Which one would you choose ???? 2 2

[Socratic Wonder]

There is one big difference between baseball cards and GOLDEN AGE comics -

scarcity. In general, the rarest cards have more examples than the equivilant comics. Certainly there is a bigger demand for sports cards, but when comparing the two certain allowances must be made. There are just plain more cards out there so resto is going to be a much bigger factor in determining price. Just like resto is a bigger factor for silver age than it is for golden age. Restored Action 1s and Detective 27s sell for a much bigger percentage of unrestored fair market value than do restored Amazing Fantasy 15s. Because of this, in my opinion, a golden age comic that in all other respects is one of or the nicest copy will not be monetarily hammered because it has one minor spot of glue on it. In the case of the More Fun 52, if you were to take a razor to it to remove the glue it would still be an awesome copy. But who in their right mind would ever advocate doing something like that...or create a market where that would make financial sense?

 

Well said Rich!!!

 

As someone who has grown to accept resto more and more in rare GA collecting....I couldn't agree with you more!

 

[MrBedrock]

I agree that old comics are rarer but the results are the same. Honus Wagner is as rare as an Action 1 or Detective 27. Rich, your not right. That guy did not know that that Honus Wagner was trimmed when he won it. He thought he was buying a completely unrestored card. It was estimated in the Newspaper that if its trimmed its only worth 80k.I think he wants his money back.? Rich, trimming is devastating to value even in our hobby no matter how scarce a card or book is too

.

 

I certainly agree that trimming is detrimental to value in the comics marketplace. But I respectfully disagree that restoration in the sports card market is in any way a barometer of what will occur in the comic market. The Honus Wagner card situation is an outgrowth of the once accepted practice of trimming full sheets down into individual cards. That is something that is specific to the card market and different from anything currently under debate in comics. And to say that resto in the card market is a barometer for paper collectibles in general completely ignores the market for old movie paper, where linen backing and restoration are generally accepted.

What I am getting at is...we collect comics and our hobby is unique. To predict our future based on other hobbies may do more harm than good.

[action1kid]

Spoken like the true gentlemen you are.

ill tackle this again tomorrow. I gotta get some sleep/

[Aman619]

I agree that old comics are rarer but the results are the same. Honus Wagner is as rare as an Action 1 or Detective 27. Rich, your not right. That guy did not know that that Honus Wagner was trimmed when he won it. He thought he was buying a completely unrestored card. It was estimated in the Newspaper that if its trimmed its only worth 80k.I think he wants his money back.? Rich, trimming is devastating to value even in our hobby no matter how scarce a card or book is too

.

 

the Honus Wagner card is not a card at all. It was trimmed out from an uncut sheet many years ago. Even if that fact is news to the present owner (after he bought it) its no big deal. Its well past th epoint of acceptance as the mnost valuable trading card. Maybe he overpaid a bit, buts its value hasnt dropped to only 80K, has it? It is what is it, a near pefect sole copy of the rarast baseball card that happened to have been created after the fact by a high up card collector

 

 

as for the whole dot of color touch or glue on killer Pedigree key books? I agree with Action1. And of late, I also agree a bit more with Borock and Bedrock. If I have in my hand a killer GA key book and put a dot of color touch or glue on the cover, is its value REALLY decimated? Isnt the book in actuality still a killer book with one tiny flaw? If the book only had that little flaw/damage that could be cured by a dot of color touch or glue, I mean, was the book SO "beat up" as to be undesirable?

 

And is it now really comparable to a book that had had much more restoration? Or had work done to fool the eye inti thinking the book was a lot better than it actuality was?

 

Lately, for these few "tiny dot" examples, Im seeing more of the REST of the book than the tinyy area that had the "work"

[The Black Hand ®]

I'd buy the book with the tiny dot of color touch or glue all day long....If it was one I wanted and if......it was deeply discounted.

[MrBedrock]

I'd buy the book with the tiny dot of color touch or glue all day long....If it was one I wanted and if......it was deeply discounted.

 

Ah, there's the rub. I am getting less and less inclined to significantly discount a book with very minor restoration. Especially if it is in otherwise in very high grade.

It would be just too hard to replace.

[mr.schomburg]

I agree that old comics are rarer but the results are the same. Honus Wagner is as rare as an Action 1 or Detective 27. Rich, your not right. That guy did not know that that Honus Wagner was trimmed when he won it. He thought he was buying a completely unrestored card. It was estimated in the Newspaper that if its trimmed its only worth 80k.I think he wants his money back.? Rich, trimming is devastating to value even in our hobby no matter how scarce a card or book is too

.

 

the Honus Wagner card is not a card at all. It was trimmed out from an uncut sheet many years ago. Even if that fact is news to the present owner (after he bought it) its no big deal. Its well past th epoint of acceptance as the mnost valuable trading card. Maybe he overpaid a bit, buts its value hasnt dropped to only 80K, has it? It is what is it, a near pefect sole copy of the rarast baseball card that happened to have been created after the fact by a high up card collector

 

 

as for the whole dot of color touch or glue on killer Pedigree key books? I agree with Action1. And of late, I also agree a bit more with Borock and Bedrock. If I have in my hand a killer GA key book and put a dot of color touch or glue on the cover, is its value REALLY decimated? Isnt the book in actuality still a killer book with one tiny flaw? If the book only had that little flaw/damage that could be cured by a dot of color touch or glue, I mean, was the book SO "beat up" as to be undesirable?

 

And is it now really comparable to a book that had had much more restoration? Or had work done to fool the eye inti thinking the book was a lot better than it actuality was?

 

Lately, for these few "tiny dot" examples, Im seeing more of the REST of the book than the tinyy area that had the "work"

 

Restoration....that word, well it brings on many, many feelings. Here is my two cents, or three depending on how tired I get before I finish.

A comic book with very, very minor restoration should be handled just like this.

 

The comic should be given a "Blue Label" it should be down graded to show defect, i.e. a spot of glue if removed might take the book down from a 9.2 to 8.0(may have awsome eye appeal, but have the minor defect). Same goes for a very minor amount of color touch. It comes back to disclosure via the label, present the facts and let the collector decide the merit of its value! It goes without saying that these examples with such minor tampering should be delt with, but putting the scarlet letter is much to harsh. So I agree with CGC and PGX and all who feel the same. I believe this standard should apply to the Golden Age only, as the rest of the markets are much more rich in inventory and most know better now.

 

As to books with minor professional restoration or very well done amature, basically a cleaning and a small amount of color, maybe a tear seal or two and spine reinforcement. Basically mostly conservation....the rule should apply, but not as much as changing the label, but how we look at these books. I would prefer to have unrestored, but finances and scacity play roles in my collecting choices, so on many early or key books I have no other option other than restored copies. Richard Evans is exactly right by his thinking and even at cons like Chicago and San Diego other dealers are following suit, Restored or not they don't have the inventory to let these books go cheap anymore, and Rick and I can tell you on some books you still can pay upto 4x guide for a heavily restored book. So as in my recent MMC 3 from Bedrock with minor to moderate pro restoration which looks 9.2/9.4 ish..what is the appropriate value? I know of a recent sale which most likely was close to 40K for the same book unrestored....Is 1/10 enough of a break? Or, should it be more like 25% of market value? That there in lies the problem, there is no guide for this, on top of that it is changing as we speak. There are the hardliners which will not accept a restored book, and there are the hobbiest/completionist which thrive on such books to meet there collecting goals and allows them access to the big guns via a less expensive route.

 

I see restored books becoming a force in the future. Especially those with minor removable work! I see increases in values and record prices to for these books on key issues. Obviously non-restored should always trump touched books, and will. But the Scarlet Letter will soften, the market demands it, as more collectors want books which via price or scarcity do not exist for them in unrestored. Moderate professionall restored books I see languishing behind a little more, but still will show significant growth, and I still see them as viable investment books. Extensive restored books will grow, but big gains will be seen on super rare keys, i.e. the Action 1's, MC 1's Tec 27's, AA 16's, and MF 52's. If you want a high super key in grade, this catagory might be your only hope unless you have loads of cash. This is already true today, but my opinion is that it will only increase over the next 10 yrs.

 

My opinion is that restoration doesn't change the inherit collectablity of comics, yes, it should impact value compared to a untouched book in same condition is and should be considered much more rare, but its still a rare book right? I mean who hear would not want a MC 1, or a Action 1 even with restoration! The practice of calling a book unrestored and naming the tiny amount of work is abosutely fine with me. After all, I am being told about it, I can always lower my bid or ask for a discount. Its my choice, all factors are disclosed, so I don't see the issue. After all, some restoration is really conservation in my opoinion i.e. tear seals, and cleaning. These items prolong the life of the paper, which will increase the longevity of the hobby.

 

Looks like I gave a little more than .02 cents, sorry!

Paul

[G.A.tor]

as usual, Paul seems to eloquently sum up rational thoughts... , methinks (sorry Robert, had to "steal" that) that Paul has some oratory or at least hidden written talents, or at the very least, the ability to compose and display complex thoughts in an easy to understand fashion

rick

[action1kid]

The Honus Wagner card cut from the full sheet is not what I was referring to exactly. I was referring to that it was trimmed AGAIN after being cut from the full sheet. There are before and after trimming photos to document this is what happened. The reason that particular story hit the wires is because the card IS NOT worth 2.4 million if that is the case.That is the reason the trimming story hit the papers.

[ciorac]

I'd buy the book with the tiny dot of color touch or glue all day long....If it was one I wanted and if......it was deeply discounted.

 

Ah, there's the rub. I am getting less and less inclined to significantly discount a book with very minor restoration. Especially if it is in otherwise in very high grade.

It would be just too hard to replace.

 

But, nonetheless you would discount it, correct? Maybe just not as much?

 

I resist the notion that you would price a completely untouched book the same as one with a glued tear seal and color touch on that seal. Certainly you could price it anyway you choose, but I think the market would resist the temptation to pay the premium.

 

The struggle for me is determining the grade prior to the "enhancement". It seems like that is the true grade. But that is a very difficult prospect in some cases, others not so much.

 

I'm not on the conservation bandwagon yet, and am not sure I will ever be. In my view all restoration conserves the book, as it removes defects and replaces deterioriating components. Splitting hairs between restoration and conservation seems to be conserving the perceived value of the book moreso than truly differentiating between the techniques employed.

[action1kid]

I wonder if the Mile High More Fun 52 would have gotten more than the 150k it got[in a private sale] if It didnt have that dot of glue]..I think so. Alot more.

The current owner is a significant collector and clearly he accepts very minor resto at the right price. Believe it or not, even at that price that book was discounted due to that glue.

[Forbush-Man]

as usual, Paul seems to eloquently sum up rational thoughts... , methinks (sorry Robert, had to "steal" that) that Paul has some oratory or at least hidden written talents, or at the very least, the ability to compose and display complex thoughts in an easy to understand fashion

rick

 

Yeah!

FM

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[action1kid]

We are always talking about restoration related to KEY books if you notice.

Let me ask you this? . What is your opinion on the future value on NON key books[WITH RESTORATION] that dont have historical significance or rarity to back them up]{ I think thats a fair question] .Those are MOST of the books in the hobby right? That is the real question the will answer the direction of the hobby regarding restoration. I think the more common the book the more restoration will hurt its value. I think the less important a book is the more restoration hurts its value.

Remember there was a time when restoring these books brought up there value.That isnt the case any more.I realize that resto is targeted towards key books but there are alot of non keys out there with work on em..Whats your 2 cents on non keys with resto [its direction price wise I mean?]

[The Black Hand ®]

A lot of this depends on the amount and type of restoration and the most important factor....Page Quality. I can't abide a vf with anything below light cream pages. There's nothing worse then a high grade looking book with tan pages.

[action1kid]

I draw the line at cream/off white........

[batman_fan]

We are always talking about restoration related to KEY books if you notice.

Let me ask you this? . What is your opinion on the future value on NON key books[WITH RESTORATION] that dont have historical significance or rarity to back them up]{ I think thats a fair question] .Those are MOST of the books in the hobby right? That is the real question the will answer the direction of the hobby regarding restoration. I think the more common the book the more restoration will hurt its value. I think the less important a book is the more restoration hurts its value.

Remember there was a time when restoring these books brought up there value.That isnt the case any more.I realize that resto is targeted towards key books but there are alot of non keys out there with work on em..Whats your 2 cents on non keys with resto [its direction price wise I mean?]

 

I agree with you on this one. I bought a Batman 15 with Slight Professional, cover cleaned. It is in a purple holder, 9.2 I paid $1000 which is 1/5 the guide price. I would say a slight discount. Now someone may say cleaning is not slight, but I can live with it for that price.

[lou_fine]

I realize that resto is targeted towards key books but there are alot of non keys out there with work on em..Whats your 2 cents on non keys with resto [its direction price wise I mean?]

 

I don't think the critical factor is whether the book is key or not. I beleive the critical factor is really more dependent on how rare the book is and how hard it is to find in unrestored grade.

 

For example, many collectors do not have a problem paying above normal restored market valuations for early Centaurs, pre-hero DC's, and any other real HTF books that simply rarely shows up in the marketplace.

[Socratic Wonder]

We are always talking about restoration related to KEY books if you notice.

Let me ask you this? . What is your opinion on the future value on NON key books[WITH RESTORATION] that dont have historical significance or rarity to back them up]{ I think thats a fair question] .Those are MOST of the books in the hobby right? That is the real question the will answer the direction of the hobby regarding restoration. I think the more common the book the more restoration will hurt its value. I think the less important a book is the more restoration hurts its value.

Remember there was a time when restoring these books brought up there value.That isnt the case any more.I realize that resto is targeted towards key books but there are alot of non keys out there with work on em..Whats your 2 cents on non keys with resto [its direction price wise I mean?]

 

I agree with you that the real question is how will resto affect non key non scarce books!

 

I think the silver age market is a fair baramoter as to how the industry feels about that. Now if we are talking about minor ct or minor tear seals that is a different ball game. If you are looking at an MP restored All Star #29 for example I doubt there are very few golden age collectors who would be willing to consider this a collectable book. Why? Because I can find 50 unrestored copies and some low grade enough to match price with the restored one.

 

I don't think this is too ramped a problem, at least with pro resto work, because the market doesn't allow it to be profitable. Why would someone restore a non key non scarce GA comic in todays market? There is no money in it and its not like these resto experts work cheap.

 

Now when it comes to key and scarce books with resto I feel they can only pick up steam as demand for these books increases!

 

 

Edited August 26, 2007 by Socratic Wonder

[MrBedrock]

I'd buy the book with the tiny dot of color touch or glue all day long....If it was one I wanted and if......it was deeply discounted.

 

Ah, there's the rub. I am getting less and less inclined to significantly discount a book with very minor restoration. Especially if it is in otherwise in very high grade.

It would be just too hard to replace.

 

But, nonetheless you would discount it, correct? Maybe just not as much?

 

I resist the notion that you would price a completely untouched book the same as one with a glued tear seal and color touch on that seal. Certainly you could price it anyway you choose, but I think the market would resist the temptation to pay the premium.

 

The struggle for me is determining the grade prior to the "enhancement". It seems like that is the true grade. But that is a very difficult prospect in some cases, others not so much.

 

I'm not on the conservation bandwagon yet, and am not sure I will ever be. In my view all restoration conserves the book, as it removes defects and replaces deterioriating components. Splitting hairs between restoration and conservation seems to be conserving the perceived value of the book moreso than truly differentiating between the techniques employed.

 

I have been proposing to Bob Overstreet that all golden age books should be seperated in the guide and priced individually. The idea that, say, Superman 31 - 40 are all worth exactly the same is silly and old fashioned to me. If those ten books were laid out in the same grade at the same price the 32 would sell first almost every time. At some point one of those ten is going to be shown as scarcer than the others. Factors like these should dictate that each of them should be priced differently.

The same can be said for golden age books with minor resto. Every book should be treated individually. And every situation is different. This discussion started with a statement that, to me, seemed to be a blanket statement. I don't think blanket statements should be made in regards to items as rare as some of these books are.

So, in answer to your question, I may discount it, I may not. It really depends on the book. If there isn't an untouched copy in anywhere near the grade, why would I discount it just because it has a small something? It is still THE BEST COPY.

[action1kid]

The issue is more can you Get what you feel shouldnt be discounted. Thats the determinant of the direction its really going with these tiny touch ups.