So how much work did Bob Kane actually do?

[Zonker]

Yah, but the Bronze Age forum is kinda dead, so we decided to move the party over here!

[Timulty]

You can kindly move it back to where you came from. Thank you.

[BR-migration]

None of the early writers (or even artists) did 100% of their own work all the time -- this isn't always an act of injustice, just the sheer practicalities of putting out a serial periodical -- the 'shops' were how the industry (even before comics) worked then, so it is natural that it carried over. These men (they 99% were) were great artists, surely, but their work was a job, not sitting in Paris and sketching passerby. Comics were economcally driven -- you can argue (not me) that all art is the same way. Was it fair that a lot of people didn't get credit? Of course not, but they got paid. And that's why we have people (like here) who seek them out and get their name out there.

 

That being said, the little touches of FF, Spidey, and X-men read like Lee -- who else would take the Clark Kent character and decide to make him a TEENAGER who is *really* awkward around girls? Brilliant. Esp. the women characters, because they are all so similar. Stan Lee knows his audience.

 

But you're right (forget who said it) all of these creators' origin stories are carefully crafted fictions that change over time, even Joe and Jerry's. You just can't trust comics creators : )

 

BR

www.lastson.greendoorfilms.com

[mica]

You can kindly move it back to where you came from. Thanks you.

To me the times fade into each other and shouldn't really be seperated with strict obstacles. (except when we get to the 90's )

This expansion of thought is OK in my opinion, but I can see where you might get a little nervous if we start chatting about Howard the Duck

[Timulty]

That would make it a general discussion, now wouldn't it? As opposed to one centering on factors that influenced the Golden Age of Comic and the events that transpired during. I would prefer to have the Stan and Steve show glut up the Silver Age boards. Though, I see where it is indeed tangentially related.

[mica]

That would make it a general discussion, now wouldn't it? As opposed to one centering on factors that influenced the Golden Age of Comic and the events that transpired during. I would prefer to have the Stan and Steve show glut up the Silver Age boards. Though, I see where it is indeed tangentially related.

It's not like we're talking about Hezikiah Handlebars printed on papyrus leafs.

[BLBcomics-migration]

I hear you, but I don't think you can dismiss 'words-smithing' on early issues. The dialogue/story concepts of the early issues shape the character forever

Exactly. I think a character is much more than a nifty costume and some general initial concept (guy with spider powers, Norse thunder god, etc.).

 

I don't know why it needs to be a 100% or nothing issue. Why can't we just agree that Stan Lee and Kirby, or Lee and Ditko, were the co-creators? Each contributed critical elements to making the characters what they were, and most importantly of all, to making them successful. After the first couple of albums, everything Lennon & McCartney wrote was 98-100% Lennon or 98-100% McCartney, but everything they wrote was credited to Lennon-McCartney because there was a creative dynamic that existed with the two of them, even when one wasn't involved in any way with a song that the other wrote.

 

And Bob, my question about you reading the 4th World books was rhetorical. I was pretty sure that you had. And why not, they were cool characters with a great concept, just not written very well.

 

Oh, i know you know i read the Kirby stuff, we all did back then, Marvel or DC, and collected his earlier stuff back to ahem, the Golden Age (getting back on topic thread kinda) Capt America, Boy Commandos, Sandman, Newsboy Legion, etc with some of us venturing into his short strips in Famous Funnies, Lone Rider(?), etc

 

From my perspective, and it is just my opine here, when comic books are done the "Marvel Way", the story is "written" in sequential form - the characters are all doing their thing, and when the "writer" comes along and adds in dialogue, that is a bit more than mere "plotting" on the artist creator's part

 

I agree with a previous writer here that FF is too much like Challs of the Unknown in concept to have much Stan Lee creationism in play here

 

Now Stan Lee dialoguing, i will agree with you and every one else 100% that was Stan Lee driven - but not the creating of the story which takes a bunch of story telling art panels to be any good to begin with.

 

And i reiterate that I think Kirby was burned out by the time he got back to DC the 3rd time in 1970 - he and Simon had been financially buried when their Mainline comics company went under in early 1955, they resurrected for a bit, then split apart, with Kirby pouring his heart & soul into building Marvel in the early 60s

 

Both he and Ditko were promised royalties - something Kirby had been used to most of his pro comics life

 

When the lies promised did not pan out, Ditko split in 1966, trying to take Kirby with him, Ditko told us on the phone this back in 1969 when we called him up - his number is still in the NYC phone book last i checked with a studio off Times Square

 

Lee is quoted in a 1966 NY news paper article that all he does is suggest to Kirby what villain is this month, and Kirby takes it from there. It is illuminating, this news paper article

 

Later on, soon thereafter, Stan Lee's origin story tunes begin to radically alter - as i kept up with all comic book news starting in 1965, clipping and saving the articles as i saw them

 

Bob Kane lied a lot as well concerning his commentary drawing all that Batman stuff we all know he did not do

 

It is all about the money which ownership grants higher portions to

[adamstrange]

Yah, but the Bronze Age forum is kinda dead, so we decided to move the party over here!

 

[ciorac]

hi Bill

 

Moldoff began working for Kane in 1939, i know him also and talked with him a lot as well

 

Irwin Donenfeld read the original art in the DC offices before it was printed in 1939 and went to work for his dad following college

 

Julie Schwartz came along to AA i believe in 1944, way after creation, and then did not coem into DC proper until after Gaines sold out, and Julie followed with his boss Mayer into DC

 

I would tend to follow Moldoff and Irwin before following Julie in this instance - they were "there" as were Jerry Robinson as well as Finger's words along with Jerry Bail's research

 

Finger's creative juices were much more in play than Bob Kane's - Spock Logic Fact

 

Did Kane have input, of course he did, but not as much as HE said so no matter what how much he protested any body else's involvement - he was alsways saying he did the art when it is so obvious he did not - so, one takes that BIG lie and work your way backwards to 1939

 

One needs to go back to the 1960s when the Jerry & Joe Show was trying to win back the copy right renewal on Superman then after 28 years were up

 

I repeat: Stan was fronting for his Unca Martin Goodman, in effect lying that he did all the creating, in effect dissing any of the creative artists - this is so obvious i wonder why and how you can question that - they did not want ownership issues coming up when it came time to sell marvel which happened in 1968 and/or copy right renewal fights

 

Go back and READ what Stan was saying in the 1960s and then how his "origin" stories changed as years went by - his famous "memory lapses" are due to he could not keep all those lies straight any more

 

Face Front, Fearless One, and smell the coffee

 

No sweat. Believe what you want. I will believe what I want. There it is.

 

I have yet to get to know any of the long time creators in this industry whose stories haven't changed over the years, Kane, Lee, Kirby, Moldoff, Robinson, Finger, Cole, Starlin for crying out loud. Heck I can't remember with utter clarity everything I've done or haven't done in my life either.

 

I'd rather appreciate them all for what they gave us, whatever their role was in the creative process. "Hating" on Stan and Bob now is counter productive.

 

If Kane played any role at all in creating Batman then I love him for it. Plain and simple. Part of being successful is being smart, and knowing how to take advantage of any situation you are in and exploiting it for your own personal gain.

 

If Robinson, Finger, and Kirby were either dumb enough, or too timid to do anything about their situation then they got what they deserved. Plain and simple. If you go through life blaming others for your lack of success, that's a cop out. Everyone is personally responsible for what they do or don't succeed at in life, by and large..physical handicaps, mental or emotional issues aside of course.

 

Stan Lee may not have created all of the Marvel characters he claimed to, but he darn sure played a major role. Only the sourest of grape eaters say otherwise. Period, end of story, deluding yourself otherwise is idiotic.

 

"Unca Martin" wouldn't know a comic book if it hit him in he arse. So fronting for him wouldn't have made them the largest comic seller for three decades.

 

So chill out Bob, and enjoy the fruits of ALL of their labor...

[Aman619]

Its ironic that Bob Kane is criticized after being one of a very small list of comics creators to ever OUTSMART the publishers! He beat them at their own game. The same qualities that enabled him to demand and receive an ironclad contract to supply Batman comics, was also the same mindset behind creating a studio/business to produce the comics with him as merely CEO and the employees doing most or nearly all of the work itself.

 

Sure beats getting screwed by Lebowitz et al, though, of course, it might be a happier story all around if he could or would have given proper recognition to his "employees" for their sake.

[BLBcomics-migration]

me chill out

 

oh, i am very chilled

 

I simply am compiling a history of the business of comics

 

and it has a lot of warts

 

and we must not forget to throw the baby out with the bath water

 

and i am not the only person who sees the truth for what it is - and was

[BLBcomics-migration]

Its ironic that Bob Kane is criticized after being one of a very small list of comics creators to ever OUTSMART the publishers! He beat them at their own game. The same qualities that enabled him to demand and receive an ironclad contract to supply Batman comics, was also the same mindset behind creating a studio/business to produce the comics with him as merely CEO and the employees doing most or nearly all of the work itself.

 

Sure beats getting screwed by Lebowitz et al, though, of course, it might be a happier story all around if he could or would have given proper recognition to his "employees" for their sake.

 

My understanding is Bob Kane's father negotiated the contract for his son who was still a very young man

 

I would not say that Bob Kane hisself was the out smarter person - rather, he reaped the benefits of what dad got for him

 

and some where along that path, Bill Finer was forgotten

 

Also, in the series of interview i conducted with Irwin Donenfeld, we discussed Bob Kane as well as Jerry & Joe

 

irwin said he never knew Bob Kane was not drawing all that Bat stuff until much later. Kane always showed up, delivered art, picked up checks, month in, month out. In the mid 1960s Irwin learned the extent of Finger's key involvement in creating Batman, and sai it was a shame Finger never got the recognition in his life time, much less the further extended financial rewards

 

Jerry & Joe, Irwin said, got their contract re-negotiated in 1940 to reflect the Kane version, were paid over half a million dollars each in the ten year duration 1938-1948. Royalties were also paid big time to the Simon & Kirby team, with S&K ads running in the DCs beginning in 1942, the first time a creative teams names were used to promote the comic books they had stuff in.

with books like Boy Commandos 1 and 2 being the largest sellers for DC when they came out

 

In addition, Jerry & Joe got ALL the substantial money from the Superman newspaper syndication plus ALL the money from the Fleischer animated cartoons - which was in addition to the royalties paid by DC National

 

Irwin was adamant Jerry & Joe would have been taken care for life like Kane was if they had not sued the Donenfelds following WW2 over Superboy which soon escalated to an attempt to wrest total control of Superman away from the publisher who had taken the bigger risk publishing Action in the first place. #4 was hitting the stands before final sales figures were in on #1. for example

[ciorac]

me chill out

 

oh, i am very chilled

 

I simply am compiling a history of the business of comics

 

and it has a lot of warts

 

and we must not forget to throw the baby out with the bath water

 

and i am not the only person who sees the truth for what it is - and was

 

You are the one throwing the baby out with the bath water. I am willing to give credit to all who played a role in creating our heroes. You are the one who won't

 

Why is it that everything that comes out of your mouth is

"the Truth", and anyone who disagrees with you is wrong? Odd.

 

I'll call Shelly Moldoff this weekend and ask him to repeat to me what he knew about Kane and his drawing Batman, and his role in creating Batman. Shelly may have gotten on Batman in 1939 but he was at DC long before that. Just pop open your Action #1 reprint and you will see his signed work inside of it. He was there when it all went down, he would know better than you Bob. He has no agenda, no reason to lie, is one of the nicest, most honest creators I have ever met. I have known Kirby, Lee, Kane, Frazetta, Nodell and others to stretch the truth considerably because the were bitter and felt slighted.

 

Others who were there in the Lee days recall with utter clarity when Lee would come up with plots for the new stories, practically acting them out in the office, while Kirby started roughing out the panels. Later, Lee added dialog. Face it Bob, you can hate Lee all you want, but you can attribute a good portion of your life's income to what he did within the pages of his books and for being an ambassador and spokesperson for comics in general. A little respect for the man would be in order I would say. Shame on you for continuing to trash an American Icon.

[BLBcomics-migration]

what?

 

i do not hate Lee, Kane, and any other comics creator

- you are placing words here i have not written

- shame on you for exaggerating my words

 

I have not written here that either Kane or Lee had nothing to do with the comics business and/or co-creating best selling comics scenarios but they had a lot less to do with the creations than they have stated in comicons and/or in print. That is a simple fact, no trash

 

i have been working on an impartial history of the comics business

 

i stress impartial

 

Most assuredly he was "an ambassador and spokesperson for comics in general," but Lee fronted for the owner of Marvel, claiming more than he created. Ownership of copyright was all about money, promises of royalties were made which never followed thru on.

 

It is a fact of history that Goodman also made promises of royalties on the sales of Captain America beginning in 1941 - also never followed thru on. That is why Simon & Kirby left first for MLJ and then soon thereafter went on to DC National where they were paid royalties beyond the simple page rate.

 

History repeated itself in the 1960s

 

history is history - and it has warts

[mica]

I thought IRVING FORBUSH did it all?

[chrisco37]

I thought IRVING FORBUSH did it all?

 

Auf Wiedersehen!

[Norrin_Radd]

It is a fact of history that Goodman also made promises of royalties on the sales of Captain America beginning in 1941 - also never followed thru on. That is why Simon & Kirby left first for MLJ and then soon thereafter went on to DC National where they were paid royalties beyond the simple page rate.

 

I got really into GA Captain America earlier this year and did a ton of research online about the character's history. Here is an excerpt about the early days.

 

 

"So Simon and Kirby, influenced by current events, created a new character, one who would embody the patriotism that the Timely staff felt. They came up with Captain America. (Who exactly created him seems to be in dispute. Joe Simon claims that he came up with the idea for a patriotic hero, and did the first sketch. Jack Kirby claims that he co-created the character, with Simon.)

 

It should be noted that Captain America was actually created the previous fall, but Simon and Kirby, entertaining offers from Timely's rivals, had had Goodman over a barrel and had managed to get an agreement from him: Simon would get 15% of the profits from the sales of Captain America Comics, and Kirby would get 10%. Such an agreement, needless to say, was unknown in comics at the time.

 

Captain America was not the first patriotic superhero in comics. That was Irv Novick's The Shield, who appeared in MLJ's Pep Comics, starting in November or December 1939 (Pep Comics #1 had a January 1940 cover date).

 

Naturally, MLJ, seeing similarities between the Shield and Captain America, were upset, and threatened Timely with a lawsuit; a central part of their claim was that Captain America's triangular shield made him look like the Shield, who had a triangular shield on the front of his costume. Goodman decided not to argue the point; he must have been aware of DC's 1939 lawsuit of Fox Comics. DC had sued Fox over Fox's character Wonderman, claiming that Wonderman was a theft of Superman. It was, and Fox lost.

 

This precedent must have occurred to Goodman, who, after meeting with John Goldwater, the publisher of MLJ's comics, agreed to change the shield, something that Kirby, for one, was happy about (he'd always preferred the round shield as being both more effective and a better design). At the end of the meeting Goldwater tried to hire Simon & Kirby away from Timely - something that did not sit well with Martin Goodman at all.

 

Very soon after Captain America #1 was published Timely hired Syd Shores to help with the inking. He became Timely's third employee. It was at this time that Jack Kirby was made art director for Timely.

 

Towards the end of 1941 Simon and Kirby had done ten issues of Captain America and made him Timely's most popular book; it was selling on a level only Superman and Batman could touch. Simon and Kirby were not, however, pleased with Timely. Both Simon and Kirby were acting as editors and art directors, and between those jobs and their work - not only for Timely, but for other companies (Kirby and Simon were continuing to work on Blue Bolt, for one) - their schedules were quite busy - Kirby was doing up to nine pages a day. Worse still, from their point of view, they were getting relatively little money, despite the popularity of Captain America Comics.

 

Then Morris Coyne, Timely's accountant, let Simon & Kirby know that, despite their contract with Goodman - the one they'd made before they agreed to do Captain America - they still weren't getting their proper share of the book's profits, and that Goodman had been misleading them. (Coyne's reason for telling Simon and Kirby this was simple: he had holdings in the MLJ line of comics, and most likely thought that, if Simon & Kirby left Timely, they'd go to MLJ - whose publisher, John Goldwater, had once already tried to lure the pair away from Timely, during the meeting over the shape of Captain America's shield)

 

Naturally, Simon and Kirby were unhappy about this. They immediately got in touch with Jack Liebowitz, the publisher of National Comics. Liebowitz jumped at the chance to employ the pair, and he offered to double their salaries, to $500 a week. (To put this in prospective, the median salary, in 1941, was $2000 a year) Simon & Kirby agreed, continuing their work for Timely during the day while secretly doing pages for National at night.

 

Stan Lee grew suspicious and started investigating, quizzing Simon & Kirby and finally tailing them to the hotel where they worked on their pages for National. He grilled them on what they were doing, and after they swore him to secrecy they told him about their impending move to National.

 

Lee went to his uncle, Martin Goodman, and told him about Simon & Kirby's imminent departure. Goodman confronted the pair, and when they confessed, he fired them. We can only wonder how comics would have turned out had Goodman paid Simon and Kirby as they deserved; while we would never have seen their Guardian, the Sandman, the Newsboy Legion, the Boy Commandos, and the other characters they did for National and other companies, in all likelihood they would have produced work of equal or higher value for Timely.

 

With the departure of Simon and Kirby Timely was left without an Editor-in-Chief and an Art Director. Stan Lee took over both positions, completing his move from the bottom of the company, as gopher, to almost the top in less than a year's time."

 

 

"The Timely Comics Story" by Jess Nevins

 

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Olympus/7160/Timely1.htm

[BLBcomics-migration]

I thought IRVING FORBUSH did it all?

 

so how many of you have copies of SNAFU 1 and 2 published in 1955 which contains the first appearance of Irving Forbush ??

 

#1 is pretty good containing neat work by Heath Severin Everett Maneely

 

- Irving being Marvel's answer to Alfred E Neuman?

[BLBcomics-migration]

Well done, a good read, factual and impartial

 

a few things to add to your research if i may:

 

1) Martin Goodman worked with/under Louis Silberkleit (The L of MLJ) for Hugo Gernsback's Amazing Stories, Science & Invention, etc company beginning in 1927 in the circulation dept - you might want to expand into that previous connection. Martin said in the past this is where he learned about color etc for covers, how to make title names short & staccato. Gernsback macro and micro influence on later comic books is to be further investigated

 

2) S&K did work for MLJ for a very SHORT while, with Kirby doing the cover to PEP #17 before heading on to DC National for that much better deal

 

3) my understanding is Stanley Lieber was 17 years old when he wrote that text story which appeared in Capt America #3 - so his was maybe 18 when he trailed S&K to where they were doing the National stuff - and very much loyal to his unca Martin

 

4) speculation here, but Marvel would have published Boy Commandos if they had not been lied to regarding Martin (and whoever else in the Goodman family) and promises made of royalties on CA. S&K kept getting told the book was not doing very well, when they knew better. Irwin Donenfeld told me that Boy Commandos 1 and 2 were the best selling DC comics for their time slot

 

5) S&K continued to receive royalties on Boy Commandos even after being drafted and Kirby was overseas - those royalty checks kept coming

 

hope some of these tidbits help

[markseifert]

 

My understanding is Bob Kane's father negotiated the contract for his son who was still a very young man

 

I would not say that Bob Kane hisself was the out smarter person - rather, he reaped the benefits of what dad got for him

 

Very interesting tidbit. I too have sort of assumed over the years that Kane was a very astute businessman because of his deal with DC, but what you say about his father's involvement makes sense given his age (early 20's?) at the time.