Questions for CGC and the Liason Committee

[FFB]

Especially since it has become abunfdantly clear that people on both sides of the purple label debate (pro and con) consider the label a deliberate and concerted attempt to put a stigma on restored books. That the whole idea behind them wasx to get people to have an emotional reaction and to avoid them even if they were not inclined to avoid them before.

 

It simplty it is not supposed to be the job of a responsible, unbiased third party grading system to tty to get people to have an emotional reaction to something. And it is not the job oif a third party grading system to get involved in trying to discenr th eintent behind a defect or to punish people for that supposed intent.

 

I'm not a fan of the PLOD or the GLOD, but you're the ONLY person I've heard suggest that the PLOD was/is a deliberate attempt to stigmatize restored books. Can you specifically name those "on both sides of the purple label debate" who agree with you on this?

 

I've definitely seen it suggested a few times before bluechip recently started ranting about it.

 

Let's try to be specific here. In my mind, it's a ridiculous accusation. How does CGC gain from stigmatizing restored books? Aren't collectors less likely to submit a book that they fear might receive a purple label?

 

In a previous post(in another thread), bluechip suggested that Steve Borock sold off his restored books and then made a concerted effort to stigmatize restored books. Apparently to devalue them so he can buy them up at a later date for a fraction of the cost.

 

Ridiculous, baseless, and highly irresponsible accusations.

 

I should clarify that the part of my post in BOLD above was what I inferred from bluechip's posts, as I saw no other possible reason why he would think Steve would benefit from setting out to reduce the value of restored books, if not to take advantage of that situation to buy them up.

 

In the 5 emails bluechip has sent me since he received the strike , he has made it very clear that he did not mean to infer that. I've gone back and re-read his posts, and what's clear is that he believes that by setting out to reduce the value of restored books, Steve was thereby increasing the value of the blue labels in his personal collection.

 

Either way, bluechip is accusing Steve of market manipulation for his own financial benefit, and I still think it's NONSENSE.

 

FT is absolutely correct. The market decided how to value PLODS, not CGC, and not Steve Borock.

 

Wow, I must have missed the part where Bluechip said that. (I usually just skim his posts these days when he starts ranting about the purple label, even though I agree with him that the purple label is a bad idea.) Anyway, it's well known that Steve sold all of his comics when he started at CGC, and that all he has now are new issues (moderns) that he reads on an ongoing basis. He collects original art, not vintage comics. So either way, Bluechip is wrong. And if that was what he meant to imply, then I take back what I said about him not deserving a strike.

[garthgantu]

I'll just say this: I've known and dealt with bluechips for several years now, and have always found him to be very upstanding and honest.

 

Seems like the original statement that Steve B. was motivated to facilitate the devaluation of restored books due to a conflict with someone in the industry got lumped in with inferences from other of bluechip's posts...? Even that seems like a tenuous motive for the purple 'restored' label that CGC ended up using.

 

I always assume that all material decisions from CGC are driven by money. Any other motive or rationale seems less likely.

 

Maybe the real point to consider here is that by putting restored books in purple labels, CGC elevated the status of unrestored books in blue labels...that in fact the idea of 'stigmatizing' restored books was simply designed to further set unrestored books apart as better. Can't argue that this has happened... and it has happened to CGC's benefit, if indirectly. Higher values of slabbed books in general will attract more submitters with more books.

 

I do think that having a different colored label is not helping restored books, but the alternative seems dangerous, at least for newcomers to our hobby... If you're a relatively new collector and you see a Daredevil 1 in 6.0 in a blue label selling for $600 and a Daredevil 1 in 6.0 in a blue label selling for $250 (because it's restored), wouldn't you buy the lower-priced book? How much homework should someone have to do in order to safely enter the hobby?

[esquirecomics]

Personally I have absolutely no problem with a distinguishing purple label to indicate restoration. I think it makes perfect sense to make it easier for people to identify the difference between an unrestored and restored book. The problem is that restoration has received such an undeserved stigma. I don't attribute that unfortunate occurrence to anything CGC intended, although the existence of CGC contributed to the realization of how many restored books existed that had been sold as unrestored.

 

I don't think there is anything wrong with a restored book. I wouldn't purchase anything other than with slight restoration for investment purposes (and I think slightly restored books are an untapped investment market for anyone with extra cash), but that is more a reflection of the current market than my own personal opinion as to how it should be.

 

Frankly, I wish CGC, Gemstone, CBG and others within the community would undertake a concerted effort to destigmatize restoration, but they have done little to nothing. I am very surprised that those engaged in restoration as a business have also done little to nothing either.

 

I would not be surprised if the NOD would try to tackle this matter at some point in the future.

[Forbush-Man]

Frankly, I wish CGC, Gemstone, CBG and others within the community would undertake a concerted effort to destigmatize restoration, but they have done little to nothing. I am very surprised that those engaged in restoration as a business have also done little to nothing either.

 

I would not be surprised if the NOD would try to tackle this matter at some point in the future.

 

 

 

Might as well have used stop sign red as the color: The Purple label has the same effect.

 

"I don't think anyone anticipated the breach of the Levee's" on that one.

[Sid]

Personally I have absolutely no problem with a distinguishing purple label to indicate restoration. I think it makes perfect sense to make it easier for people to identify the difference between an unrestored and restored book. The problem is that restoration has received such an undeserved stigma. I don't attribute that unfortunate occurrence to anything CGC intended, although the existence of CGC contributed to the realization of how many restored books existed that had been sold as unrestored.

 

I don't think there is anything wrong with a restored book. I wouldn't purchase anything other than with slight restoration for investment purposes (and I think slightly restored books are an untapped investment market for anyone with extra cash), but that is more a reflection of the current market than my own personal opinion as to how it should be.

 

Frankly, I wish CGC, Gemstone, CBG and others within the community would undertake a concerted effort to destigmatize restoration, but they have done little to nothing. I am very surprised that those engaged in restoration as a business have also done little to nothing either.

 

I would not be surprised if the NOD would try to tackle this matter at some point in the future.

 

Yes Yes Yes Yes

[FFB]

I'll just say this: I've known and dealt with bluechips for several years now, and have always found him to be very upstanding and honest.

 

Seems like the original statement that Steve B. was motivated to facilitate the devaluation of restored books due to a conflict with someone in the industry got lumped in with inferences from other of bluechip's posts...? Even that seems like a tenuous motive for the purple 'restored' label that CGC ended up using.

 

I always assume that all material decisions from CGC are driven by money. Any other motive or rationale seems less likely.

 

Maybe the real point to consider here is that by putting restored books in purple labels, CGC elevated the status of unrestored books in blue labels...that in fact the idea of 'stigmatizing' restored books was simply designed to further set unrestored books apart as better. Can't argue that this has happened... and it has happened to CGC's benefit, if indirectly. Higher values of slabbed books in general will attract more submitters with more books.

 

I do think that having a different colored label is not helping restored books, but the alternative seems dangerous, at least for newcomers to our hobby... If you're a relatively new collector and you see a Daredevil 1 in 6.0 in a blue label selling for $600 and a Daredevil 1 in 6.0 in a blue label selling for $250 (because it's restored), wouldn't you buy the lower-priced book? How much homework should someone have to do in order to safely enter the hobby?

 

Anyone who is spending more than $100 on a comic book owes it to himself to get a copy of the Overstreet guide and read it -- and in doing so, learn about restoration and know to watch out for it. If a blue "restored" label were to have an appropriately placed, separate restoration score clearly visible on the label, a buyer would be in no worse position buying that book (and indeed, would probably be in a better position) than he would if he were buying a raw restored book sold with disclosure.

 

Let me repeat that so that I make sure you get it this time: If a blue "restored" label were to have an appropriately placed, separate restoration score clearly visible on the label, a buyer would be in no worse position buying that book (and indeed, would probably be in a better position) than he would if he were buying a raw restored book sold with disclosure. THIS (raw) is how the vast majority of restored books are sold anyway.

 

Assuming your last question isn't a rhetorical one, I'll answer it. And the answer is: A LOT. I have no sympathy for people who come flying into this hobby with more money than common sense and then yell and scream if they lose money.

 

This is not to say that I am in favor of people who rip others off, but the free-spending neophyte has to accept responsibility just as he would if he jumped headfirst into the stock market without educating himself first. There is no free lunch, and those who go through life expecting others to hold their hands and keep them safe will ultimately be disappointed.

 

It is unrealistic to expect everyone else in the hobby to be paternalistically protective toward those who have not bothered to put the same effort into learning the things they should. You don't cover for the slackers like that in your everyday job, and nor do most other people. Don't be so surprised that this idealistically altruistic pipe dream hasn't completely taken over the comic book business.

[Foolkiller]

Agree with Scott's comments above... if you entered the coin market or antiques, I think you'd have to do similar research to ensure you weren't being ripped off either.

 

Whenever you are putting a large amount of money anywhere, the wise thing to do is to make sure you are comfortable with what you are spending and getting what you paid for. Doing a little research to determine WHY the one book is lower price does not require a ton of effort.

[FlyingDonut]

the free-spending neophyte has to accept responsibility just as he would if he jumped headfirst into the stock market without educating himself first. There is no free lunch, and those who go through life expecting others to hold their hands and keep them safe will ultimately be disappointed.

 

It is unrealistic to expect everyone else in the hobby to be paternalistically protective toward those who have not bothered to put the same effort into learning the things they should. You don't cover for the slackers like that in your everyday job, and nor do most other people. Don't be so surprised that this idealistically altruistic pipe dream hasn't completely taken over the comic book business.

 

[drbanner]

Purple labels are not a bad idea...they are part of the concept of 'easy identification'...and they were not 'designed' to induce hysteria amongst buyers. The buyers did that all by themselves. Remember this...restored book values have not particularly fallen, but unrestored books have taken large leaps forward, extending the differential.

 

Agree with this...are restored books selling for less now than they were pre-2000? I don't think so, but as Nick says, they have not appreciated in the same fashion as unrestored books have.

[Mr. Zipper]

I'll just say this: I've known and dealt with bluechips for several years now, and have always found him to be very upstanding and honest.

 

Seems like the original statement that Steve B. was motivated to facilitate the devaluation of restored books due to a conflict with someone in the industry got lumped in with inferences from other of bluechip's posts...? Even that seems like a tenuous motive for the purple 'restored' label that CGC ended up using.

 

I always assume that all material decisions from CGC are driven by money. Any other motive or rationale seems less likely.

 

Maybe the real point to consider here is that by putting restored books in purple labels, CGC elevated the status of unrestored books in blue labels...that in fact the idea of 'stigmatizing' restored books was simply designed to further set unrestored books apart as better. Can't argue that this has happened... and it has happened to CGC's benefit, if indirectly. Higher values of slabbed books in general will attract more submitters with more books.

 

I do think that having a different colored label is not helping restored books, but the alternative seems dangerous, at least for newcomers to our hobby... If you're a relatively new collector and you see a Daredevil 1 in 6.0 in a blue label selling for $600 and a Daredevil 1 in 6.0 in a blue label selling for $250 (because it's restored), wouldn't you buy the lower-priced book? How much homework should someone have to do in order to safely enter the hobby?

 

Anyone who is spending more than $100 on a comic book owes it to himself to get a copy of the Overstreet guide and read it -- and in doing so, learn about restoration and know to watch out for it. If a blue "restored" label were to have an appropriately placed, separate restoration score clearly visible on the label, a buyer would be in no worse position buying that book (and indeed, would probably be in a better position) than he would if he were buying a raw restored book sold with disclosure.

 

Let me repeat that so that I make sure you get it this time: If a blue "restored" label were to have an appropriately placed, separate restoration score clearly visible on the label, a buyer would be in no worse position buying that book (and indeed, would probably be in a better position) than he would if he were buying a raw restored book sold with disclosure. THIS (raw) is how the vast majority of restored books are sold anyway.

 

Assuming your last question isn't a rhetorical one, I'll answer it. And the answer is: A LOT. I have no sympathy for people who come flying into this hobby with more money than common sense and then yell and scream if they lose money.

 

This is not to say that I am in favor of people who rip others off, but the free-spending neophyte has to accept responsibility just as he would if he jumped headfirst into the stock market without educating himself first. There is no free lunch, and those who go through life expecting others to hold their hands and keep them safe will ultimately be disappointed.

 

It is unrealistic to expect everyone else in the hobby to be paternalistically protective toward those who have not bothered to put the same effort into learning the things they should. You don't cover for the slackers like that in your everyday job, and nor do most other people. Don't be so surprised that this idealistically altruistic pipe dream hasn't completely taken over the comic book business.

 

I couldn't agree more.

[Davenport]

How much homework should someone have to do in order to safely enter the hobby?

 

Anyone who is spending more than $100 on a comic book owes it to himself to get a copy of the Overstreet guide and read it -- and in doing so, learn about restoration and know to watch out for it. If a blue "restored" label were to have an appropriately placed, separate restoration score clearly visible on the label, a buyer would be in no worse position buying that book (and indeed, would probably be in a better position) than he would if he were buying a raw restored book sold with disclosure.

 

Let me repeat that so that I make sure you get it this time: If a blue "restored" label were to have an appropriately placed, separate restoration score clearly visible on the label, a buyer would be in no worse position buying that book (and indeed, would probably be in a better position) than he would if he were buying a raw restored book sold with disclosure. THIS (raw) is how the vast majority of restored books are sold anyway.

Agreed. A blue label sporting those large bold white letters "CGC RESTORED GRADE" across the top would alert, without adding the (unintended?) stigma of an oddball color.

 

Assuming your last question isn't a rhetorical one, I'll answer it. And the answer is: A LOT. I have no sympathy for people who come flying into this hobby with more money than common sense and then yell and scream if they lose money.

 

This is not to say that I am in favor of people who rip others off, but the free-spending neophyte has to accept responsibility just as he would if he jumped headfirst into the stock market without educating himself first. There is no free lunch, and those who go through life expecting others to hold their hands and keep them safe will ultimately be disappointed.

 

It is unrealistic to expect everyone else in the hobby to be paternalistically protective toward those who have not bothered to put the same effort into learning the things they should. You don't cover for the slackers like that in your everyday job, and nor do most other people. Don't be so surprised that this idealistically altruistic pipe dream hasn't completely taken over the comic book business.

Why and how people become comic collectors make the hobby very unique IMHO, compared to stocks, coins, and antiques. An average fan-collector may approach the market from a love of the stories, art, characters, and nostalgia. And hobby publications like Overstreet and CBG have a minimal baseline level of information about preditory practices. A hobbiest could leave a bookstore with an armload of collecting guides and reference books and never come across any indepth articles about the Ewert fiasco or the Manufactured Grade phenomenon. So while it's reasonable to expect collectors to educate themselves, some mercy should be extended toward new or just returning hobbiests. The level of due diligence needed seems beyond the beyond at times.

 

And, as evidenced by recent threads, even fully informed seasoned collectors, in at the tens of thousands of dollars level, can still get their clocks cleaned. One mis-step and anyone could fall prey. I'd be very surprised if Bob Overstreet himself didn't have more than a few shark-bite tales to tell.

[esquirecomics]

I am very surprised that those engaged in restoration as a business have also done little to nothing either.

 

One clarifying point for better accuracy.

 

Tracey Heft is now being proactive in the education realm of restoration as evidenced by his new e-book. I wholeheartedly applaud his efforts!!!

 

Information on Tracey Heft's New Restoration Book

 

I also want to add something I forgot to note initially about the purple label. I think a sliding scale to denote how extensive or minimal the restoration might be is a good idea, but I was not very enthusiastic about the proposed CGC scale. I would have proposed it differently.

[esquirecomics]

This is not to say that I am in favor of people who rip others off, but the free-spending neophyte has to accept responsibility just as he would if he jumped headfirst into the stock market without educating himself first. There is no free lunch, and those who go through life expecting others to hold their hands and keep them safe will ultimately be disappointed.

 

It is unrealistic to expect everyone else in the hobby to be paternalistically protective toward those who have not bothered to put the same effort into learning the things they should. You don't cover for the slackers like that in your everyday job, and nor do most other people. Don't be so surprised that this idealistically altruistic pipe dream hasn't completely taken over the comic book business.

 

In general I agree with your comments Scott. It should be everyone's responsibility to make an effort to educate themselves about the particulars of the community they are entering.

 

But there many pitfalls in every community - including this one - where the problems or concerns on the minimalistic side to the outright fraud on the extreme side are hidden from plain view.

 

Therefore, it is incumbent upon "someone" to ensure the necessary educational information is available so that those who do decide to enter can find the information when they make their reasonable effort.

 

Some of us prefer to identify the placement of the trip wire, if not remove it completely, before the person actually detonates the bomb and then say, "well, you should have been more careful and watched your step."

 

But,obviously, that is a personal choice for people to make. Personally, I prefer to try and help people, pipe dream or not.

[ciorac]

I am very surprised that those engaged in restoration as a business have also done little to nothing either.

 

One clarifying point for better accuracy.

 

Tracey Heft is now being proactive in the education realm of restoration as evidenced by his new e-book. I wholeheartedly applaud his efforts!!!

 

Information on Tracey Heft's New Restoration Book

 

I also want to add something I forgot to note initially about the purple label. I think a sliding scale to denote how extensive or minimal the restoration might be is a good idea, but I was not very enthusiastic about the proposed CGC scale. I would have proposed it differently.

 

Matt Nelson has lobbied CGC for a restoration scale and has provided supporting detail for it as well. I can't blame the resto experts for there not being a change in how CGC labels restored books.

 

I have repeatedly indicated a willingness to work with anyone to establish a 10 point system for restoration. I think it is a critical component of the hobby going forward.

[nearmint]

Matt Nelson has lobbied CGC for a restoration scale and has provided supporting detail for it as well. I can't blame the resto experts for there not being a change in how CGC labels restored books.

 

I have repeatedly indicated a willingness to work with anyone to establish a 10 point system for restoration. I think it is a critical component of the hobby going forward.

 

Agreed.

[whomerjay]

I'll just say this: I've known and dealt with bluechips for several years now, and have always found him to be very upstanding and honest.

 

Seems like the original statement that Steve B. was motivated to facilitate the devaluation of restored books due to a conflict with someone in the industry got lumped in with inferences from other of bluechip's posts...? Even that seems like a tenuous motive for the purple 'restored' label that CGC ended up using.

 

I always assume that all material decisions from CGC are driven by money. Any other motive or rationale seems less likely.

 

Maybe the real point to consider here is that by putting restored books in purple labels, CGC elevated the status of unrestored books in blue labels...that in fact the idea of 'stigmatizing' restored books was simply designed to further set unrestored books apart as better. Can't argue that this has happened... and it has happened to CGC's benefit, if indirectly. Higher values of slabbed books in general will attract more submitters with more books.

 

I do think that having a different colored label is not helping restored books, but the alternative seems dangerous, at least for newcomers to our hobby... If you're a relatively new collector and you see a Daredevil 1 in 6.0 in a blue label selling for $600 and a Daredevil 1 in 6.0 in a blue label selling for $250 (because it's restored), wouldn't you buy the lower-priced book? How much homework should someone have to do in order to safely enter the hobby?

 

Anyone who is spending more than $100 on a comic book owes it to himself to get a copy of the Overstreet guide and read it -- and in doing so, learn about restoration and know to watch out for it. If a blue "restored" label were to have an appropriately placed, separate restoration score clearly visible on the label, a buyer would be in no worse position buying that book (and indeed, would probably be in a better position) than he would if he were buying a raw restored book sold with disclosure.

 

Let me repeat that so that I make sure you get it this time: If a blue "restored" label were to have an appropriately placed, separate restoration score clearly visible on the label, a buyer would be in no worse position buying that book (and indeed, would probably be in a better position) than he would if he were buying a raw restored book sold with disclosure. THIS (raw) is how the vast majority of restored books are sold anyway.

 

Assuming your last question isn't a rhetorical one, I'll answer it. And the answer is: A LOT. I have no sympathy for people who come flying into this hobby with more money than common sense and then yell and scream if they lose money.

 

This is not to say that I am in favor of people who rip others off, but the free-spending neophyte has to accept responsibility just as he would if he jumped headfirst into the stock market without educating himself first. There is no free lunch, and those who go through life expecting others to hold their hands and keep them safe will ultimately be disappointed.

 

It is unrealistic to expect everyone else in the hobby to be paternalistically protective toward those who have not bothered to put the same effort into learning the things they should. You don't cover for the slackers like that in your everyday job, and nor do most other people. Don't be so surprised that this idealistically altruistic pipe dream hasn't completely taken over the comic book business.

 

I've seen the types in both cards and comics who foolishly dive in and blow big bucks on stuff because a friend of a friend told them it will make them money. These people are lost causes no matter what you tell them.

 

But there needs to be some degree of protection of the neophyte from the egregious, tough-to-identify frauds that are plentiful in this hobby, otherwise we'd lose a lot of potential long term players who'd bolster the hobby. Need we protect everyone by warning them upfront about NDP and Mile High 2 books? no. heritage crack and reslab game? we might but prob no. About comic-keys and Ewert? yes.

 

The way I see it is if we don't make some effort very few newbies will stick with this hobby. For many, it takes just one bad experience and they're done. Without the benefit of some paternalistic protection, my advice to most who are looking to get into the hobby and spend more than lunch money would be "spend 2 years reading the CGC before you spend a dime" or "don't get started unless you can accept getting reamed several times". Not attractive options.

[adamstrange]

This is not to say that I am in favor of people who rip others off, but the free-spending neophyte has to accept responsibility just as he would if he jumped headfirst into the stock market without educating himself first. There is no free lunch, and those who go through life expecting others to hold their hands and keep them safe will ultimately be disappointed.

 

You sure you're a lawyer.

[adamstrange]

Frankly, I wish CGC, Gemstone, CBG and others within the community would undertake a concerted effort to destigmatize restoration, but they have done little to nothing. I am very surprised that those engaged in restoration as a business have also done little to nothing either.

 

I would not be surprised if the NOD would try to tackle this matter at some point in the future

 

The view of restored books is a matter of opinion and, hardly, to my mind, rises to the level at which the various organizations that you outline above should enter into any concerted campaign around destigmatizing (a term that you've not carefully defined -- I would love for you to clarify).

 

I'm not seeing extreme positions being taken by any of the groups to stigmatize restored books, though certainly CGC does segregate them without providing the extra documentation on the books that is being requested. Nor have the consequences of destigmatization been spelled out.

 

Back in the early 90s when resto was less "stigmatized", far more books were restored resulting in fewer untouched books (and many resto techniques are impossible to reverse in a way that returns the book to it's prior state). For those collectors that prefer untouched books, and I would contend these will exist in substantial numbers though not necessarily a majority, this has already permanently reduced the pool of books to collect from. A collector with this mindset would be opposed to de-stigmatization because it has a direct adverse impact from their point of view.

 

What I would suggest on this or any other similar matter is that the people that care about destigmatizing make their point through their words and actions. If you think restoration is great then both show why and buy them. If you want formal organizations to adopt different positions than they do today, you'll encounter less opposition if you focus first on those areas in common with the greatest number of collectors and with positions that don't permanently impact those who disagree. Just a thought.

[Sid]

I am very surprised that those engaged in restoration as a business have also done little to nothing either.

 

One clarifying point for better accuracy.

 

Tracey Heft is now being proactive in the education realm of restoration as evidenced by his new e-book. I wholeheartedly applaud his efforts!!!

 

Information on Tracey Heft's New Restoration Book

 

I also want to add something I forgot to note initially about the purple label. I think a sliding scale to denote how extensive or minimal the restoration might be is a good idea, but I was not very enthusiastic about the proposed CGC scale. I would have proposed it differently.

 

Matt Nelson has lobbied CGC for a restoration scale and has provided supporting detail for it as well. I can't blame the resto experts for there not being a change in how CGC labels restored books.

 

I have repeatedly indicated a willingness to work with anyone to establish a 10 point system for restoration. I think it is a critical component of the hobby going forward.

 

What I never understood is how would that work? Would there be 2 separate grades/letterings on them to show grade of book before + after and degree of work to cause that change?

[FFB]

This is not to say that I am in favor of people who rip others off, but the free-spending neophyte has to accept responsibility just as he would if he jumped headfirst into the stock market without educating himself first. There is no free lunch, and those who go through life expecting others to hold their hands and keep them safe will ultimately be disappointed.

 

It is unrealistic to expect everyone else in the hobby to be paternalistically protective toward those who have not bothered to put the same effort into learning the things they should. You don't cover for the slackers like that in your everyday job, and nor do most other people. Don't be so surprised that this idealistically altruistic pipe dream hasn't completely taken over the comic book business.

 

In general I agree with your comments Scott. It should be everyone's responsibility to make an effort to educate themselves about the particulars of the community they are entering.

 

But there many pitfalls in every community - including this one - where the problems or concerns on the minimalistic side to the outright fraud on the extreme side are hidden from plain view.

 

Therefore, it is incumbent upon "someone" to ensure the necessary educational information is available so that those who do decide to enter can find the information when they make their reasonable effort.

 

Some of us prefer to identify the placement of the trip wire, if not remove it completely, before the person actually detonates the bomb and then say, "well, you should have been more careful and watched your step."

 

But,obviously, that is a personal choice for people to make. Personally, I prefer to try and help people, pipe dream or not.

 

Could we keep this sub-discussion focused on the purple label issue, which is what I was addressing with my comments? Vague platitudes and cliched analogies do nothing to advance your position, which is unclear to me in this post in any event.