Why Sellers Should Consider "0 Feedback" Bidding Policies

[BronzeBruce13]

Recently, a 0-Feedback Bidder appears to have "explored" my high bid, retracted his bid 1 minute later after taking the lead (and bidding only $5 more than his previous bid) forcing me to my max winning bid

 

 

Opinions/Information sought on…

 

• What was the bidder trying to accomplish?

 

• Is there a resonable doubt as to whether the bidder could have made a bidding mistake?

 

• Ebay policy… how close to the end of an auction can you retract a bid "Ebay legally"?

 

• If you retract any bid (that is not an obvious mistake) shouldn't the ebay system retract all of your bids on that item?

 

• If you were the winning bidder, how would you feel about the end resut… and what would you do?

 

• If you are a seller (currently without a "0- feedback" policy)… what if any actions would you take if presented with the same set of circumstances?

[Davenport]

It's a known scam technique. Here's an eBay "guide" writeup on it (see the second paragraph):

EBAY SCAMS - BID RETRACTION - HOW TO IDENTIFY THIS SCAM

 

• If you were the winning bidder, how would you feel about the end resut… and what would you do?

I'd contact the seller and tell him I was a victim of a scam, see how he wanted to deal with it. The retraction is part of the 'bid cancellation history', so he'll know you're not making it up. See if he'll sell it for your pre-bump bid.

[BronzeBruce13]

Thanks for the reply.

I'm reasonably confident that the seller in this case had no direct hand in a "bid retraction" scam, I'm more interested in the bidders motives and what the rules are for retractions that late in the game.

 

That said, if you were a (innocent) seller and were presented with the same circumstances… what conclusions would you arrive at, and what actions would you take with regards to both the underbidder and winning bidder… and what steps would you take with future auctions? I'm very interested in opinons on these questions.

[1koko]

As an innocent seller my conclusion would be that the bidder was trying to minimise my return on the auction and his price. He is trying to find out your max without getting into a bidding war. His shill bidder overbids and then retracts and towards the end of the auction he bids to win the auction using his normal id.

 

A seller can do little about this as he can stop the 0 feedback bidder by excluding him but at this stage it is after the fact. You can't exclude the winning bidder as you can't link the 0 feedback bidder to the actual winner.

[mar-vell]

Bruce- how much extra did you actually spend because of this retraction?-Dave

[Davenport]

 

That said, if you were a (innocent) seller and were presented with the same circumstances… what conclusions would you arrive at, and what actions would you take with regards to both the underbidder and winning bidder… and what steps would you take with future auctions? I'm very interested in opinons on these questions.

If it happened, and I wasn't willing to sell it for the pre-bumped bid, I'd tell the high bidder something like "I'm truly sorry, and we're both victims since I lose the sale, have to go through the eBay fee recovery process, and report that zero-feedback member."

 

Unfortunately eBay doesn't allow blocking of zero-feedback members.

 

I still can't imagine what the point is if it was an 'accident'. That second not-quite-high-enough-and-knowing-it bid, placed after the retraction, seems like a tell. Why raise a losing bid to a higher losing bid?

[BronzeBruce13]

As an innocent seller without any current bidding policy in place to protect legitimate bidders from these situations, would you decide to add some form of "0/low feedback" bidding policy for future auctions?

 

 

 

As an innocent seller my conclusion would be that the bidder was trying to minimise my return on the auction and his price. He is trying to find out your max without getting into a bidding war. His shill bidder overbids and then retracts and towards the end of the auction he bids to win the auction using his normal id.

 

A seller can do little about this as he can stop the 0 feedback bidder by excluding him but at this stage it is after the fact. You can't exclude the winning bidder as you can't link the 0 feedback bidder to the actual winner.

[kc120us]

Thanks for the reply.

I'm reasonably confident that the seller in this case had no direct hand in a "bid retraction" scam, I'm more interested in the bidders motives and what the rules are for retractions that late in the game.

 

That said, if you were a (innocent) seller and were presented with the same circumstances… what conclusions would you arrive at, and what actions would you take with regards to both the underbidder and winning bidder… and what steps would you take with future auctions? I'm very interested in opinons on these questions.

 

It strikes me as odd that the other bidder would push you up to your max, outbid you, than retract it, then place a second bid that was just under your max.If the zero bidder was serious about winning the auction, he would've let his outbid stand and win the auction. If the price (your max) was too much for him to pay, then he should have retracted all of his bids. It doesn't make any sense unless he was working for the seller. I usally ask all bidders with less than 10 feedback to email me prior to bidding to gage their seriousness. If it was me selling, and the winning bidder was unhappy with such circumstances, I'd be willing to settle for the bidder's bid prior to the bump. But, I'd keep that buyers ID on record in case something similar happens in another auction with the same bidder.

 

Casey

[BronzeBruce13]

Not much at all in this case Dave… $9/$10, but the amount I lost is not the point here.

The underbidders conduct/motives, what ebay rules may be in place to protect bidders from this activity, and what "after the fact" reactions and actions would you take if you were both the winning bidder or seller

 

That said, what if it was you in the same situation, but the amount lost to this activity was $30? How would Dave feel and what would he like to see happen?

 

 

 

 

Bruce- how much extra did you actually spend because of this retraction?-Dave

[the_Greatest]

Thanks for the reply.

I'm reasonably confident that the seller in this case had no direct hand in a "bid retraction" scam, I'm more interested in the bidders motives and what the rules are for retractions that late in the game.

 

That said, if you were a (innocent) seller and were presented with the same circumstances… what conclusions would you arrive at, and what actions would you take with regards to both the underbidder and winning bidder… and what steps would you take with future auctions? I'm very interested in opinons on these questions.

 

It strikes me as odd that the other bidder would push you up to your max, outbid you, than retract it, then place a second bid that was just under your max. If the zero bidder was serious about winning the auction, he would've let his outbid stand and win the auction. If the price (your max) was too much for him to pay, then he should have retracted all of his bids. It doesn't make any sense unless he was working for the seller. I usally ask all bidders with less than 10 feedback to email me prior to bidding to gage their seriousness. If it was me selling, and the winning bidder was unhappy with such circumstances, I'd be willing to settle for the bidder's bid prior to the bump. But, I'd keep that buyers ID on record in case something similar happens in another auction with the same bidder.

 

Casey

 

Where do you see that?

The $74.99 bid was placed before the retracted bid of $79.99.

This guy also seems to be winning big $ auctions the last few days.

It may just be a goofy noobie.

[BronzeBruce13]

valuable response Davenport… I had not really considered the seller a potential victim, but in some cases that could be the case too as other legit bidders may avoid the auction because of "apparent" shill or scam activity.

 

In my case, I viewed only myself as a victim because of how it transpired. That said, If my "explored" current bid was substantially lower than my intended "end bid" and I then won it for $5 more than the 0-Feedback Bidder pushed me too (because others avoided a suspect auction) then the seller could be the victim.

 

In that case, does the seller have the option of "not selling" to the high bidder if he has no "0 feedback" bidding policies in place?

 

and, on the other hand… should the seller consider (all/any) of the underbidders bids valid if he wishes to take the end result?

 

 

If it happened, and I wasn't willing to sell it for the pre-bumped bid, I'd tell the high bidder something like "I'm truly sorry, and we're both victims since I lose the sale, have to go through the eBay fee recovery process, and report that zero-feedback member."

 

Unfortunately eBay doesn't allow blocking of zero-feedback members.

 

I still can't imagine what the point is if it was an 'accident'. That second not-quite-high-enough-and-knowing-it bid, placed after the retraction, seems like a tell. Why raise a losing bid to a higher losing bid?

[the_Greatest]

Does Ebay let you cancel a winning snipe bid from a zero-10 feedback bidder if you have asked in the description for all "less than 10's" to email you first?

[kc120us]

Thanks for the reply.

I'm reasonably confident that the seller in this case had no direct hand in a "bid retraction" scam, I'm more interested in the bidders motives and what the rules are for retractions that late in the game.

 

That said, if you were a (innocent) seller and were presented with the same circumstances… what conclusions would you arrive at, and what actions would you take with regards to both the underbidder and winning bidder… and what steps would you take with future auctions? I'm very interested in opinons on these questions.

 

It strikes me as odd that the other bidder would push you up to your max, outbid you, than retract it, then place a second bid that was just under your max. If the zero bidder was serious about winning the auction, he would've let his outbid stand and win the auction. If the price (your max) was too much for him to pay, then he should have retracted all of his bids. It doesn't make any sense unless he was working for the seller. I usally ask all bidders with less than 10 feedback to email me prior to bidding to gage their seriousness. If it was me selling, and the winning bidder was unhappy with such circumstances, I'd be willing to settle for the bidder's bid prior to the bump. But, I'd keep that buyers ID on record in case something similar happens in another auction with the same bidder.

 

Casey

 

Where do you see that?

The $74.99 bid was placed before the retracted bid of $79.99.

This guy also seems to be winning big $ auctions the last few days.

It may just be a goofy noobie.

 

My mistake he made two under bids then outbid Bruce, then retracted the outbid. It still smells fishy. He made two bids that were below Bruce's max. At this time he knew he was outbid by Bruce. The he places a third bid that beats out Bruce's bid. What was he tryng to do? Not win the auction?

[mar-vell]

Not much at all in this case Dave… $9, but the amount I lost is not the point here.

The underbidders conduct/motives, what ebay rules may be in place to protect bidders from this activity, and what "after the fact" reactions and actions would you take if you were both the winning bidder or seller

 

That said, what if it was you in the same situation, but the amount lost to this activity was $30? How would Dave feel and what would he like to see happen?

 

 

 

 

Bruce- how much extra did you actually spend because of this retraction?-Dave

 

i do agree the amount isn't really the point but it was just a little unclear with the info provided! As for my reaction it depends on my mood on a low $ transaction like this! If it rubs the wrong way and i get angry i sure would contact ebay and the seller and see what action can be taken but then again if i am pressed for time or for some reason it just doesn't fire me up i might let it slide. I guess i contradict myself a little saying the $$$ isn't really the point because if the guy cost me several hundred $$$ i wouldbe all over it!

[the_Greatest]

Thanks for the reply.

I'm reasonably confident that the seller in this case had no direct hand in a "bid retraction" scam, I'm more interested in the bidders motives and what the rules are for retractions that late in the game.

 

That said, if you were a (innocent) seller and were presented with the same circumstances… what conclusions would you arrive at, and what actions would you take with regards to both the underbidder and winning bidder… and what steps would you take with future auctions? I'm very interested in opinons on these questions.

 

It strikes me as odd that the other bidder would push you up to your max, outbid you, than retract it, then place a second bid that was just under your max. If the zero bidder was serious about winning the auction, he would've let his outbid stand and win the auction. If the price (your max) was too much for him to pay, then he should have retracted all of his bids. It doesn't make any sense unless he was working for the seller. I usally ask all bidders with less than 10 feedback to email me prior to bidding to gage their seriousness. If it was me selling, and the winning bidder was unhappy with such circumstances, I'd be willing to settle for the bidder's bid prior to the bump. But, I'd keep that buyers ID on record in case something similar happens in another auction with the same bidder.

 

Casey

 

Where do you see that?

The $74.99 bid was placed before the retracted bid of $79.99.

This guy also seems to be winning big $ auctions the last few days.

It may just be a goofy noobie.

 

My mistake he made two under bids then outbid Bruce, then retracted the outbid. It still smells fishy. He made two bids that were below Bruce's max. At this time he knew he was outbid by Bruce. The he places a third bid that beats out Bruce's bid. What was he tryng to do? Not win the auction?

 

I always like to give people the benefit of the doubt if there isn't really obvious shill evidence in their bid history.

I just think there's a very slight chance he bid and then realised he didn't want to buy the book that high.

Obviously, the "74.99" and "79.99" bids are not good signs, neither is the fact a noobie knew how to retract bids so soon after starting his Ebay life.

Probably a banned former ID.

[BronzeBruce13]

Great question… I have no idea.

I have not sold on Ebay for a long time. I'm not up on all the current seller rules and options in these cases. This is the first time in a long time that I've encountered and been harmed (however minimally in this case) by such activity. Hence the post.

 

I'm trying to determine what the rules are and how other buyers and seller would view the situation

 

I have a hard time believing that this "noob" was not "exploring" my bid when he took the lead. Maybe he didn't expect to take the lead and had "bidders remorse" or was trying to push me to my max as "punishment" for outbidding him… who knows… but its fishy.

[the_Greatest]

Great question… I have no idea.

I have not sold on Ebay for a long time. I'm not up on all the current seller rules and options in these cases. This is the first time in a long time that I've encountered and been harmed (however how minimally in this case) by such activity. Hence the post.

 

I'm trying to determine what the rules are and how other buyers and seller would view the situation

 

I have a hard time believing that this "noob" was not "exploring" by bid and when he took the lead . Maybe he didn't expect to take the lead and had "bidders remorse" or was trying to push me to my max as "punishment" for outbidding him… who knows… but its fishy.

 

It is fishy, and I just learned from your other thread that you can't see non winning bids in a bidder search any longer.

That is not good news.

[Timmay]

Shill on a fishing trip, plain and simple. I would let the seller 2nd chance offer this shill, and if not only offer $67, which is what it would have ended up at had this bidder not been involved. OR, you can report this to ebay, move along, and not buy it (I wouldn't on this one).

[Davenport]

valuable response Davenport… I had not really considered the seller a potential victim, but in some cases that could be the case too as other legit bidders may avoid the auction because of "apparent" shill or scam activity.

 

In my case, I viewed only myself as a victim because of how it transpired. That said, If my "explored" current bid was substantially lower than my intended "end bid" and I then won it for $5 more than the 0-Bidder pushed me too (because others avoided a suspect auction) then the seller could be the victim.

 

In that case, does the seller have the option of "not selling" to the high bidder if he has not bidding policies in place?

 

and, on the other hand… should the seller consider (all/any) of the underbidders bids valid if he wishes to take the end result?

 

I think Sellers can open an official Dispute, and go through that eBay process to void fishy-wins. Both sides can have their say and "mutually agree" to a conclusion (and fees are refunded).

Or not.

 

But at least a seller can make sure eBay is fully aware of his reasoning, every communication sent back and forth, and how he conducted himself during the whole dispute process.

[the_Greatest]

I always assume that shill bidder questions are in regards to the seller.

My mistake.

On second review of the bids, it is without doubt clear that "d.andr.comics " switched over to his shill account to find out what the high bid was.

Look at the timing on the bids. Fifteen minutes later his zero account takes over the $4-5 dollar bumps.

 

Report him Bruce, this is pretty cut and dried.