Huge mass of restored books about to hit E-bay soon

[jeranimal]

I honestly don't have a problem with what Alice is doing. She is a consignment shop and does not state that the books are restored or not. She has done her research into the matter (as evidenced by the numerous threads where she is asking all the right questions) and her listings have a very detailed description with lots of close-up pictures.

These comics are being sold AS-IS and UNGRADED, so please ask your questions BEFORE you bid as all sales are final.

Buying on ebay is a gamble and this is just another example!

[Fandango]

Message for Alice:

 

Alice, Let me say that I am concerned. I am concerned that you are a snake oil salesman trying to pass along restored comics under bogus auspices. Why not just submit your comics for professional grading? Please answer at your leisure.

 

Not sure that performing due diligence should require that these books be submitted to CGC, though it may make financial sense to do so? Alice’s explanation of her policy seems satisfactory enough to me; perhaps people should think about contacting her directly about the books they are thinking of bidding on before casting aspersions?

[whomerjay]

To me it all boils down to if she has received comments that many of these books are restored, then not revealing that is disengenuous. If she were to reveal "someone has told me that they noted tear seals and (other forms of resto) on some of the books, but I am unable to determine this", then selling "as-is" is acceptable. But knowing the books are probably restored while not disclosing, she's simply hoping to hook the naive or risk-taking bargain hunter.

 

It is also just bad business to not have the big $ books CGC'd. If they come back resto-free, she'll make more money than selling raw "as-is". If they come back PLOD, at least she'll be spared the ordeal of dealing with an irate buyer.

[Fandango]

To me it all boils down to if she has received comments that many of these books are restored, then not revealing that is disengenuous. If she were to reveal "someone has told me that they noted tear seals and (other forms of resto) on some of the books, but I am unable to determine this", then selling "as-is" is acceptable. But knowing the books are probably restored while not disclosing, she's simply hoping to hook the naive or risk-taking bargain hunter.

 

Absolutely, if it has been established beyond doubt that a book has undergone restoration, it should be disclosed. Which books have been restored?

[Fazybones]

 

Maybe Alice isn't the bad guy in this situation the more I think about it. I can't help thinking about this lawyer whose been a collector for over ten years with an impeccable record. Why would this lawyer with lots of experience collecting consign his books to a pottery salesperson and not one of the many comic book dealers in the North West??

 

I also don't like the fact she takes a personal attack at Rocketeer after her two weeks of comic book questions just because he supposedly gave her a low ball offer on some books. The real reason IMO is he found close to fifty restored books and reported it to his fellow board members.

 

For those of you that think this is okay to sell books that someone has pointed out close to fifty books restored, please give me your e-bay ID's and I'll watch for your winning bids.

 

Don't worry Alice there are lots of buyers on e-bay that don't read these boards and want that awesome deal hoping and praying the books aren't restored so your books I'm sure will sell for good money.

[fanfourforever]

Isn't it possible that the books aren't restored? Maybe rocketboy tried to lowball the seller thinking she had no idea what she had. When he couldn't scam the books from her, he got pissed and decided to screw with her auctions? I don't know either of these people. Why should we take rocket's word over the sellers? Just because he is a board member?

[blutobc]

Isn't it possible that the books aren't restored? Maybe rocketboy tried to lowball the seller thinking she had no idea what she had. When he couldn't scam the books from her, he got pissed and decided to screw with her auctions? I don't know either of these people. Why should we take rocket's word over the sellers? Just because he is a board member?

 

There are board members then there are board members.

The Rocketeer is an established active member of the comic collecting community along with being a CGC board member. He has been buying/selling comics as a respected individual for many years, and is known as a standup person. So yeah, I'm willing to accept his word over a consignment shop person who doesn't know the first thing about comics.

 

Calling his offer a lowball because it didn't match the overstreet value is ridiculous...and shows her most basic misunderstanding of the market. Using overstreet and ebay sells as a "guide" IS a good starting place for determining a book's value. But the market is more fluid than that and books are only worth what one or more individuals are willing to pay.

[Fazybones]

Isn't it possible that the books aren't restored? Maybe rocketboy tried to lowball the seller thinking she had no idea what she had. When he couldn't scam the books from her, he got pissed and decided to screw with her auctions? I don't know either of these people. Why should we take rocket's word over the sellers? Just because he is a board member?

 

I guess Rocketeer should be able to answer that for you. Maybe I'm naive trusting a board member when there are so many "honest" e-bay sellers out there.

[Foolkiller]

Isn't it possible that the books aren't restored? Maybe rocketboy tried to lowball the seller thinking she had no idea what she had. When he couldn't scam the books from her, he got pissed and decided to screw with her auctions? I don't know either of these people. Why should we take rocket's word over the sellers? Just because he is a board member?

 

I've met Rocketeer on several occasions and I know a) he knows how to grade and b) can spot restoration.

 

A certification by anyone (and that includes CGC) does not mean that restoration is not present on the book with 100% accuracy. Just because there's some certificate saying the book isn't restored, really isn't going to enhance my confidence compared to someone I know actually seeing and inspecting the book.

 

Here are the problems: 1) the seller won't accept returns -- red flag right there. 2) This person (attorney or no, since I am an attorney myself, I know, as the other board lawyers here do too, there are plenty of liars and unscrupulous lawyers out there) may or may not have been honest with the consignor.

 

But if you were such a major, major collector -- have bought all these books and were so proud of your collection, why on earth would you use someone who didn't know anything about comics? From a strictly financial perspective, why use someone who wasn't going to maximize your value. Think about the books being listed -- you don't think Metro or Comiclink or Heritage or even a large national dealer like Harley Yee or Mark Wilson could get you better prices?

 

Bottom line to me is this: the seller may not know for a fact the books have been restored -- but this might be a case of "hear no evil, see no evil" -- thus "maybe" the books are restored and maybe not -- hence the no returns policy. If he's being honest, great, but I'm not going to roll the dice.

 

I'm sure the seller would never buy raw books from a seller who told him no returns -- what you see is what you get, and all you can judge by is scans. Bottom line: thank God Rocketeer alerted us to this seller -- now I, and hopefully many others, will warn as many people as we know to steer clear of these auctions -- bottom line: why take the risk?

[whomerjay]

Isn't it possible that the books aren't restored? Maybe rocketboy tried to lowball the seller thinking she had no idea what she had. When he couldn't scam the books from her, he got pissed and decided to screw with her auctions? I don't know either of these people. Why should we take rocket's word over the sellers? Just because he is a board member?

 

I've met Rocketeer on several occasions and I know a) he knows how to grade and b) can spot restoration.

 

A certification by anyone (and that includes CGC) does not mean that restoration is not present on the book with 100% accuracy. Just because there's some certificate saying the book isn't restored, really isn't going to enhance my confidence compared to someone I know actually seeing and inspecting the book.

 

Here are the problems: 1) the seller won't accept returns -- red flag right there. 2) This person (attorney or no, since I am an attorney myself, I know, as the other board lawyers here do too, there are plenty of liars and unscrupulous lawyers out there) may or may not have been honest with the consignor.

 

But if you were such a major, major collector -- have bought all these books and were so proud of your collection, why on earth would you use someone who didn't know anything about comics? From a strictly financial perspective, why use someone who wasn't going to maximize your value. Think about the books being listed -- you don't think Metro or Comiclink or Heritage or even a large national dealer like Harley Yee or Mark Wilson could get you better prices?

 

Bottom line to me is this: the seller may not know for a fact the books have been restored -- but this might be a case of "hear no evil, see no evil" -- thus "maybe" the books are restored and maybe not -- hence the no returns policy. If he's being honest, great, but I'm not going to roll the dice.

 

I'm sure the seller would never buy raw books from a seller who told him no returns -- what you see is what you get, and all you can judge by is scans. Bottom line: thank God Rocketeer alerted us to this seller -- now I, and hopefully many others, will warn as many people as we know to steer clear of these auctions -- bottom line: why take the risk?

 

If I had a bunch of restored raw big $ books and wanted to maximize profit (not caring who got screwed) and maintain pausible deniability or anonymity I would probably consign them to someone like this Alice who would sell them AS IS with the "I don't know squat about comics but they look nice to me" strategy. One could say she's functioning as a semi-legit fence. My guess is this guy she ID'd as owner isn't too happy right now.

[whomerjay]

Why should we take rocket's word over the sellers? Just because he is a board member?

 

Yes. Excluding Noobs and a very small handful of others, that's sufficient.

 

Someone with an established rep, it's a no-brainer.

[awe4one]

Absolutely, if it has been established beyond doubt that a book has undergone restoration, it should be disclosed. Which books have been restored?

 

Just have Rocketeer outline the comics he know were restored from the collection and have Alice post those detailed scans. That'll go a long way to seeing who is stretching the truth here...

 

Jim

[awe4one]

Why should we take rocket's word over the sellers? Just because he is a board member?

 

Yes. Excluding Noobs and a very small handful of others, that's sufficient.

 

Someone with an established rep, it's a no-brainer.

 

Unless I've actually met the person, I don't take anyone for granted around here, long-time Board member or not. At the end of the day, the vast majority of you are still an unknown quantity sitting behind a computer chatting on a message board.

 

A person could be a wonderful, friendly writer on a computer but clam up to point of having an anxiety attack in a social setting. There's not enough to judge a person solely on how long, often, or what they post on this Forum in my opinion...

 

Jim

[whomerjay]

Why should we take rocket's word over the sellers? Just because he is a board member?

 

Yes. Excluding Noobs and a very small handful of others, that's sufficient.

 

Someone with an established rep, it's a no-brainer.

 

Unless I've actually met the person, I don't take anyone for granted around here, long-time Board member or not. At the end of the day, the vast majority of you are still an unknown quantity sitting behind a computer chatting on a message board.

 

A person could be a wonderful, friendly writer on a computer but clam up to point of having an anxiety attack in a social setting. There's not enough to judge a person solely on how long, often, or what they post on this Forum in my opinion...

 

Jim

 

Of course, and I've said similar things before. But we're talking about when deciding to buy a comic book. I'll also accept missing an opportunity in the 1% (max) of the time when blindly believing the board member over an ebay comics-ignorant consigner turns out to be wrong.

[comix4fun]

This was my posted response to Alice.

Not trying to attack her as a person, but her lack of ability, skill and experience in this area. When you read it you will be able to see that her attacks on "Rocketeer" are based on faulty information. She has admitted her complete novice level in grading and pricing, but immediately knew that Rocketeer was trying to rip her off and undervalue the books? It doesn't wash.

 

It is obvious that you are trying very hard to try and understand how to value and grade these comics.

 

I have read your posts and your questions to the forum about grading and pricing and the like.

 

I have no doubt you are making a genuine effort to attempt to figure out what these books are worth and represent your client to the best of your ability.

 

However, comic book grading is something that takes years, not weeks to figure out. And it takes years more to get to a point where you are proficient at it. Finding restoration is something that even the most seasoned and experienced veterans of the hobby struggle with.

 

This may sound harsh, but you are in over your head. You may be the world's pre-eminent expert in China, and Glass, or other antiques but this type of grading, pricing, market, and restoration detection of a unique skill set. You would be well suited bringing in an "expert" to help you out with some of these issues for a fee.

 

Just a week ago you were posting asking about "How to grade" and "What defects look like" and this week posting the books. You can't learn this on the fly without making a large amount of errors. And with the dollar figures we are talking about that could turn into liability for you from your client and your ebay customers.

 

I do have one point of order with your rebuttal/attack on Rocketeer. You mention that after he left the store you looked at the prices he offered for the books and then you compared them to "fair" prices for the books in the price guide. Then you proceed to inform this board that he "Severely Undervalued" the books. You may feel that to be true but if you think about it you may be off base.

 

Think about it, if you are just now asking how to grade books and what defects look like and how they effect grade and price then how would you know what a fair price for a book is when you don't know how to grade (and price them in grade) in the first place? Price guides have 5 different values for different grades listed and many more for the books that fall "Between" grades.

 

You asked on this board "What are these books Very Good or Very Fine?" just a week ago. If you don't know how to grade them, then you don't know what the guide values them at and you don't know if Rocketeer was trying to undervalue them.

 

I feel you are trying your best to represent your client, as I have said. However, I really don't know why an educated man (your client) who is a lifetime collector, and has obviously spent large amounts of money on these books, would choose someone to sell them who (until a week ago) had no idea how to grade, price, or inspect a comic book.

 

To avoid liability, and breach of fiduciary duty, I would consult with an expert in person before you take another step. The hardest thing for an expert in collectibles to accept is when there is something about collectibles that they do not know. You have reached that point. How you choose to handle it is your choice.

 

Best,

Chris

 

 

PS...Does anyone have an answer why a lifetime collector would ask someone without a clue as to grading and pricing and resto to sell a collection that could be worth mid 6 figures? Anyone?

 

He was buying large books such as Hulk #1 within the last 10-12 years this is not a guy who had them in his barn for 40 years and did not have a clue as to their potential worth.

[Stronguy]

Isn't it possible that the books aren't restored? Maybe rocketboy tried to lowball the seller thinking she had no idea what she had. When he couldn't scam the books from her, he got pissed and decided to screw with her auctions? I don't know either of these people. Why should we take rocket's word over the sellers? Just because he is a board member?

 

Since when is making a low offer a scam. If that's the case then 80% of this board is scam artists.

 

Making an offer is just that... an offer, not some attempt to defraud anyone. The seller has the right to refuse it or accept it.

[Aman619]

same reason people sell theor own homes, or more accutrately, hire a friend or list with a lowball agent rather than a large professional RE firm. So they keep more of the sales price. This guy probably figure he made his best deal using her, balancing her credibility in other areas (for safety) vs the typical deal any of the major dealers would have given him. I think it probably looked good on paper. PLUS, she wouldnt be examing the books too closely and giving him the bad news before they got to market. My sense is he knows at least SOME of his collection was compromised before he bought them. Just as many here have found out when they finally slabbed their books.

 

but it doesnt seem to working out as planned.....

[Rocketeer]

...OK,..I'm not going to spend a whole lot of time arguing this case,...first off I want to express that for the most part this is a very nice collection with a lot of keys,..it's obvious that whoever put this together was a serious collector,.. I am not accusing Alice of willfully trying to scam anyone with knowledge that these books are restored,...nor am I claiming that all of theses books are restored,...however on the books that I picked out to give a final look over I did find evidence of tear seals and color touch and frankly many of the edges appeared to even with the pages which would suggest trimming....this was mainly on the early silver pieces and when I brought this to her attention, and asked if they returnable if they proved to be restored the response I received was "price them accordingly then all sales are final",...I did not negotiate further at this point I simply left the shop,....chances are the owner of the books did not even know some of these books were restored himself,...but he was aware of the possibility of restoration because he did have the Hulk #1 checked by Matt Nelson some 12 years ago before buying it and he passed it as OK,....the point here is once I started to find resto on some of the books I no longer was willing to play Russian Roulette on any of them ,..and I wanted to make sure that since these are non returnable items that everyone in the immediate community was aware of the risk involved,...if these books were returnable I would have purchased many of them at fair market raw value,...

[ShoNuff-migration]

 

 

[Fazybones]

This was my posted response to Alice.

Not trying to attack her as a person, but her lack of ability, skill and experience in this area. When you read it you will be able to see that her attacks on "Rocketeer" are based on faulty information. She has admitted her complete novice level in grading and pricing, but immediately knew that Rocketeer was trying to rip her off and undervalue the books? It doesn't wash.

 

It is obvious that you are trying very hard to try and understand how to value and grade these comics.

 

I have read your posts and your questions to the forum about grading and pricing and the like.

 

I have no doubt you are making a genuine effort to attempt to figure out what these books are worth and represent your client to the best of your ability.

 

However, comic book grading is something that takes years, not weeks to figure out. And it takes years more to get to a point where you are proficient at it. Finding restoration is something that even the most seasoned and experienced veterans of the hobby struggle with.

 

This may sound harsh, but you are in over your head. You may be the world's pre-eminent expert in China, and Glass, or other antiques but this type of grading, pricing, market, and restoration detection of a unique skill set. You would be well suited bringing in an "expert" to help you out with some of these issues for a fee.

 

Just a week ago you were posting asking about "How to grade" and "What defects look like" and this week posting the books. You can't learn this on the fly without making a large amount of errors. And with the dollar figures we are talking about that could turn into liability for you from your client and your ebay customers.

 

I do have one point of order with your rebuttal/attack on Rocketeer. You mention that after he left the store you looked at the prices he offered for the books and then you compared them to "fair" prices for the books in the price guide. Then you proceed to inform this board that he "Severely Undervalued" the books. You may feel that to be true but if you think about it you may be off base.

 

Think about it, if you are just now asking how to grade books and what defects look like and how they effect grade and price then how would you know what a fair price for a book is when you don't know how to grade (and price them in grade) in the first place? Price guides have 5 different values for different grades listed and many more for the books that fall "Between" grades.

 

You asked on this board "What are these books Very Good or Very Fine?" just a week ago. If you don't know how to grade them, then you don't know what the guide values them at and you don't know if Rocketeer was trying to undervalue them.

 

I feel you are trying your best to represent your client, as I have said. However, I really don't know why an educated man (your client) who is a lifetime collector, and has obviously spent large amounts of money on these books, would choose someone to sell them who (until a week ago) had no idea how to grade, price, or inspect a comic book.

 

To avoid liability, and breach of fiduciary duty, I would consult with an expert in person before you take another step. The hardest thing for an expert in collectibles to accept is when there is something about collectibles that they do not know. You have reached that point. How you choose to handle it is your choice.

 

Best,

Chris

 

 

PS...Does anyone have an answer why a lifetime collector would ask someone without a clue as to grading and pricing and resto to sell a collection that could be worth mid 6 figures? Anyone?

 

He was buying large books such as Hulk #1 within the last 10-12 years this is not a guy who had them in his barn for 40 years and did not have a clue as to their potential worth.

 

Very well said Chris.

My earlier comment about many e-bayers don't read these boards and your books should still sell for decent prices, but be prepared for the odd negative from irate buyers. After a NEG or two with accusations of restoration your final sale prices will definitely drop.