So how much work did Bob Kane actually do?

[Shield]

Well done, a good read, factual and impartial

 

a few things to add to your research if i may:

 

1) Martin Goodman worked with/under Louis Silberkleit (The L of MLJ) for Hugo Gernsback's Amazing Stories, Science & Invention, etc company beginning in 1927 in the circulation dept - you might want to expand into that previous connection. Martin said in the past this is where he learned about color etc for covers, how to make title names short & staccato. Gernsback macro and micro influence on later comic books is to be further investigated

 

2) S&K did work for MLJ for a very SHORT while, with Kirby doing the cover to PEP #17 before heading on to DC National for that much better deal

 

Well, well. Just got around to reading this thread. Bob, here's some things to ADD to your research.

 

Irving Novick drew the cover to Pep #17, not Kirby. Time for your history lesson, Bob. See, now you're in my backyard with MLJ issues. See down at the bottom of Pep #17, where it reads "Comics' Newest Sensation...The Hangman"? Go here for a closer look:

 

http://images.heritagecoin.com/images/HNAI/300/752/752024127o.jpg

 

You'll see the first "N" for Novick that was covered up by the logo. Of course, if you knew MLJ books better you'd be able to easily identifiy Novick's work from that period. The only MLJ cover drawn by S&K to my knowledge was Shield Wizard #7.

 

That would put S&K doing work at MLJ a bit later than May 1941 (When Pep #17, with a July 1941 issue hit the stands. Also, since S&K did Cap 1-10, they couldn't possibly have done Pep #17 around the time Cap #4 was released, now could they?)

 

P.S. Shield-Wizard #7 is cover dated Summer 1942, which would logically be a few short months after Cap #11 hit the stands.

 

End of History lesson.

 

Hope some of these tidbits help!

 

Your pal,

Shawn

[BLBcomics-migration]

thanks for the history lesson

 

The point was S&K did a pit stop for a very short period of time of a couple weeks in-between Timely and ending up at DC National.

 

S&K have said this in the past and that one cover was drawn before cutting a deal moving to DC National which brought us Boy Commandos, Newsboy Legion, Sandman revamp and Manhunter.

 

The Pep 17 reference i read somewhere, having not owned one since having the Tom Reilly copy. And what i had read by some one else mentioned that it was a Kirby cover, no Simon on it. Glad some one is a MLJ expert in this Fahrenheit 451 world.

 

Overstreet puts the S-W #7 as S&K-cover with a ?

[Shield]

It's S&K for sure, the Sheild-Wizard #7.

 

Note the similarities with what I call "Skinny-legged superheroes":

 

 

[BLBcomics-migration]

oh, i believe the S-W #7 to be Kirby, that was not in dispute by me, i can tell artists when i look at the art, having looked at Gerber's Photo-Journal Guide already

 

What i point out here is OPG sez it with uncertainty - some one should inform them to take out the question mark

 

now i have to figure out where i read the Pep 17 reference at, as it is a real one,

[Koko]

Bob b. wrote:

My understanding is the CA thing was promises made, S&K were lied to, they did bail, but only because they were offered a better deal, first from MLJ (less than a month), then a 50-50 profit split with DC National, which they enjoyed the entire run of Boy Commandos and Newsboy Legion

 

* I doubt that MLJ was more than a quick stop-over, and that Simon might have been using it as a lever to get National to ante-up. "Yea, MLJ snapped us up, but we're only now talking about contracts."

 

Kirby came back to work for DC National following WW2

 

* Due to govenment regulations which ensured returning G.I.s would have their jobs waiting.

 

Once Simon got back, they got a better deal offer from Crestwood, is my understanding, DC National publishers got pissed, stopped talking to Simon, and S&K went off to Crestwood as well as Harvey

 

* Not quite. While in the service Harvey offered S&K a 50/50 split on profits done on their Comics. The post-War glut killed Stuntman and Boy Explorers. From there they went to Hillman, and finally Crestwood in 1947.

 

There is a short period there where Kirby is doing covers & stuff on Newsboy Legion and Boy Commandos, no Simon. Kirby followed Simon to Crestwood, he had no problem getting work from DC following WW2 - where are you getting your data Kirby had a 40s DC National problem?

 

* See above.

 

i am still a little unsure on the exact time line here, i have it is notes i placed some where and need to re-find, as i did ask Simon on some of this stuff when i interviewed him for my Mainline article in Jack Kirby Collector 25 Special S&K issue in the late 1990s

 

 

--------------------

Robert Beerbohm Comic Art

[Koko]

Sorry, too quick in the draw.

Greg Theakston

Pure IMAGINATION

[Koko]

Bob,

I don't believe Kirby is in the S/W cover at all. Solo Simon is my call.

Regards,

GT

[tth2]

Sorry, too quick in the draw.

Greg Theakston

Pure IMAGINATION

There's an "edit" button you can use to fix errors in previous posts.

[Koko]

Back to the topic of the thread....

Yes, I worked for Bob Kane for the last five years of his life (Scrooge's last ghost always comes to mind.)

Kane would send me his drawing on a large piece of illustration board and I would ink and finish it. I had no doubt that he actually drew the work: It was clearly his style, and naive in all of the right places. Those prints were HIS work, and while finishing (and correcting) the art I began to have a greater appreciation for his talent. Not great, but he did have some skill. The shame is, that Kane had a big hit, and got lazy. If he had applied himself, and worked hard on Batman, I'm certain that he would have become a better artist. It was just too easy to let somebody else do it and take his cut.

In terms of the studio work, my guess is that he has some voice in how the stuff was being turned out, at least in the start, and here is where the email turns to Stan.

Many have berated Stan for not having a better post-Marvel track-record (sombody shouts "Striparella" from the back of the room), but I have to say, Stan didn't seem to care much about the '50s stuff either, and I believe that to be the key here. The '60s seem to be the only time Stan was really enthused about his work, after that he got famous and lazy. Like Kane.

In terms of creating characters at Marvel, we have to swing the fan-boy telescope around and look at this from the other end. In the early 1960s, especially at the size-limited Marvel, new titles came from the top, frequently starting with the distributor's suggestions. Goodman saw that the hero trend was hot and instructed Stan to come up with a team book, including The Human Torch, Martin's good-luck charm. Had Kirby brought the team to Lee it would have looked very different. I also believe that Lee came up with the name (used in many incarnations before that,) and especially the idea that he was a teen. The Hulk was a result of Goodman's buzz-word theory. It must have sold books, because no less than four stories feature characters with that name before the green guy showed up. An ant-sized man made sales, so Stan was instructed to come up with a character based on him. All of this early stuff starts at the top and works its way down to Kirby and Ditko, not the other way around.

In terms of the FF and Challengers appearing alike, I just don't buy it. Challs were just a bunch of guys in jump-suits, doomed to mediocrity once Kirby left. Yes, they all have identical body-suits, but that's where the similarity ends for me.

In terms of writing stories, Stan's hands were involved in every story for the first twenty-five issues of his titles. As late as FF #8 Stan was plotting the action on four typed pages, with Kirby fleshing it out. The plot, of course, was hashed-out by both men in conference. After that, he always had something to say about the direction of the title, and who would appear. Jack wanted to send The Thing out West for three solo adventures, but Stan nixed the idea and had him kidnapped by inter-galactic gangsters to battle aliens for their pleasure. And that was well into the run.

On the flip-side, I have a memo from Stan whis says something like "Dr. Doom meets Surfer, get's his board somehow." And we all know what came of that "suggestion." I don't know if there was a post-memo plot session (I would think there was,) but this shows Lee was hands-on in the direction of the titles well into the '60s.

 

There are lots of comments I could make on the first 19 pages of this thread, but that would take forever.

Regards,

GT

[adamstrange]

There are lots of comments I could make on the first 19 pages of this thread, but that would take forever.

 

We're patient.

 

I know you're a part of comics history as well as one its recorders and appreciate it whenever you do get a chance to post.

[Juswuh]

...Jack wanted to send The Thing out West for three solo adventures, but Stan nixed the idea and had him kidnapped by inter-galactic gangsters to battle aliens for their pleasure. And that was well into the run...

 

That's interesting, because the FF "Skrull gangster planet" storyline is often cited as an example of Kirby's declining interest/inspiration in the late 60s - with the implication that it was largely his idea. (It was FF #90-93, so close to the end of the Lee/Kirby run.)

[batman_fan]

Probably one of my all time favorite Golden-Age covers (definitely in my top ten) is Star Spangled 7. Although it is somewhat simple in its composition, the image is just great. I actually really like S&Ks work on the Guardian and the Newsboy Legion. I also thought the stories were very entertaining. I personally love Kirby's work at Marvel, but this may be in large part because of the joy it gave me in my youth. I think it becomes hard to seperate the two (I wonder if my 4 year old with have the same sense of appriciation for the Wiggles when he is 40).

[TheWatcher]

Bob,

I don't believe Kirby is in the S/W cover at all. Solo Simon is my call.

Regards,

GT

 

I believe you're mistaken, it's definitely Kirby. Here's a solo Simon cover, different from S/W #7

 

[BLBcomics-migration]

Bob b. wrote:

My understanding is the CA thing was promises made, S&K were lied to, they did bail, but only because they were offered a better deal, first from MLJ (less than a month), then a 50-50 profit split with DC National, which they enjoyed the entire run of Boy Commandos and Newsboy Legion

 

* I doubt that MLJ was more than a quick stop-over, and that Simon might have been using it as a lever to get National to ante-up. "Yea, MLJ snapped us up, but we're only now talking about contracts."

 

Kirby came back to work for DC National following WW2

 

* Due to govenment regulations which ensured returning G.I.s would have their jobs waiting.

 

Once Simon got back, they got a better deal offer from Crestwood, is my understanding, DC National publishers got pissed, stopped talking to Simon, and S&K went off to Crestwood as well as Harvey

 

* Not quite. While in the service Harvey offered S&K a 50/50 split on profits done on their Comics. The post-War glut killed Stuntman and Boy Explorers. From there they went to Hillman, and finally Crestwood in 1947.

 

There is a short period there where Kirby is doing covers & stuff on Newsboy Legion and Boy Commandos, no Simon. Kirby followed Simon to Crestwood, he had no problem getting work from DC following WW2 - where are you getting your data Kirby had a 40s DC National problem?

 

* See above.

 

i am still a little unsure on the exact time line here, i have it is notes i placed some where and need to re-find, as i did ask Simon on some of this stuff when i interviewed him for my Mainline article in Jack Kirby Collector 25 Special S&K issue in the late 1990s

 

 

--------------------

Robert Beerbohm Comic Art

 

Hi Greg,

 

If i might provide a synopsis as i remember, which might be off-base a little bit, not much as this thread started out focused on what Bob Kane brought to the table, as in what did he actually do inventing Batman and then thru the decades handling all those art chores. We even got to revisit Jerry Bails Finger article in Biljo White's mid 60s BATMANIA as well as Bob Kane's rebuttal. Jeez, i remember when that zine was a new arrival coming in the mail.

 

Bill Finger's contribs and his re-intro into the Batman origins mythos were a point of contention amongst the listers here in this thread. Obviously, Finger thought up a lions share of the various aspects of what made Batman cool to read.

 

Then we were discussing the Kane contract, the concept his father got the favorable language into said contract.

 

I threw in the concept of Jerry & Joe getting a contract re-vamp from National to place them in line with what Kane was receiving - while leaving Finger out of any rewards beyond writing page rates

 

DC was paying royalties to a number of creators in the 1940s, which is where we got S&K injected into this conversation, toss in a Ditko factor as well re Marvel & Spiderman origins

 

So, yes, i agree, you agree, MLJ was a pit stop, i said those very words earlier in this thread - how long the duration, i dunno, wasn't very long, we know. Makes sense if MLJ was a leverage maneuver to get DC National to kick up the offer.

 

I wasn't sure off the top of my head whether Harvey or Ctrestwood were first to offer the 50/50 split on perceived profits. Didn't want to spend the time looking up my files on it. Thanks for the time line fix.

 

So, to pull this back on topic in the GOLD thread section, what do you think of the Bob Kane and Bill Finger relationship?

 

Kane, towards the end of his life, acknowledged his high school buddy Bill Finger's contribs, but basicly screwed him over re Batman back when they would both have had fun with a steady revenue stream for thinking up such a cool character and surrounding environs.

 

This thread kind of morphed into a general discussion (to me, anyway) on what promises were made re royalties to creators who made their publisher masters rich.

 

What i wasn't doing here, per se, was an art ID project, though that is fun to do as well

[Foolkiller]

this thread is a great read

[BLBcomics-migration]

In his 1989 book BATMAN AND ME, Bob Kane says in his intro on page vi

 

"...my earliest recollections are of the pulp magazines which were a carryover from the latter part of the nineteenth century and attained their greatest popularity during the Great Depression. They helped establish the heroes and formulas which were the forerunners of the comic books....some of the first generation of those stalwart heroes were Frank Merriwell, Doc Savage, Nick Carter, The Boy Allies, Hopalong Cassidy....."

 

Bob Kane wrote about how much he loved the pulps, how much they inspired him

 

Then on page 43 he wrote about various Bat Man type characters in the pulps from Black Bat Detective Mysteries, Popular Detective etc in 1933 1934 and elsewhere

 

He sounds like Jerry Siegel claiming never to have seen Philip Wylie's The Gladiator when he also writes on page 43 "...I never saw any of these early bat characters..."

 

Bob Kane also discusses some of Bill Finger's contribs to creating Batman in this same chapter

[mica]

1934-1935 Bat-Bandit

[Koko]

 

The part about Kane being a shrewd businessman is definitely correct as he was the only person to ever really outsmart Jack Liebowitz. Managed to bluff Liebowitz into giving him partial ownership rights to Batman. Certainly not a very likeable person as he apparently stabbed Seigel and Shuster in the back as they were going after the Superman rights.

 

 

Kane, when I knew him was always clowning, fun, and sometimes embarrassing to be with. S&S called Kane and asked if he wanted to be part of their suit against DC. Kane decided to see if they won, and if so he'd mount his own suit. So "back-stabbing" is a bit harsh

 

 

One part of the Batman mythos that reflects Kane's life was that he was actually able to live out the lifestyle of Bruce Wayne in real life. Basically a wealthy man who was able to date models and Hollywood starlets. Totally selfish as he always looked out for himself at the expense of everybody else.

 

I don't see how a stready stream of freelance work could be considered selfish. Speaking first-hand, when you ghosted for Kane, Kane got the credit. Not really sure about how Finger initially felt about this, but he, and everybody else shouldn't be shocked when Kane claims creative ownership: He paid for it. Now, if somebody asks me if I painted his last six prints, I'd say "yes," but I have no problem with Kane claiming he did. That's what he paid for.

 

Greg Theakston

Pure Imagination

[Koko]

 

 

Yes, i have my opines, and ALL persons point at Bob Kane as a true SOB,

Bob B.

 

That's rather a blanket statement, don't you think?

I know one ghost who speaks glowingly of him.

Greg Theakston

Pure Imagination

[Koko]

 

 

I know you were kidding Bob, and Kane probably was a jerk, and a crook. But all that matters to me is he gave us all the Batman!! As you know, Bats is my "be all end all", so I have to have a soft spot in my heart for old Mr. Kane.

 

Hey, buddy, don't talk about my friend that way.

Regards,

Greg Theakston

Pure Imagination