Golden Age Collector's And The Hatred Of Restoration

[Theagenes]

Well, I almost lost my resto cherry tonight, but I got beat out.

I was trying for the Dentist's restored Buck Rogers #1 and thought I had comfortably overbid. I calculated what I thought would be about 30-35% of unrestored FMV and added a little, but it still wasn't enough to snag it:

 

LINK

 

I really though the bleached pages would turn people off more (Thanks to FFB for provding me info on bleaching). It will be interesting to compare this result to the CGC 4.5 in the upcoming Heritage auction.

[bluechip]

How would you go about implementing such a change?

 

I felt that the best chance was when cgc was talking about adding a second number to the slab for restored books and creating a 10 point restoration assesment. That would result in an upgrade from the current 3 "point scale" that could resolve a large number of these issues. I believe that all of these examples could be seperated properly from one another within 10 (or put in .5's and have 20) different levels of restoration classification.

 

Grading in general has become very accurate and detailed with the 10 point grading system while restoration ratings are still lagging immensly. It may appear an inappropriate comparison but it looks to me like the restoration classifications used today (Slight Moderate Extensive) would reflect as Good Fine NM if they were a grading standard. Think of the minutiae lost between Fine and Nearmint while grading books and how that might correlate to Moderate and Extensive restoration.

 

CGC takes great care in listing all of the various restorations they find on a book. It seems logical to use those to establish a much more detailed scale. As it stands now the consumer is left with the task of interpreting the list on the label and discerning how slight, how moderate, or how extensive a book is restored. As a result, in my opinion, the value of the extensively restored book that FFB points out as having the 1" piece added (was a 3.5) is hurt dramatically by the company it keeps in the extensive column with the Franken-books. The same could be said for the very slight CT versus slight CT and Tear Seals.

 

The point of my mumblings is that a more detailed scale 1-10 (just like the grades) would allow the buyer to quickly interpret just how much resto is on the book and stop the worst in each category (slight moderate extensive) from negatively impacting the image and value of the other books that currently share the titles.

 

Total agreement with you CW. I know that Matt Nelson started something like this a while back, but it never took hold. I am going to the Dallas show in a couple weeks and will be crashing at Matt's. I hope to come away with something to submit to Steve Borock as a 10 point scale to level the playing field for restored books. Wish me luck!

 

 

Applauding your efforts and wishing you luck.

 

How could more information be anything but a good thing?

[whomerjay]

that's a shame, that's a great cover, and that books looks better than VG to me- was he saying VG before resto? Also, I'm not put off my those types of resto, although not sure what the bleaching does (other than whiten).

[Theagenes]

that's a shame, that's a great cover, and that books looks better than VG to me- was he saying VG before resto? Also, I'm not put off my those types of resto, although not sure what the bleaching does (other than whiten).

 

Yeah, I thought it was a pretty solid apparent VG+. I was a little nervous about the bleaching, until FFB told me that with a professional job it is usually done in conjunction with deacidification; that me feel a little better about it and I decided to go ahead and bid. Also, according to Dave, the color inks did not seem to be affected and the pages were still supple (I was worried about having white, brittle pages ) But I just couldn't bring myself to bid any higher for a restored copy, even one that looks that nice.

[showcase4]

that's a shame, that's a great cover, and that books looks better than VG to me- was he saying VG before resto? Also, I'm not put off my those types of resto, although not sure what the bleaching does (other than whiten).

 

Yeah, I thought it was a pretty solid apparent VG+. I was a little nervous about the bleaching, until FFB told me that with a professional job it is usually done in conjunction with deacidification; that me feel a little better about it and I decided to go ahead and bid. Also, according to Dave, the color inks did not seem to be affected and the pages were still supple (I was worried about having white, brittle pages ) But I just couldn't bring myself to bid any higher for a restored copy, even one that looks that nice.

 

I think this book may have gone for more than expected because Bigloo appears to grade very conservatively ...a rare a wonderful attribute. Intentional overgrading is on the same level as intentional undisclosed restoration as far as I'm concerned...just much tougher to prove (overgrading). This book looks more like an apparent Fine/Fine+

 

As for bleaching...it reminds me of pressing and/or cleaning in that if it's done well, you really can't spot it like you can a tear seal or prominant color touch. I have seen some bleached books that looked completely untouched and natural...the key is not to make the pages bright white on a 50+ year old book!...a more subtle off-white has a really authentic look to it.

 

Hopefully you'll get another shot at owning a copy of this book...they're out there

[ciorac]

that's a shame, that's a great cover, and that books looks better than VG to me- was he saying VG before resto? Also, I'm not put off my those types of resto, although not sure what the bleaching does (other than whiten).

 

Yeah, I thought it was a pretty solid apparent VG+. I was a little nervous about the bleaching, until FFB told me that with a professional job it is usually done in conjunction with deacidification; that me feel a little better about it and I decided to go ahead and bid. Also, according to Dave, the color inks did not seem to be affected and the pages were still supple (I was worried about having white, brittle pages ) But I just couldn't bring myself to bid any higher for a restored copy, even one that looks that nice.

 

I think this book may have gone for more than expected because Bigloo appears to grade very conservatively ...a rare a wonderful attribute. Intentional overgrading is on the same level as intentional undisclosed restoration as far as I'm concerned...just much tougher to prove (overgrading). This book looks more like an apparent Fine/Fine+

 

As for bleaching...it reminds me of pressing and/or cleaning in that if it's done well, you really can't spot it like you can a tear seal or prominant color touch. I have seen some bleached books that looked completely untouched and natural...the key is not to make the pages bright white on a 50+ year old book!...a more subtle off-white has a really authentic look to it.

 

Hopefully you'll get another shot at owning a copy of this book...they're out there

 

Re-think your position on his grading..

 

As for bleaching Steve, the nose never lies...

[sacentaur]

Re-think your position on his grading..

 

An extra restoration check wouldn't hurt either...

 

STEVE

[FFB]

that's a shame, that's a great cover, and that books looks better than VG to me- was he saying VG before resto? Also, I'm not put off my those types of resto, although not sure what the bleaching does (other than whiten).

 

Yeah, I thought it was a pretty solid apparent VG+. I was a little nervous about the bleaching, until FFB told me that with a professional job it is usually done in conjunction with deacidification; that me feel a little better about it and I decided to go ahead and bid. Also, according to Dave, the color inks did not seem to be affected and the pages were still supple (I was worried about having white, brittle pages ) But I just couldn't bring myself to bid any higher for a restored copy, even one that looks that nice.

 

I think this book may have gone for more than expected because Bigloo appears to grade very conservatively ...a rare a wonderful attribute. Intentional overgrading is on the same level as intentional undisclosed restoration as far as I'm concerned...just much tougher to prove (overgrading). This book looks more like an apparent Fine/Fine+

 

As for bleaching...it reminds me of pressing and/or cleaning in that if it's done well, you really can't spot it like you can a tear seal or prominant color touch. I have seen some bleached books that looked completely untouched and natural...the key is not to make the pages bright white on a 50+ year old book!...a more subtle off-white has a really authentic look to it.

 

Hopefully you'll get another shot at owning a copy of this book...they're out there

 

Re-think your position on his grading..

 

As for bleaching Steve, the nose never lies...

 

If the book is bleached with hydrogen peroxide instead of chlorites or hypochlorites, you aren't going to smell anything. Hydrogen peroxide volatilizes into moisture and oxygen after it is applied so there will be no residual odor.

[showcase4]

If the book is bleached with hydrogen peroxide instead of chlorites or hypochlorites, you aren't going to smell anything. Hydrogen peroxide volatilizes into moisture and oxygen after it is applied so there will be no residual odor.

 

 

yeah..............what he said

[ciorac]

that's a shame, that's a great cover, and that books looks better than VG to me- was he saying VG before resto? Also, I'm not put off my those types of resto, although not sure what the bleaching does (other than whiten).

 

Yeah, I thought it was a pretty solid apparent VG+. I was a little nervous about the bleaching, until FFB told me that with a professional job it is usually done in conjunction with deacidification; that me feel a little better about it and I decided to go ahead and bid. Also, according to Dave, the color inks did not seem to be affected and the pages were still supple (I was worried about having white, brittle pages ) But I just couldn't bring myself to bid any higher for a restored copy, even one that looks that nice.

 

I think this book may have gone for more than expected because Bigloo appears to grade very conservatively ...a rare a wonderful attribute. Intentional overgrading is on the same level as intentional undisclosed restoration as far as I'm concerned...just much tougher to prove (overgrading). This book looks more like an apparent Fine/Fine+

 

As for bleaching...it reminds me of pressing and/or cleaning in that if it's done well, you really can't spot it like you can a tear seal or prominant color touch. I have seen some bleached books that looked completely untouched and natural...the key is not to make the pages bright white on a 50+ year old book!...a more subtle off-white has a really authentic look to it.

 

Hopefully you'll get another shot at owning a copy of this book...they're out there

 

Re-think your position on his grading..

 

As for bleaching Steve, the nose never lies...

 

If the book is bleached with hydrogen peroxide instead of chlorites or hypochlorites, you aren't going to smell anything. Hydrogen peroxide volatilizes into moisture and oxygen after it is applied so there will be no residual odor.

 

This is true, but the absence of smell is also an indicator. I revel in the smell of golden age pages.

[FFB]

that's a shame, that's a great cover, and that books looks better than VG to me- was he saying VG before resto? Also, I'm not put off my those types of resto, although not sure what the bleaching does (other than whiten).

 

Yeah, I thought it was a pretty solid apparent VG+. I was a little nervous about the bleaching, until FFB told me that with a professional job it is usually done in conjunction with deacidification; that me feel a little better about it and I decided to go ahead and bid. Also, according to Dave, the color inks did not seem to be affected and the pages were still supple (I was worried about having white, brittle pages ) But I just couldn't bring myself to bid any higher for a restored copy, even one that looks that nice.

 

I think this book may have gone for more than expected because Bigloo appears to grade very conservatively ...a rare a wonderful attribute. Intentional overgrading is on the same level as intentional undisclosed restoration as far as I'm concerned...just much tougher to prove (overgrading). This book looks more like an apparent Fine/Fine+

 

As for bleaching...it reminds me of pressing and/or cleaning in that if it's done well, you really can't spot it like you can a tear seal or prominant color touch. I have seen some bleached books that looked completely untouched and natural...the key is not to make the pages bright white on a 50+ year old book!...a more subtle off-white has a really authentic look to it.

 

Hopefully you'll get another shot at owning a copy of this book...they're out there

 

Re-think your position on his grading..

 

As for bleaching Steve, the nose never lies...

 

If the book is bleached with hydrogen peroxide instead of chlorites or hypochlorites, you aren't going to smell anything. Hydrogen peroxide volatilizes into moisture and oxygen after it is applied so there will be no residual odor.

 

This is true, but the absence of smell is also an indicator. I revel in the smell of golden age pages.

 

I meant to say that you weren't going to smell any chemical odor. The pages will still smell like newsprint.

[Theagenes]

I just want a Buck Rogers #1 - smelly or not smelly.

[Paratrooper]

I want a scratch and sniff comic, preferrably on GGA books............

[The Black Hand ®]

So.... Would the hatred of restoration be as strong, if it didn't detract from the value of the comics, like movie poster resto for example. I'm inclined to think not. Other than with poorly done or extensive resto, we wouldn't be having this conversation I believe. Heck,I bet there are a lot of people who complain about resto but buy mostly slabs and never crack them. I think that the purist among us would always hate resto and the investors also, unless it didn't hurt the bottom line.

[Paratrooper]

I want a scratch and sniff comic, preferrably on GGA books............

 

man I crack myself up.....

 

Is it sad that I laugh at my own jokes?

[FFB]

So.... Would the hatred of restoration be as strong, if it didn't detract from the value of the comics, like movie poster resto for example. I'm inclined to think not. Other than with poorly done or extensive resto, we wouldn't be having this conversation I believe. Heck,I bet there are a lot of people who complain about resto but buy mostly slabs and never crack them. I think that the purist among us would always hate resto and the investors also, unless it didn't hurt the bottom line.

 

My personal belief (and I could be wrong about this) is that if the people who hated restoration could actually hold one of Susan Cicconi's restored copies of Action Comics #1 or Detective Comics #27 in their hands after having seen the ratty "before" version, they'd "hate" restoration a lot less. This is not to say that they'd want to collect them or even that they'd think they were worth more money than they originally thought a restored copy would be worth. It is just a thing of beauty to see a trashed key book with brittle pages and tape all over the cover that has had some flexibility restored to the paper and the ugly tape removed before it could damage the book any further. There is a real art to the restoration of comic books and to the extent that it is used to save books that are disintegrating (or darn close), it is a very good thing for the hobby.

[The Black Hand ®]

I'm all for saving key issues like Action 1 and Detective 27 from acid paper syndrome.

[showcase4]

It is just a thing of beauty to see a trashed key book with brittle pages and tape all over the cover that has had some flexibility restored to the paper and the ugly tape removed before it could damage the book any further. There is a real art to the restoration of comic books and to the extent that it is used to save books that are disintegrating (or darn close), it is a very good thing for the hobby.

 

agreed....to save a book is a great thing!

The shame is when a VG/F is restored to the apparent NM level due to greed ....now that's a book that should have been left "as is".

[FFB]

It is just a thing of beauty to see a trashed key book with brittle pages and tape all over the cover that has had some flexibility restored to the paper and the ugly tape removed before it could damage the book any further. There is a real art to the restoration of comic books and to the extent that it is used to save books that are disintegrating (or darn close), it is a very good thing for the hobby.

 

agreed....to save a book is a great thing!

The shame is when a VG/F is restored to the apparent NM level due to greed ....now that's a book that should have been left "as is".

 

I don't think that's greed (since the finished product is rarely worth much more than it was in unrestored VG/FN and it would take someone who knew nothing about restoration to miss that much work) as much as someone just wanting a super nice copy and not being able to afford it in an unrestored book. If that's what they want to do to a low grade copy (say 2.0 and below), then I say go for it. VG/FN is another animal, as that is probably a nice book already, but if it's their book and that's what they want to do, then it's their book.

 

Most VG/FN copies of ultra-keys won't undergo extensive restoration at this point anymore though. Overstreet has been discouraging restoration of books in VG or above for a long time. What I think is more likely is for a VG/FN to have a spine split sealed or something like that. My understanding is that spine splits (and tears in general) tend to expand over time and that sealing them is not just restoration, but also serves the purpose of conservation and preservation as well.

[showcase4]

It is just a thing of beauty to see a trashed key book with brittle pages and tape all over the cover that has had some flexibility restored to the paper and the ugly tape removed before it could damage the book any further. There is a real art to the restoration of comic books and to the extent that it is used to save books that are disintegrating (or darn close), it is a very good thing for the hobby.

 

agreed....to save a book is a great thing!

The shame is when a VG/F is restored to the apparent NM level due to greed ....now that's a book that should have been left "as is".

 

I don't think that's greed (since the finished product is rarely worth much more than it was in unrestored VG/FN and it would take someone who knew nothing about restoration to miss that much work) as much as someone just wanting a super nice copy and not being able to afford it in an unrestored book. If that's what they want to do to a low grade copy (say 2.0 and below), then I say go for it. VG/FN is another animal, as that is probably a nice book already, but if it's their book and that's what they want to do, then it's their book.

 

Most VG/FN copies of ultra-keys won't undergo extensive restoration at this point anymore though. Overstreet has been discouraging restoration of books in VG or above for a long time. What I think is more likely is for a VG/FN to have a spine split sealed or something like that. My understanding is that spine splits (and tears in general) tend to expand over time and that sealing them is not just restoration, but also serves the purpose of conservation and preservation as well.

 

yes FFB..you are right ( again..how do you do that? ). What I meant to say is it is a real shame when someone takes a VG/F and has it restored to the NM level because they think ( even if they are wrong ) that it can help them squueze out an extra $500 when they go to sell.