Golden Age Collector's And The Hatred Of Restoration

[FFB]

yeah. Showcase may have been exaggerating his "research" of restored prices, but seems to me that Action 27 was bought raw very cheaply... AND sold restored very handsomely!! Not IMO a common circumstance.

 

Actually, the Action #27 resold for about what I would have expected. It was probably around a 5.5 before the glue was added to the spine, and it sold for roughly unrestored 5.0-5.5 FMV. If you treat amateur restoration as I do when valuing restored books (view it as a defect that detracts from the book's previously unrestored grade), then you're looking at a book that would grade out at around 5.0 and the resale price is in line with that.

[ciorac]

Showcase is not that far off.

 

I think it is difficult to put an absolute percentage on what a restored book will sell for. VA Dave's recent auctions demonstrate that. In Chicago I bought a restored, slabbed 9.0 Timely for 25% of the unrestored guide value. I also just bought a big golden age key issue for 25% of its unrestored value.

 

I've bought and sold thousands of restored golden age books, the typical average for me has been 20 - 30% of the unrestored value. Have there been excpetions? Sure, plenty of them. But typically, and sadly for sellers the above statistics bear out for me. Happily though, I am a collector now more than a dealer, so I enjoy paying the lower number.

 

If you know of folks paying high percentages of guide for restored comics, even Timely's, on a regular basis, give me their contact information to keep on file when I need to accumlate some cash to buy more keys!!

 

What kind of restoration did those books have? I would be shocked if you bought any CGC 9.0 Timely with slight color touch for 25% of FMV, and the same goes for every other book out there. While I suppose it's true that anything is possible in the realm of private sales, the fact is that slightly restored books sell for a far greater percentage of FMV than that. I suspect the books you bought had at least moderate restoration if you got them that cheaply.

 

FMV and Guide are completely different animals. 9.0 Timely's do not sell anywhere near guide. My scenarios, which are verifiable, were as I wrote...percentages of Guide.

 

Perhaps you have seen more examples than me of how Slight, Moderate and Heavy PLODS affect the sale price. It is entirely possible, since I only recently started buying slabbed books, then cracking them of course.

 

I would be interested to know how they break out. Can you share this information with us?

 

Seems like some books with slight color touch get a blue label and some get a purple label with the same connotation. I find that odd. As I have mentioned before, this seems to happen much more frequently to pedigree books. Which should not truly be part of this discussion since we are talking about restored books as a whole. At least, I am.

 

And yes the Timely had moderate resto noted on the label. I didn't indicate that it only had slight color touch in the above reference, I indicated that it had been restored. Restoration is a broad term. But, in my experience, unless the book is so heavily restored that it looks fake, the percentages have been about the same for me. The Franken-books are very tough to sell and I don't buy them.

[FFB]

Showcase is not that far off.

 

I think it is difficult to put an absolute percentage on what a restored book will sell for. VA Dave's recent auctions demonstrate that. In Chicago I bought a restored, slabbed 9.0 Timely for 25% of the unrestored guide value. I also just bought a big golden age key issue for 25% of its unrestored value.

 

I've bought and sold thousands of restored golden age books, the typical average for me has been 20 - 30% of the unrestored value. Have there been excpetions? Sure, plenty of them. But typically, and sadly for sellers the above statistics bear out for me. Happily though, I am a collector now more than a dealer, so I enjoy paying the lower number.

 

If you know of folks paying high percentages of guide for restored comics, even Timely's, on a regular basis, give me their contact information to keep on file when I need to accumlate some cash to buy more keys!!

 

What kind of restoration did those books have? I would be shocked if you bought any CGC 9.0 Timely with slight color touch for 25% of FMV, and the same goes for every other book out there. While I suppose it's true that anything is possible in the realm of private sales, the fact is that slightly restored books sell for a far greater percentage of FMV than that. I suspect the books you bought had at least moderate restoration if you got them that cheaply.

 

FMV and Guide are completely different animals. 9.0 Timely's do not sell anywhere near guide. My scenarios, which are verifiable, were as I wrote...percentages of Guide.

 

Perhaps you have seen more examples than me of how Slight, Moderate and Heavy PLODS affect the sale price. It is entirely possible, since I only recently started buying slabbed books, then cracking them of course.

 

I would be interested to know how they break out. Can you share this information with us?

 

Sure thing, Bill. For which genres would you like me to show some sales figures?

 

Seems like some books with slight color touch get a blue label and some get a purple label with the same connotation. I find that odd. As I have mentioned before, this seems to happen much more frequently to pedigree books. Which should not truly be part of this discussion since we are talking about restored books as a whole. At least, I am.

 

As I understand it, a GA book will only get a blue label with resto notes if the restoration is so minor that it does not improve the apparent grade of the book more than one grade level. So if you have a GA book with a couple dots of color touch that would raise the book from unrestored 9.0 to apparent 9.4, then it gets the purple label and an apparent 9.4 grade. But if you have a GA book with a couple dots of color touch that would raise the book from unrestored 9.0 to apparent 9.2, then the book would get a blue 9.0 label with a note indicating the color touch.

 

As for why it tends to happen more often to pedigree books, my belief is that this is true because it is pedigree books that tend to start out in high grade in the first place, and thus they only "need" a hit or two of color touch to be "perfect." (I'm speaking here from what I understand to have been the mentality of those who added dots of color touch to high grade books back in the day.) Low- and mid-grade (generally non-pedigree) books usually "need" a lot more color touch and it is rare for someone to hit two or three spots on a spine and stop there when there are ten or more spine stresses with color loss.

 

And yes the Timely had moderate resto noted on the label. I didn't indicate that it only had slight color touch in the above reference, I indicated that it had been restored. Restoration is a broad term. But, in my experience, unless the book is so heavily restored that it looks fake, the percentages have been about the same for me. The Franken-books are very tough to sell and I don't buy them.

 

Moderately and extensively restored books sell for a far greater discount than books with slight color touch or slight glue. No question about that. But my original discussion with Showcase was in response to his statement that any book with a single dot of color touch was generally worth 20% of its unrestored counterpart in the same grade. That is absolutely not true.

[ciorac]

Showcase is not that far off.

 

I think it is difficult to put an absolute percentage on what a restored book will sell for. VA Dave's recent auctions demonstrate that. In Chicago I bought a restored, slabbed 9.0 Timely for 25% of the unrestored guide value. I also just bought a big golden age key issue for 25% of its unrestored value.

 

I've bought and sold thousands of restored golden age books, the typical average for me has been 20 - 30% of the unrestored value. Have there been excpetions? Sure, plenty of them. But typically, and sadly for sellers the above statistics bear out for me. Happily though, I am a collector now more than a dealer, so I enjoy paying the lower number.

 

If you know of folks paying high percentages of guide for restored comics, even Timely's, on a regular basis, give me their contact information to keep on file when I need to accumlate some cash to buy more keys!!

 

What kind of restoration did those books have? I would be shocked if you bought any CGC 9.0 Timely with slight color touch for 25% of FMV, and the same goes for every other book out there. While I suppose it's true that anything is possible in the realm of private sales, the fact is that slightly restored books sell for a far greater percentage of FMV than that. I suspect the books you bought had at least moderate restoration if you got them that cheaply.

 

FMV and Guide are completely different animals. 9.0 Timely's do not sell anywhere near guide. My scenarios, which are verifiable, were as I wrote...percentages of Guide.

 

Perhaps you have seen more examples than me of how Slight, Moderate and Heavy PLODS affect the sale price. It is entirely possible, since I only recently started buying slabbed books, then cracking them of course.

 

I would be interested to know how they break out. Can you share this information with us?

 

Sure thing, Bill. For which genres would you like me to show some sales figures?

 

Seems like some books with slight color touch get a blue label and some get a purple label with the same connotation. I find that odd. As I have mentioned before, this seems to happen much more frequently to pedigree books. Which should not truly be part of this discussion since we are talking about restored books as a whole. At least, I am.

 

As I understand it, a GA book will only get a blue label with resto notes if the restoration is so minor that it does not improve the apparent grade of the book more than one grade level. So if you have a GA book with a couple dots of color touch that would raise the book from unrestored 9.0 to apparent 9.4, then it gets the purple label and an apparent 9.4 grade. But if you have a GA book with a couple dots of color touch that would raise the book from unrestored 9.0 to apparent 9.2, then the book would get a blue 9.0 label with a note indicating the color touch.

 

As for why it tends to happen more often to pedigree books, my belief is that this is true because it is pedigree books that tend to start out in high grade in the first place, and thus they only "need" a hit or two of color touch to be "perfect." (I'm speaking here from what I understand to have been the mentality of those who added dots of color touch to high grade books back in the day.) Low- and mid-grade (generally non-pedigree) books usually "need" a lot more color touch and it is rare for someone to hit two or three spots on a spine and stop there when there are ten or more spine stresses with color loss.

 

And yes the Timely had moderate resto noted on the label. I didn't indicate that it only had slight color touch in the above reference, I indicated that it had been restored. Restoration is a broad term. But, in my experience, unless the book is so heavily restored that it looks fake, the percentages have been about the same for me. The Franken-books are very tough to sell and I don't buy them.

 

Moderately and extensively restored books sell for a far greater discount than books with slight color touch or slight glue. No question about that. But my original discussion with Showcase was in response to his statement that any book with a single dot of color touch was generally worth 20% of its unrestored counterpart in the same grade. That is absolutely not true.

 

I completely agree with your last two sentences. You are right on the money.

 

How would it break out for instance on a Detective 31?

 

Slight = ?

Moderate = ?

Extensive = ?

 

Or just insert Pre-Robin Tec of your choice.

 

Same scenario for:

 

All American 16

 

Slight = ?

Moderate = ?

Extensive = ?

 

Lastly, run of the mill Timely..

 

Sumariner 11 let's say.

 

Slight = ?

Moderate = ?

Extensive = ?

 

Thanks!

 

Bill

[bluechip]

<<<<<<As I understand it, a GA book will only get a blue label with resto notes if the restoration is so minor that it does not improve the apparent grade of the book more than one grade level. >>>>>>>>>>

 

If that were the case and were evenly and consistently applied it would make a lot of sense and bring a great deal of stability.

 

But it's been my experience that is not the case. A book with tiny color touch that is otherwise vf would, in many cases, be a vf even without the color touch (especially since missing color, foxing, and the like so often seem to have NO effect on those higher grades)

 

At the lower end it's even more clear that's not the case. How can you possibly have an "apparent poor."

 

Books graded fair and even good or gvg with color touch and glue, etc. most often get the same grade they'd have gotten without the slight resto.

 

It might lend a bit of sanity if the work done to a book was called defects or danage when it doesn't affect the grade, and restoration only when it does affect the grade. Because, by definition, restored should imply that a previous grade has been artificially achieved, not that a mark on the cover appears as just one of many defects determining the grade. In those instances, the color touch or glue could be treated as a not easily noticed (or hidden) defect as opposed to something that improves the value -- which and when it doesn/t

[Vtcomics]

all the debating is moot....eventually/someday they will ALL be restored. Tis a certainty; you can't stop time. May take another 100 years or so, but they will ALL have some resto to them to prevent turning to dust. Every one of them.

 

 

It is just not so my friend...we are in the age of enlightenment now with regards to preservation...we have Mylar, acid free backing boards with Polyester sleeves, know about dark, cool, dry storage...I can make a book last 300 years with the archival storage materials available today, and common knowledge regarding pulp preservation. I know a conservator who can seal a book in an archival housing, and interlace each page with a special type of archival paper that draws out acid and staining over time...the pages actually get lighter and cleaner the longer the paper is there, and can be removed at any time....and this is not restoration...it is called "passive migration". It just one example of non-restoration preservation techniques available to all of us right now

 

Good points, but what percentage of all collectors will be able to afford such luxuries?? 1%? 2%? Many books will end up restored, while only the "super-grails" will be assigned to the conservation techniques you mention. Of course, if these conservation techniques eventually become financially feasible for your average joe collector, then maybe there is hope.

[ciorac]

all the debating is moot....eventually/someday they will ALL be restored. Tis a certainty; you can't stop time. May take another 100 years or so, but they will ALL have some resto to them to prevent turning to dust. Every one of them.

 

 

It is just not so my friend...we are in the age of enlightenment now with regards to preservation...we have Mylar, acid free backing boards with Polyester sleeves, know about dark, cool, dry storage...I can make a book last 300 years with the archival storage materials available today, and common knowledge regarding pulp preservation. I know a conservator who can seal a book in an archival housing, and interlace each page with a special type of archival paper that draws out acid and staining over time...the pages actually get lighter and cleaner the longer the paper is there, and can be removed at any time....and this is not restoration...it is called "passive migration". It just one example of non-restoration preservation techniques available to all of us right now

 

Good points, but what percentage of all collectors will be able to afford such luxuries?? 1%? 2%? Many books will end up restored, while only the "super-grails" will be assigned to the conservation techniques you mention. Of course, if these conservation techniques eventually become financially feasible for your average joe collector, then maybe there is hope.

 

Philly,

 

what the heck does your sig line mean??

 

Bill

[FFB]

How would it break out for instance on a Detective 31?

 

Slight = ?

Moderate = ?

Extensive = ?

 

MP 9.2 (pieces added, color touch, tear seals, reinforced, cleaned) sold for $7475 in November 2003. Absolutely gorgeous work on that book, but a lot of it. Looks like one of the several pieces added was to fill in some rat chew along the leading edge of the cover. The book was probably a 4.0 or so before the work was done.

MP 8.0 sold for $5643 in June 2006. No scan on Heritage.

EP 7.0 sold for $4780 in May 2006. (Pretty ugly copy, if I may say so. It's on Heritage if you want to look.)

Unrestored 5.5 (D copy) sold for $17327.50 in August 2006.

Unrestored 5.0 sold three times in 2004: $9775 in April 2004, $8100 also in April 2004, and $8050 in October 2004.

One SA 4.0 copy (color touch, tear seals, reinforced) sold in October 2002 for $2530.

 

No slight P copies recorded as sold since 2002. No other recorded sales in the last two years, although I believe CW paid $11,000 for his unrestored CGC 5.0 copy from Metro in July 2005.

 

All American 16

 

Slight = ?

Moderate = ?

Extensive = ?

 

EP 8.5 sold for $14340 in May 2006. Same book sold for $9934.85 in December 2003. (Not a bad ROI.) Beautiful work too on a book that looks like it started out as a 2.0 or so before being restored.

MP 7.0 sold for $8099 in April 2005. Book in same grade (there are two MP 7.0s in the census) sold for $11,626.50 in November 2003, $5750 in March 2003, and $8050. (Kind of all over the map on that one.)

 

There are no copies with slight restoration in the census.

 

Lastly, run of the mill Timely..

 

Sumariner 11 let's say.

 

Slight = ?

Moderate = ?

Extensive = ?

 

There's only one restored copy of Sub-Mariner Comics #11 that has sold at public auction since 2002, and it's a Moderate A 5.5 that sold in December 2004 for $192.00. Unrestored copies in 5.0/5.5 obviously sell for a lot more than that.

[showcase4]

How would it break out for instance on a Detective 31?

 

Unrestored 5.0 sold : $9775

One SA 4.0 copy (color touch, tear seals, reinforced) sold for $2530.

 

FFB,

thank you for proving my point.....it would be a real pain in the neck for me to dig thru all my auction results "research". This works out to be 25%, and it's a key book / popular title.

[gpanalysis]

I haven't read the whole thread, so excuse the post if this has already been stated. I think good (professional) restoration, even when moderate/extensive on Golden or hard-to-find-in-high-grade books is completely acceptable. I don't think it should make much of a price difference when considering such books, not as much as it seems to play now. I also think that if the interest in high-grade/rare/high-priced Golden age books increases in the future, expect to see a narrowing in the price differential between non-restored and professionally restored books.

 

Hope I haven't offended anyone

[action1kid]

I haven't read the whole thread, so excuse the post if this has already been stated. I think good (professional) restoration, even when moderate/extensive on Golden or hard-to-find-in-high-grade books is completely acceptable. I don't think it should make much of a price difference when considering such books, not as much as it seems to play now. I also think that if the interest in high-grade/rare/high-priced Golden age books increases in the future, expect to see a narrowing in the price differential between non-restored and professionally restored books.

 

Hope I haven't offended anyone

 

No offence taken.

It is a profound statement in that the exact opposite is whats happening and the spreads are GROWING between the two.But like stocks who can really predict?

[Vtcomics]

all the debating is moot....eventually/someday they will ALL be restored. Tis a certainty; you can't stop time. May take another 100 years or so, but they will ALL have some resto to them to prevent turning to dust. Every one of them.

 

 

It is just not so my friend...we are in the age of enlightenment now with regards to preservation...we have Mylar, acid free backing boards with Polyester sleeves, know about dark, cool, dry storage...I can make a book last 300 years with the archival storage materials available today, and common knowledge regarding pulp preservation. I know a conservator who can seal a book in an archival housing, and interlace each page with a special type of archival paper that draws out acid and staining over time...the pages actually get lighter and cleaner the longer the paper is there, and can be removed at any time....and this is not restoration...it is called "passive migration". It just one example of non-restoration preservation techniques available to all of us right now

 

Good points, but what percentage of all collectors will be able to afford such luxuries?? 1%? 2%? Many books will end up restored, while only the "super-grails" will be assigned to the conservation techniques you mention. Of course, if these conservation techniques eventually become financially feasible for your average joe collector, then maybe there is hope.

 

Philly,

 

what the heck does your sig line mean??

 

Bill

 

It's a line from the movie Ocean's 11. Danny Ocean to Rusty.

[FFB]

How would it break out for instance on a Detective 31?

 

Unrestored 5.0 sold : $9775

One SA 4.0 copy (color touch, tear seals, reinforced) sold for $2530.

 

FFB,

thank you for proving my point.....it would be a real pain in the neck for me to dig thru all my auction results "research". This works out to be 25%, and it's a key book / popular title.

 

It does not prove your point at all. The restored book is two apparent grades lower, sold almost two years earlier than the unrestored book did, and it has a hell of a lot more AMATEUR work (color touch, tear seals, reinforced) than the one dot of professional color touch that you claimed caused a book to drop to 20% of its unrestored value -- and even with all of this extra work, the restored book STILL sold for 25% of the value of an unrestored copy that was two grades higher and sold almost two years later. Couple that with the fact that the restored copy sold during 2002 (the nadir of restored book values) and I'd say that the example does you absolutely no good.

 

So, have you found a single book yet that supports your statement about the effect of a dot of color touch on a book?

[bluechip]

How would it break out for instance on a Detective 31?

 

Unrestored 5.0 sold : $9775

One SA 4.0 copy (color touch, tear seals, reinforced) sold for $2530.

 

FFB,

thank you for proving my point.....it would be a real pain in the neck for me to dig thru all my auction results "research". This works out to be 25%, and it's a key book / popular title.

 

It does not prove your point at all. The restored book is two apparent grades lower, sold almost two years earlier than the unrestored book did, and it has a hell of a lot more AMATEUR work (color touch, tear seals, reinforced) than the one dot of professional color touch that you claimed caused a book to drop to 20% of its unrestored value -- and even with all of this extra work, the restored book STILL sold for 25% of the value of an unrestored copy that was two grades higher and sold almost two years later. Couple that with the fact that the restored copy sold during 2002 (the nadir of restored book values) and I'd say that the example does you absolutely no good.

 

So, have you found a single book yet that supports your statement about the effect of a dot of color touch on a book?

 

 

If you take the highest sale you can find for one type (unrestored or restored) book and the lowest sale you can find for a similar book of the other type, you can make the figures look like anything you want. And making an effort to do so brings to light an agenda. Which begs the core question. I can much more easily understand people looking to confirm higher sales on things they own than I can understand (or ascribe good motives to) people looking to cook the numbers to damage the value of books other people own

[FFB]

How would it break out for instance on a Detective 31?

 

Unrestored 5.0 sold : $9775

One SA 4.0 copy (color touch, tear seals, reinforced) sold for $2530.

 

FFB,

thank you for proving my point.....it would be a real pain in the neck for me to dig thru all my auction results "research". This works out to be 25%, and it's a key book / popular title.

 

It does not prove your point at all. The restored book is two apparent grades lower, sold almost two years earlier than the unrestored book did, and it has a hell of a lot more AMATEUR work (color touch, tear seals, reinforced) than the one dot of professional color touch that you claimed caused a book to drop to 20% of its unrestored value -- and even with all of this extra work, the restored book STILL sold for 25% of the value of an unrestored copy that was two grades higher and sold almost two years later. Couple that with the fact that the restored copy sold during 2002 (the nadir of restored book values) and I'd say that the example does you absolutely no good.

 

So, have you found a single book yet that supports your statement about the effect of a dot of color touch on a book?

 

 

If you take the highest sale you can find for one type (unrestored or restored) book and the lowest sale you can find for a similar book of the other type, you can make the figures look like anything you want. And making an effort to do so brings to light an agenda. Which begs the core question. I can much more easily understand people looking to confirm higher sales on things they own than I can understand (or ascribe good motives to) people looking to cook the numbers to damage the value of books other people own

 

Who is this post directed toward? Me or Showcase? My "agenda" is clear -- accuracy and debunking of myths about restored book values. I own exactly one restored book and it isn't even a GA book (it's an AF#15), so it isn't like I've got a huge stake in the game.

[CW]

On the tec #31 there have been 2 sales in 5.0 since 2004. Mine was 11k and Clink sold another for 12k. I believe Esquire was asking 13k for his when it was available. And as FFB said 17k on the Crippen 5.5. Hope that helps with your numbers.

-CW

[bluechip]

 

Who is this post directed toward? Me or Showcase? My "agenda" is clear -- accuracy and debunking of myths about restored book values. I own exactly one restored book and it isn't even a GA book (it's an AF#15), so it isn't like I've got a huge stake in the game.

 

Sorry if it seemed to imply an agenda from you. It was a response to the "proves my point" quote that sought to prove a hard and fast 25% figure/rule. And I guess that was showcase. Basically the point is to wonder why somebody would spend so much time slamming things they don't buy.

 

IMO, if you just don't buy them yourself you spend one amount of time thinking about it (very little), and if you're out to slam the value of things and prevent other people from buying them, you spend a lot more time on it.

[showcase4]

If you take the highest sale you can find for one type (unrestored or restored) book and the lowest sale you can find for a similar book of the other type, you can make the figures look like anything you want. And making an effort to do so brings to light an agenda. Which begs the core question. I can much more easily understand people looking to confirm higher sales on things they own than I can understand (or ascribe good motives to) people looking to cook the numbers to damage the value of books other people own

 

Well said Bob..........the last thing I would want to do is create thru a trickle down effect the lowering of my fellow collectors restored books values, as like you, I have no agenda here. Anyone can cherry pick certain examples to show whatever they want to show on this topic, just like you said.

[FFB]

If you take the highest sale you can find for one type (unrestored or restored) book and the lowest sale you can find for a similar book of the other type, you can make the figures look like anything you want. And making an effort to do so brings to light an agenda. Which begs the core question. I can much more easily understand people looking to confirm higher sales on things they own than I can understand (or ascribe good motives to) people looking to cook the numbers to damage the value of books other people own

 

Well said Bob..........the last thing I would want to do is create thru a trickle down effect the lowering of my fellow collectors restored books values, as like you, I have no agenda here. Anyone can cherry pick certain examples to show whatever they want to show on this topic.

 

Showcase, I'm still waiting for you to show one example that evidences what you say is an "all day long" rule for restored books with a dot of professional color touch.

[showcase4]

Showcase, I'm still waiting for you to show one example that evidences what you say is an "all day long" rule for restored books with a dot of professional color touch.

 

I just did a semi-thorough search of Heritage's archives, as you can sort by things including "slight restoration" due to "color touch", and then compare them to similar graded unrestored identical books.

 

One of the characteristics of integrity, which I am proud to say is the basis of all my dealings, is to publically admit if I said something incorrect. My own research as of today has shown the average sales price of "slightly" restored books, and "slightly" restored ONLY is approx 1/3 of unrestored value, and not 1/5 as I previously stated.

 

FFB...you were correct to challenge me on this, and I stand corrected . My 20% figure is apparently focused on heavily restored books, and I was lumping them all together, and giving them universally credit for "worst case scenerio".... the market is stronger than I have implied for "slightly" restored books .

 

As for extensive restoration...that's where my 20% I'm sure will prove to be extremely accurate, and there will be no apologies for that one