Golden Age Collector's And The Hatred Of Restoration

[bluechip]

Markings can and should be defects, but not resto

 

In total agreement there.

 

When something has a pen mark or some glue on it which doesn't improve the apperance or grade, it's not restoration. Yet I have seen many books with obvious marks and obvious glue that are somehow treated as if they do improve the grade.

 

Such things are defects, plain and simple. If, as defect, they don't change the grade, then it should not affect the grade or trigger a restored label. If they affect the grade downward, then the grade should simply be lowered without incurring a restored label.

 

It shoulld acquire a restored label if and only if it affects the apparent grade UPWARD.

[Apotheosis]

Which is not to say the poster even meant it that way. But I notice people more and more using numbers and slab colors to describe their collections, as opposed to whether their books have rarity, or significant, or great art, or sentimental value.

 

If they absolutely hate resto yes... that's true. If they don't then it's not. If someone owns a resto book then it's usually safe to say that they don't hate resto books.

 

As far as GA goes I've noticed the resto haters (Showcase and Action1kid) use the other extreme... they would rather have a lower grade unrestored then a high grade restored. Heck... I seem to remember Action1kid saying that he would rather have a 2.0 (don't remember the exact grade) unrestored Action 1 then the 8.5 restored Action 1 that metro just sold. GA collectors (true collectors... not speculators) are generally just impressed when you have certain books... regardless of grade... because of the scarcity. Some of the best comments I've received were for my mid grade books. My few high grade books usually get average comments because they're more common (which is how I could afford them).

 

It just feels like you are bashing the GA boards brains in to make us agree to what we already agree on. The percentage of resto haters in this GA board is pretty small.

 

As for not describing books by sentimental value... that's because you're still fairly new here... it's often not mentioned because it's already known. Take Timulty for example... if he threw up a scan of a Whiz #1 we would all know he's living on cloud 9... he doesn't have to say it. If Showcase popped up a Victorian age book we would know how he felt. It just takes time... you'll soon know what books are important to everyone.

[The Black Hand ®]

When you say "If I were thinning out my collection, the first books I would want to get rid of would be the restored books, no matter how minor" does that mean you'd "thin out" a minor-restored Detective 27 in favor of your gem unrestored 9.8 copies of "Wolverine Unlimited"?

 

This is where you lose me in your arguements everytime... you go to absurd extremes in your examples. .

 

 

Actually, the absurd example is kind of the point. It's meant to answer the notion that comics (or anything else) should be categorized primarily by condition numbers and state of restoration.

 

Which is not to say the poster even meant it that way. But I notice people more and more using numbers and slab colors to describe their collections, as opposed to whether their books have rarity, or significant, or great art, or sentimental value.

 

I don't buy that many slabbed books, if I do I crack them . I collect raw GA mostly. I collect books that I love. I'n not an investor class collector. I'll be happy if at the end I break even.CGC,investors and speculators and restorers could vanish from the hobby and I'd still love comic books, maybe even more. I read the books I buy. I've been collecting since the mid to late 1950's. The hobby has changed a lot since I started collecting....and not for the better.

[bluechip]

Which is not to say the poster even meant it that way. But I notice people more and more using numbers and slab colors to describe their collections, as opposed to whether their books have rarity, or significant, or great art, or sentimental value.

 

If they absolutely hate resto yes... that's true. If they don't then it's not. If someone owns a resto book then it's usually safe to say that they don't hate resto books.

 

As far as GA goes I've noticed the resto haters (Showcase and Action1kid) use the other extreme... they would rather have a lower grade unrestored then a high grade restored. Heck... I seem to remember Action1kid saying that he would rather have a 2.0 (don't remember the exact grade) unrestored Action 1 then the 8.5 restored Action 1 that metro just sold. GA collectors (true collectors... not speculators) are generally just impressed when you have certain books... regardless of grade... because of the scarcity. Some of the best comments I've received were for my mid grade books. My few high grade books usually get average comments because they're more common (which is how I could afford them).

 

It just feels like you are bashing the GA boards brains in to make us agree to what we already agree on. The percentage of resto haters in this GA board is pretty small.

 

As for not describing books by sentimental value... that's because you're still fairly new here... it's often not mentioned because it's already known. Take Timulty for example... if he threw up a scan of a Whiz #1 we would all know he's living on cloud 9... he doesn't have to say it. If Showcase popped up a Victorian age book we would know how he felt. It just takes time... you'll soon know what books are important to everyone.

 

 

Good points, all

 

 

BTW, if I appear to be trying to bash in any heads, it is just that I am attempting to get some formal acknowledgement of things most everybody seems to agree on.

 

And those are that marks and other things should be considered defefts when they do not increase the apparent grade of a book.

 

And that if we're going to disclose books are restored, we really should disclose how they were restored and by how much. Instead of treating them all essentially the same, as if the label of restoration itself was all anybody should need or want to know.

 

That seems to be the rational view, and the one shared by most, yet any attempt to put those views into practice (say, with CGC standards) gseems to et shouted down by the few.

[batman_fan]

I know for myself, the Batman's I have been upgrading are all my restored copies and lower grade stuff. Not because I hate restored books (I will have to buy restored stuff if I ever want to complete my Detective run), but I definitely like unrestored copies more than restored. The decision to restore my Batman 1 was mine. I decided to do it because it had tape on the spine and I was afraid of the long term affect of it. While the tape was being removed, I had some color touch done. It is now pretty nice now with minimum work. If I had the money, I would love a Batman 1 in 8.0 unrestored, but not happening anytime soon.

[action1kid]

Quote:// I seem to remember Action1kid saying that he would rather have a 2.0 (don't remember the exact grade) unrestored Action 1 then the 8.5 restored Action 1 that metro just sold.

I dont remember the grade either but the above statement would be correct.

Nothing wrong with restoration.It surely has a useful place in the comicbook world.

Personally speaking for myself , I just dont get the same satisfaction knowing that a comicbook isnt 100% original .... 95 or 98% original just doesnt do it for me, and I will not attempt to make my views be yours.There are situations I admit where restoration is warrented and there are situations where it certainly is not.

[action1kid]

There are certain collectibles areas where restoration is disliked even much more than in comicbooks.The baseball cards market[even the vintage stuff in particular]

restoration is looked down upon.

[showcase4]

Quote:// I seem to remember Action1kid saying that he would rather have a 2.0 (don't remember the exact grade) unrestored Action 1 then the 8.5 restored Action 1 that metro just sold.

I dont remember the grade either but the above statement would be correct.

Nothing wrong with restoration.It surely has a useful place in the comicbook world.

Personally speaking for myself , I just dont get the same satisfaction knowing that a comicbook isnt 100% original .... 95 or 98% original just doesnt do it for me, and I will not attempt to make my views be yours.There are situations I admit where restoration is warrented and there are situations where it certainly is not.

 

this is pretty much word for word my position also....but the point I would like to stress even further is the "not attempt to make my views yours" part.

 

Just because I do not and will not buy restored books, does not mean I am in anyway trying to convert others to this mindset......nothing could be further from the truth.

There seems to be that criticism cast upon us "non-restoration" guys, but it is unfounded and unfortunate. Ciorac just proudly showed us all his newly acquired Tec 1 and the book was gorgeous...beautifully restored, and I am happy for him. I am happy for everyone who gets what they want, regardless of whether I collect it myself...it is silly to think otherwise ( Bluechip....you reading this? )

[bluechip]

Quote:// I seem to remember Action1kid saying that he would rather have a 2.0 (don't remember the exact grade) unrestored Action 1 then the 8.5 restored Action 1 that metro just sold.

I dont remember the grade either but the above statement would be correct.

Nothing wrong with restoration.It surely has a useful place in the comicbook world.

Personally speaking for myself , I just dont get the same satisfaction knowing that a comicbook isnt 100% original .... 95 or 98% original just doesnt do it for me, and I will not attempt to make my views be yours.There are situations I admit where restoration is warrented and there are situations where it certainly is not.

 

this is pretty much word for word my position also....but the point I would like to stress even further is the "not attempt to make my views yours" part.

 

Just because I do not and will not buy restored books, does not mean I am in anyway trying to convert others to this mindset......nothing could be further from the truth.

There seems to be that criticism cast upon us "non-restoration" guys, but it is unfounded and unfortunate. Ciorac just proudly showed us all his newly acquired Tec 1 and the book was gorgeous...beautifully restored, and I am happy for him. I am happy for everyone who gets what they want, regardless of whether I collect it myself...it is silly to think otherwise ( Bluechip....you reading this? )

 

All of the above is easy to agree with. This sort of opinion would never make me feel that some people want to make others share anti-restoration views. But when ideas lie the one above are then augmented with things like the following

 

1) that 99.9 of all others share your views.

2) restored books must be valued at a percentage of guide or FMV stated by the anti-restoration person and that anybody who pays more is foolish.

3) It is not worth detailing the work done because all restored books are (some form of "bad")

4) the anti-restoration people expand the scope of definition to include thigns that were previously not considered restoration.

5) Anti-restoration people vigorously oppose standards that would delineate specifically what work was done (which could make some people less opposed to buying some restored books)

[showcase4]

Quote:// I seem to remember Action1kid saying that he would rather have a 2.0 (don't remember the exact grade) unrestored Action 1 then the 8.5 restored Action 1 that metro just sold.

I dont remember the grade either but the above statement would be correct.

Nothing wrong with restoration.It surely has a useful place in the comicbook world.

Personally speaking for myself , I just dont get the same satisfaction knowing that a comicbook isnt 100% original .... 95 or 98% original just doesnt do it for me, and I will not attempt to make my views be yours.There are situations I admit where restoration is warrented and there are situations where it certainly is not.

 

this is pretty much word for word my position also....but the point I would like to stress even further is the "not attempt to make my views yours" part.

 

Just because I do not and will not buy restored books, does not mean I am in anyway trying to convert others to this mindset......nothing could be further from the truth.

There seems to be that criticism cast upon us "non-restoration" guys, but it is unfounded and unfortunate. Ciorac just proudly showed us all his newly acquired Tec 1 and the book was gorgeous...beautifully restored, and I am happy for him. I am happy for everyone who gets what they want, regardless of whether I collect it myself...it is silly to think otherwise ( Bluechip....you reading this? )

 

All of the above is easy to agree with. This sort of opinion would never make me feel that some people want to make others share anti-restoration views. But when ideas lie the one above are then augmented with things like the following

 

1) that 99.9 of all others share your views.

2) restored books must be valued at a percentage of guide or FMV stated by the anti-restoration person and that anybody who pays more is foolish.

3) It is not worth detailing the work done because all restored books are (some form of "bad")

4) the anti-restoration people expand the scope of definition to include thigns that were previously not considered restoration.

5) Anti-restoration people vigorously oppose standards that would delineate specifically what work was done (which could make some people less opposed to buying some restored books)

 

 

....ahhhh, but who here on the Boards is doing this? It sounds like you are on a witch hunt, and that's OK I guess, but were is the witch?

[FFB]

So.... Would the hatred of restoration be as strong, if it didn't detract from the value of the comics, like movie poster resto for example. I'm inclined to think not. Other than with poorly done or extensive resto, we wouldn't be having this conversation I believe. Heck,I bet there are a lot of people who complain about resto but buy mostly slabs and never crack them. I think that the purist among us would always hate resto and the investors also, unless it didn't hurt the bottom line.

 

My personal belief (and I could be wrong about this) is that if the people who hated restoration could actually hold one of Susan Cicconi's restored copies of Action Comics #1 or Detective Comics #27 in their hands after having seen the ratty "before" version, they'd "hate" restoration a lot less. This is not to say that they'd want to collect them or even that they'd think they were worth more money than they originally thought a restored copy would be worth. It is just a thing of beauty to see a trashed key book with brittle pages and tape all over the cover that has had some flexibility restored to the paper and the ugly tape removed before it could damage the book any further. There is a real art to the restoration of comic books and to the extent that it is used to save books that are disintegrating (or

darn close), it is a very good thing for the hobby.

 

I agree with this statement aesthetically .

 

100% accurate! This is your best post that I have read. You have summarized, very eloquently, my feelings on the matter.

 

Well done!

 

"aesthetically "! Wow! Nicely done.

 

Yeah, but he meant to say "atheistically," or in other words, he does not accept my word as gospel.

[action1kid]

Let me answer comments 1 to 5.

 

1] certainly that is an exaggeration.I dont think 99.9 % of collectors share my view but I do think it is a healthy percentage.No one can say what the percentage is.

 

2] I am not dictating that fact.The Market is, and your not foolish to buy restored books.Hopefully you paid a price in line with the work done.

 

3] It is worth detailing every single bit of restoration.Life is just easier with a color label system.There is beauty in simplicity[and a few notes]

 

4]I personally view pressing and the removal of restoration[RESTORATION]

Those views are my own and it does have a following but is IS NOT everyone.

 

5]The only thing I oppose is a Blue label for all books.The color label system is beautifully simple and to the point.It should be supported with the appropriate notes.

[bluechip]

Here;'s a couple more that can be a bit more tricky

 

6) anti-restoation person sells a book without using the word "restored" and then sees their buyer trying to sell the very same book and describes it to their potential buyers as restored. (it's happened to me)

 

7) anti-resto person sells books as restored without mentioning they have made (or will make) a concerted effort to convince others that restored books will never increase at the same rate as unrestored. (somethig the buyer might have wanted to hear from that seller before, and not after)

 

8) anti-resto person speaks to press about how the market for old comics is "booming" and offers this "advice" to the potentioal collector/investor looking to get into it: "Don't buy restored books"

 

(not pay a fair price, not make sure it's disclosed or that you know wat you're buying, or that it's rare, or signigcant, or that you don't mind it yourself. Simply"Don't bujy restored books."

 

If I was to offer my "advice" on what not to buy, I think I'd be warning potential buyers off the sort of things that are held by many people on these boards. And I would fully expect and understand if they did not appreciate it.

[adamstrange]

Which is not to say the poster even meant it that way. But I notice people more and more using numbers and slab colors to describe their collections, as opposed to whether their books have rarity, or significant, or great art, or sentimental value.

 

If they absolutely hate resto yes... that's true. If they don't then it's not. If someone owns a resto book then it's usually safe to say that they don't hate resto books.

 

As far as GA goes I've noticed the resto haters (Showcase and Action1kid) use the other extreme... they would rather have a lower grade unrestored then a high grade restored. Heck... I seem to remember Action1kid saying that he would rather have a 2.0 (don't remember the exact grade) unrestored Action 1 then the 8.5 restored Action 1 that metro just sold. GA collectors (true collectors... not speculators) are generally just impressed when you have certain books... regardless of grade... because of the scarcity. Some of the best comments I've received were for my mid grade books. My few high grade books usually get average comments because they're more common (which is how I could afford them).

 

It just feels like you are bashing the GA boards brains in to make us agree to what we already agree on. The percentage of resto haters in this GA board is pretty small.

 

As for not describing books by sentimental value... that's because you're still fairly new here... it's often not mentioned because it's already known. Take Timulty for example... if he threw up a scan of a Whiz #1 we would all know he's living on cloud 9... he doesn't have to say it. If Showcase popped up a Victorian age book we would know how he felt. It just takes time... you'll soon know what books are important to everyone.

 

 

Good points, all

 

 

BTW, if I appear to be trying to bash in any heads, it is just that I am attempting to get some formal acknowledgement of things most everybody seems to agree on.

 

This is a comics board. On Saturday.

 

What's up with all the bashing?

 

Relax. Have a good time. Comics are fun!

[ciorac]

I don't buy that many slabbed books, if I do I crack them . I collect raw GA mostly. I collect books that I love. I'n not an investor class collector. I'll be happy if at the end I break even.CGC,investors and speculators and restorers could vanish from the hobby and I'd still love comic books, maybe even more. I read the books I buy. I've been collecting since the mid to late 1950's.

 

Beautifully said Black Hand. I agree with you completely on each of the above points.

 

[bluechip]

[

What's up with all the bashing?

 

 

 

Good point. One to keep in mind I guess when starting threads with names like "...the hatred of..."

 

 

That's why I stopped myself before starting threads called "The hatred of pre-hero DC books." and "Why you should burn your platinums."

 

Glad I didn't go there.

[showcase4]

That's why I stopped myself before starting threads called -"Why you should burn your platinums."

 

Watch it Bob ! Platinum Age books can be wonderfully rewarding if you know what you're doing ( which humbly I do ). The key with any "niche" like Platinum Age books is you have to focus on the keys, and you have to buy them right. Some of my biggest returns have been on Platinum Age keys....not that I'm focused on returns

[thedarkknight]

Okay guys. Enough is enough. The reason I called it "Golden Age Collector's And The Hatred Of Restoration" was to attract attention. I'll admit it was probably a bad idea.

 

Yet again, I will state that I did this to understand what the problem was with restoration of those who truely hate it. I thought if we could understand it, we could somehow break that stigma or address the issues.

 

This has gone riduculously out of hand. I look at this every day and feel like Victor Frankenstein. Members are being devisive and down right nasty. It is time to move on with our lives.

 

I have learned that it is not any real reason that people like or dislike restoration. One thing I have learned is that some people consider their collection related to their self asteem and that scares me. No one should connect their self worth to paper.

 

So one last time, let this thread die.

 

Or to put it more bluntly:

 

KNOCK IT OFF!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! THEY ARE COMIC BOOKS!!!!!!!!!!

[showcase4]

Okay guys. Enough is enough. The reason I called it "Golden Age Collector's And The Hatred Of Restoration" was to attract attention. I'll admit it was probably a bad idea.

 

Yet again, I will state that I did this to understand what the problem was with restoration of those who truely hate it. I thought if we could understand it, we could somehow break that stigma or address the issues.

 

This has gone riduculously out of hand. I look at this every day and feel like Victor Frankenstein. Members are being devisive and down right nasty. It is time to move on with our lives.

 

I have learned that it is not any real reason that people like or dislike restoration. One thing I have learned is that some people consider their collection related to their self asteem and that scares me. No one should connect their self worth to paper.

 

So one last time, let this thread die.

 

Or to put it more bluntly:

 

KNOCK IT OFF!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! THEY ARE COMIC BOOKS!!!!!!!!!!

 

Don't worry Darknight, there is no real anomosity here amongst posters. This is a good thread, and we are all friends at the end of the day

[FFB]

Okay guys. Enough is enough. The reason I called it "Golden Age Collector's And The Hatred Of Restoration" was to attract attention. I'll admit it was probably a bad idea.

 

Yet again, I will state that I did this to understand what the problem was with restoration of those who truely hate it. I thought if we could understand it, we could somehow break that stigma or address the issues.

 

This has gone riduculously out of hand. I look at this every day and feel like Victor Frankenstein. Members are being devisive and down right nasty. It is time to move on with our lives.

 

I have learned that it is not any real reason that people like or dislike restoration. One thing I have learned is that some people consider their collection related to their self asteem and that scares me. No one should connect their self worth to paper.

 

So one last time, let this thread die.

 

Or to put it more bluntly:

 

KNOCK IT OFF!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! THEY ARE COMIC BOOKS!!!!!!!!!!

 

Are we reading the same thread? This seems like a perfectly civil discussion to me.