I read them. I do wish it was more clearly stated by auction houses, exactly how they handle these issues, besides being buried in terms and conditions which few people read.

Don,

Actually you bring up another good point, when it comes to that human nature thing.

 

The vast majority of people don't usually take the time to even read the terms and conditions. By the same token, I have also found that they don't listen when I'm reading over them prior to my auctions, either!

 

I can't count the number of times that I've had to stop in the middle of the auction to answer someone's question, because they didn't read or listen.

 

Of course, prior to this profession, I was an instructor for a Fortune 500 corporation for over 12-years and I already knew that people don't pay much attention when someone one is trying to explain things.

 

We're all adults and with that comes responsibility for our own actions (or lack of). Yet, most people don't even read the contracts they sign when buying a car or a home. They just fill in their name and address and sign on the dotted line. Well, when they sign on that line when registering for my auctions, they should read that strongly-bolded statement just above their signature, as they are proclaiming that they have "read and understand the Terms and Conditions" for the auction. (Do you think they really did? Nope.)

 

Just hope that I can help a few more understand how auctions work... instead of allowing for more myths and misguided perceptions.

 

Jim

 

 

[Peter Loves Gwen]

 

Now if we could get some people to read the Constitution...

 

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