New grading company starting up?

[fazman]

All I can say is that competition is good. It will make everybody in the grading business better. We , as consumers , will benefit in more accurate grading, faster turn around times, competitive pricing. Ultimately , WE decide who will be #1.

 

 

[Kevin76]

cause there is nothing you can do about the wrinkle in the paper,but the handling crease can be avoided

 

Yes there is--throw the wrinkled paper away. I know that wouldn't be cheap from a production point of view, but I don't care--don't tell me there's "nothing you can do" about wrinkles, because there is, it's just that it'd take more work to do it than the printers want to go through.

 

A crease is a crease is a crease...the aesthetic beauty of a comic book shouldn't depend on who caused a defect and when they did it, it should depend upon how it looks at the time of grading. Printing creases and non-color-breaking handling creases look about the same, so they should be deducted similarly. The difference that does exist between them is that printing creases don't break gloss, whereas handling ones often do...but this is extremely minor, certainly not enough of a defect to justify the chasm in current grading between the two types of defects.

 

Paper costs money chief,the more paper that gets stripped off before it's loaded in the press,the more it money it costs the printing company.You think they are going to strip off 300 lbs of paper to make sure your comic doesn't get a wrinkle? I don't think so.The paper cost is 50% of the job,so in reality,there's nothing you can do about it.

[fantastic_four]

Paper costs money chief,the more paper that gets stripped off before it's loaded in the press,the more it money it costs the printing company.You think they are going to strip off 300 lbs of paper to make sure your comic doesn't get a wrinkle? I don't think so.The paper cost is 50% of the job,so in reality,there's nothing you can do about it.

 

I told you I knew all that...but you didn't tell me why it should matter one way or the other towards grading. The printing company saving money by ignoring wrinkled paper is irrelevant to grading, and it definitely shouldn't be used as an excuse to overlook defects. There is very, very little visual difference between printer's creases and non-color-breaking handling creases.

 

This whole "manufacturing defects don't count" issue will end up being one of the main differentiators between one grading company and another if it doesn't change...it's just a matter of time.

[Tomega]

 

 

Man,you know nothing about printing...not to insult you or anything.But I just had to hear your answer. Here's the real reason why.

 

 

 

The only time a a roller can get no ink is when the roller is set wrong,or the ink fountain has run dry.Since comics and most everything else is 4 color (black,blue,red and yellow) you would see a big streak of a missing color on some books like No Red on half the cover for example,But what your thinking of a "streak" of no ink,That would simple be cause by a Plate wearing out,a long line of a missing color. If the line is yellow,it's most likely the red plate that is wearing out and the image will fade.

As far as a blank spot,I'm not sure if you mean if the blank spot is all white or if some color is missing,if color is missing and it's a spot.It's a "blanket smash" The blanket is made of a rubber and can have nicks and such on the surface causeing it to not print the desired color in that spot,If you see a red spot in a purple area,then it's a blanket smash in the blue.

 

As far as wrinkles on the cover,which are called by collectors "printer's crease" The pressman doesn't cause these wrinkles or the press itself,Paper comes on a giant roll,like 45 inches in diamanter.The wrinkles are on the paper before it even gets touched by one drop of ink,just the way it is with some kinds of paper,paper doesn't go through rollers,they go through the blankets and don't get caught,if it does,the web breaks.

Getting to the indentations on some books,that could be caused by anything when the paper is running through the press or something inthe folder is too tight,like the nips or some pipe rollers. Hope this helps

 

 

Yeah, thanks for the "education". You knew exactly what the other poster was talking about and what I was . Regardless of the terminology, I should have indeed listed a it as a ink skip instead of a ink smudge and rollers instead of "ink rollers", but I made a mistake to think everyone could understood that. I see we partly agree with the roller lines, they can indeed be made on the paper, depending on the type of roller and that is what I was referring to. Since you seem to know so much about printing about comics, maybe you can help me out. Would you think erroneous trapping is confused with an ink smudge? Is it an error with the knock out or more of the overprinting? Man, are you as confused as I am? Granted, overprinting was mainly for smaller objects on a multi layered plane but surely you can see how this applies especially to choke and spread . Speaking of choke and spread, blank spaces of ink are usually due to minor misalignments in the printing press and improper choke and spread not "blanket smash" as you indicated( which, correct me if I am wrong, has been all but elimintated by high packing ,hard backed or steel back offset blankets ( since they are needed for full bleeds.)) I have seen this affect logos on comics over and over again, especially with common colors and you have that notorious extra color mis-registration ( a properly applied trap would have solved this.) I see what you are saying about missing colors from a bad plate but I think that can be due to a separator's error ( at least on older books) because sometimes the work went right from rubylith?/acetate? overlays, to photography and then to the plates ( there are some steps in between but I am sure you already know that but I am still unsure of the exact terminology since I know nothing.) I am a little confused, when did the comic printers ( especially Marvel) switch from calling your stated to black, blue , red and yellow to the cyan, magenta, yellow, and black which most people are familiar with in printing? As far as I know, cmyk has been around for a long time and the proper terminology ( although now, things have changed quite a bit with the advent of metallic colors like gold or silver and the florescent colors.] Correct me if I am wrong. Since I know nothing about printing and you seem to know so much, perhaps you can educate me some more..... that is after you look up the above terms and practices.

[Kevin76]

Since I know nothing about printing and you seem to know so much, perhaps you can educate me some more..... that is after you look up the above terms and practices.

 

 

I'm an assistant pressman for Quebecor World,the same company that prints comics,although we don't print comics at our plant,I know about Black Cyan Red and Yellow,I didn't wanna talk too much over your head.As far as your "ink smudge" the ink doesn't smudge cause it's heatset,the goes throught the Chills,ink smudges if it's coldset,The Full Bleed to speak of has to be done on an extra larger paper in prepress and when it's printed it gets trimmed,so there is no white showing,I don't know where you get this "extra color" from mis registration,I do the register where i work,When the job pulls up after a make ready,the register can be out to lunch,it's usually when the plates get hung on the press the wrong way,Page 1 get pulled to the gear side and page 2 gets pulled to the operator,if vise versa,the register is wayyyyyy out,and needs to moved up front on the console.Overprinting is done by the customer,if marvel wants 100,000 copies of spider-man 45,they give an order to the printing company saying they want 100K,but actually only need 80K to fill orders. If you wanna learn so much about printing,go to your local printing company that have web heatset presses and apply.

[Kevin76]

Paper costs money chief,the more paper that gets stripped off before it's loaded in the press,the more it money it costs the printing company.You think they are going to strip off 300 lbs of paper to make sure your comic doesn't get a wrinkle? I don't think so.The paper cost is 50% of the job,so in reality,there's nothing you can do about it.

 

I told you I knew all that...but you didn't tell me why it should matter one way or the other towards grading. The printing company saving money by ignoring wrinkled paper is irrelevant to grading, and it definitely shouldn't be used as an excuse to overlook defects. There is very, very little visual difference between printer's creases and non-color-breaking handling creases.

 

This whole "manufacturing defects don't count" issue will end up being one of the main differentiators between one grading company and another if it doesn't change...it's just a matter of time.

 

then go call steve borock at 1-877-NM-Comic when he gets back from San Diego

[BachelorOfComix]

then go call steve borock at 1-877-NM-Comic when he gets back from San Diego

[MrNice-migration]

Bachelor,

 

Actually, I don't have any comics graded by CCG as the overwhelming majority of CCG examples I've seen are modern and late Bronze, neither of which I collect. I do feel that if they extend the same principles of grading consistancy that I see in their interpretation of 9.0 to 9.6 grades on moderns, and apply this expertise and unerring consistancy to Silver age and Golden age items, they'll run an extremely successfull venture!

 

I do however have many graded by CGC that I think would be pointless to open and send to another company. I do exactly as you suggest and advocate, I buy the comic based on its own merits. Its strengths and weaknesses and not based on the label.

 

I'm satisfied on a whole with the CGC purchases I've made and would not hesitate to keep buying comics in CGC cases if I see a book that I want and the price is right based on the comic..not the label, but there have been a few surprises, and some outright disappointments with defects unseen and unexplained in the Ebay image (and sometimes deliberately sidestepped when I've emailed a seller and asked direct questions and may have been accidentally or intentionally mislead on the answer to my questions concerning something I may have been seeing on the image).

[MrNice-migration]

[Bronty]

Laughing at Rudd's expense? Now I know you're hammer!

 

PS what's that supes toy in your avatar? Looks like a nice peice.

 

Dan

[MrNice-migration]

Kevin,

 

The printing mechanics themselves shouldn't matter in the least. You know your stuff and Tom clearly knows his stuff. What really matters concerning the mechanics of production and assembly is, "what is the final visual affect of the comic's appearance". That is what a grading company is supposed to determine. Not how a defect happened or why it's there. That's a moot point. Defects are what sets apart 9.4s from 7.5s, just as Fantastic Four stated.

 

This "good" or accidental defect, "bad" or intentional defect attitude in compiling a grade on a comic is as unrealistic an attitude as one flawless comic receiving a 9.8 grade with a .38 cal. bullethole through the book because the shooter wasn't aiming at it, a similar issue with the same bullethole getting a 1.0 because it was discerned that he was using it for target practice!

 

If you hold two X-Men 1s side by side and both are CGC graded 9.2 and they are both identical aside from a print wrinkle, the one with the print wrinkle should have gotten an 8.5 or 9.0 since the one without is superior. That's what grading should be about. A detractive skill where accumulating, visual defects progressively lower the score.

 

 

 

 

[MrNice-migration]

?

 

Actually, I was applauding Tom's answer. Kevin thought he was talking to a layman in condescending terms and Tom rose to the occassion and showed extreme intelligence!

 

Also, Why would I laugh at FF's expense. I've already stated on three occassions on this printer's defect issue that I'm in complete agreement with him!

[Bronty]

My mistake. So what's that supes toy?

[MrNice-migration]

Bronty,

 

The figure in the Avatar is actually a 6 foot statue that someone carved out of wood! It was on Ebay and I started a thread about it calling it, "the ugliest thing I've ever seen related to Superman"!!! Everyone was in pretty much agreement with that!!

 

I explained that it was so bad (looking more like old WWF tag team champion Jerry Briscoe..a Native american, than any Superman I've ever seen) that I felt compelled to use it as my avatar.

[BachelorOfComix]

My mistake. So what's that supes toy?

 

look here

[Bronty]

Holee [!@#%^&^]! That really is the ugliest thing ever!

 

The funny thing is that shrunken down to a one inch size, it doesn't look that bad! It's lack of proper proportion had me thinking it was a golden age toy

[Tomega]

 

I'm an assistant pressman for Quebecor World,the same company that prints comics,although we don't print comics at our plant,I know about Black Cyan Red and Yellow,I didn't wanna talk too much over your head.As far as your "ink smudge" the ink doesn't smudge cause it's heatset,the goes throught the Chills,ink smudges if it's coldset,The Full Bleed to speak of has to be done on an extra larger paper in prepress and when it's printed it gets trimmed,so there is no white showing,I don't know where you get this "extra color" from mis registration,I do the register where i work,When the job pulls up after a make ready,the register can be out to lunch,it's usually when the plates get hung on the press the wrong way,Page 1 get pulled to the gear side and page 2 gets pulled to the operator,if vise versa,the register is wayyyyyy out,and needs to moved up front on the console.Overprinting is done by the customer,if marvel wants 100,000 copies of spider-man 45,they give an order to the printing company saying they want 100K,but actually only need 80K to fill orders. If you wanna learn so much about printing,go to your local printing company that have web heatset presses and apply.

 

 

so there is no white showing,I don't know where you get this "extra color" from mis registration

 

How can you say that? I may not be a assistant pressman but I do have some grasp of misregistration. If you have a black over an undercolor and misregistration occurs, will you not see a color that was not intended to be there? Like you said, there could be platemaking or positioning errors. The paper may be crapola. The imagesetter may be off. The sheets may not be of the same size. The black was not set to overprint. Are you telling me that none of these would produce an unwanted color such as a white halo around text?

 

 

 

Overprinting is done by the customer,if marvel wants 100,000 copies of spider-man 45,they give an order to the printing company saying they want 100K,but actually only need 80K to fill orders.

 

What are you talking about with overprinting? That is a common term when referring to printing techniques - it has nothing to do with the number of issues. To my understanding, overprinting results in the base/backround color showing through the /foreground top color. Objects that are too small to allow for a knockout with a trap use a overprint. Small typesets, objects and fine lines can cause lots of gaps and halos when set to knock out so the use of an overprint is sugested, especially with black. Black is the darkest color on the page it is and overprinting black text, objects and lines to avoid gaps caused by misregistration all together. I would assume that since you are a pressman you would have some passing famialiarity with Quarkpress or at least Illustrator. Perhaps you are not directly involved with those programs but I figured you may have heard of these terms, they have old derivations from printing methodology.

 

No offense, but it seems to me that I was the one talking over your head here, at least with some of those terms. I am not in the business, you are - and , yet, I still am familiar with these terms. The fact is, I hope you can talk over my head in some areas since this is your lively hood. Instead of telling someone they do not know anything they are talking about you should perhaps look at what was written a bit more intuitively. Sure I made mistake between ink skip and ink smudge but it was evident of what I was saying, same thing with the rollers. Whether you want to admit it or not, it is obvious that I do have some knowledge and certainly can hold my own, so to speak, on the topic.

 

Tomega

[DiceX]

I really don't want to get in on a catfight.

But Tomega is correct on this one.

 

I'll just add that since 99% of everything is done on computers now, overprints and traps are not as crude as they used to be.

They were very crude back in the hand job days.

 

(I just had to get the term "hand job" in there somewhere.)

[garthgantu]

gotta hand it to you, DiceX - I think you may have silenced the crowd with that one...! (Please it be so,,, pleeeeeez...)

[Tomega]

I really don't want to get in on a catfight.

But Tomega is correct on this one.

 

I'll just add that since 99% of everything is done on computers now, overprints and traps are not as crude as they used to be.

They were very crude back in the hand job days.

 

(I just had to get the term "hand job" in there somewhere.)

 

 

gotta hand it to you, DiceX - I think you may have silenced the crowd with that one...! (Please it be so,,, pleeeeeez...)

 

 

No catfight, just a little annoyance , no harm no foul. At least not yet, he has not responded. However, I think I made my point so this should be the end of it. Besides any more talk about is just going to bore people to tears and make their eyes bleed. ( as garthgantu wryly alluded to.) Don't make me start getting into more of the program end of printing/graphics - once I start talking about Gamma, jaggies, gain compensation and densitometers, you will want to kill yourself or kill me. So let's just go back to the direction of this thread questioning "non-wear flaws, those incurred by the printing and manufacturing process" and will CGC take them more into consideration. That is a valid question, I would think they would have to if they truly adopt Overstreet's guidelines and want to bolster their legitimacy. Who knows. Right now they are the 800 lb gorilla who can do whatever they want. Perhaps these upstart grading companies will make CGC consider changes.

Tom