Showcase New England/Dan Greenhalgh answers questions

[ArAich]

 

i clearly remember some of the cgc board members having a good time saying they were going to put in "punishment bids" on jgreen- i wonder if those members are still here?

 

 

TomMurnane is long gone...

[langur88]

shadroch

 

i think thats unfortunately some of the "lynch mob"/hater mentality on these boards

 

and some of the victims are Dan G/SNE and chuck rozanski

 

 

[qualitycomix]

Hi Dan,

 

When I collected more regularly back in 2001 - 2002, I won quite a few auctions off ebay from you. What I came to realize is exactly what you've stated: that you don't have time to go thru every book if you're grading 60,000-80,000 books every year. All books that I received had the appearance of the grades indicated, but usually only 25-40% made the cut based on the grades assessed. And we're not usually talking 9.2 (SNE grade) vs 8.5/9.0, it was usually a major defect, such as a huge water stain on the back cover covering 1/4 of the book bringing the grade to VG+ or some such grade. I can definitely see how this would be overlooked, if you're just glancing at the books and giving them quick grades. These weren't super expensive books ie $50 - $200 range, so I'm fairly confident that you were just breezing thru the books not giving much time to each book. Thoughts?

 

I don't know if your business model supports it, but you might want to consider hiring someone local (maybe someone on the CGC boards) to help grade the books that you're selling. Then again, what impetus do you have to change what you're doing? Your auctions are extremely successful, and 99% of your customers seem happy.

 

Brent Moeshlin

[Flaming_Telepath]

Hi Dan,

 

When I collected more regularly back in 2001 - 2002, I won quite a few auctions off ebay from you. What I came to realize is exactly what you've stated: that you don't have time to go thru every book if you're grading 60,000-80,000 books every year. All books that I received had the appearance of the grades indicated, but usually only 25-40% made the cut based on the grades assessed. And we're not usually talking 9.2 (SNE grade) vs 8.5/9.0, it was usually a major defect, such as a huge water stain on the back cover covering 1/4 of the book bringing the grade to VG+ or some such grade. I can definitely see how this would be overlooked, if you're just glancing at the books and giving them quick grades. These weren't super expensive books ie $50 - $200 range, so I'm fairly confident that you were just breezing thru the books not giving much time to each book. Thoughts?

 

I don't know if your business model supports it, but you might want to consider hiring someone local (maybe someone on the CGC boards) to help grade the books that you're selling. Then again, what impetus do you have to change what you're doing? Your auctions are extremely successful, and 99% of your customers seem happy.

 

Brent Moeshlin

 

Whilst I understand why Dan would have to adopt this approach, I can't say I would be happy with it as a business model.

 

Three real concerns...

 

(1) SNE accept returns...but customers would be out shipping at least in one direction.

 

(2) Customers have to go through various hoops to secure a refund, not because of a genuine error, but because of a pre-determined business model.

 

(3) Customers are not necessarily savvy enough to determine whether grading and/or resto checks are correct or not. Imagine their surprise three years on when they lay the burden at CGC's door and discover that their unrestored 9.2 is a purple label 7.5.

 

I know why Dan's doing it this way...I just can't agree with it.

[ShowcaseNE]

When it gets right down to it...the difference between a 9.8 and a 9.9 is usually a function of what side of the bed some one got up on that morning....in my opinion anyway.

 

Dan,

 

While it is easy to think this, the actual numbers to not bear this opinion out. The statistics show that the differences between 9.8, 9.9, and 10 have more behind them than just whim. Valiantman, who keeps all these statistics up to date, can chime in with the latest numbers.

 

To be fair, if you revised that to the difference between 9.6 and 9.8...it is a much easier argument to make.

 

what statistics could you be possibly referring to that would argue against his statement? Did some one crack out 100's of 9.8's and 9.9's and have them regraded by an impartial expert 3rd party? I would agree that it is probable that the average 9.9 is better than the average 9.8, but I would bet there are a bunch of 9.8's out there that are at least as good as many 9.9 (or 10.0's) out there.

 

Just the 'raw' numbers, so to speak, of how many 9.8s there are versus 9.9s versus 10s. If it was whim they would not look like this:

 

CGC 10.0s: 1,028

CGC 9.9s: 4,131

CGC 9.8s: 197,585

CGC 9.6s: 149,120

 

This is as of 2/16 and covers all books graded. For these grades it's pretty safe to assume thay are made up of a lion's share of modern books. If the differences between these grades was purely whim, I think it is extremely unlikely we would see such a clean breakdown and massive disparity between 9.8 and 9.9.

 

There seems to be a very marked difference between 9.8 and 9.9 to CGC, in whatever voodoo they do.

 

Ckb and Whomerjay:

 

Let me preface my comments with the admission that I don't really deal in the ultra high grade modern CGC market, and consequently, I don't understand it that well.

 

Additionally Ckb...I am not in a position to either defend or refute what you point out as empirical evidence...what you say could very well be true.

 

Also, I am generally a fan of CGC and I support them as a whole, but like everyone, I don't always agree with what they are doing and everything they have done.

 

That being said, I am of the opinion that if you crack out 100 9.8's, and one 9.9 (about the ratio of 9.9's to 9.8's going by your census report) and asked CGC to regrade the books...I think they would be hard pressed to regrade the original 9.9 again, as a 9.9.

 

Just my opinion....more on CGC in the next post.

[Scrooge]

That being said, I am of the opinion that if you crack out 100 9.8's, and one 9.9 (about the ratio of 9.9's to 9.8's going by your census report) and asked CGC to regrade the books...I think they would be hard pressed to regrade the original 9.9 again, as a 9.9.

 

You know what: I agree with you on that issue. What's more, I would bet $$$ that some of the 9.8s would come back as 9.6s.

[CKB]

That being said, I am of the opinion that if you crack out 100 9.8's, and one 9.9 (about the ratio of 9.9's to 9.8's going by your census report) and asked CGC to regrade the books...I think they would be hard pressed to regrade the original 9.9 again, as a 9.9.

 

You know what: I agree with you on that issue. What's more, I would bet $$$ that some of the 9.8s would come back as 9.6s.

 

Wow what a great experiment. The ratio is actually just under 50-to-1. I tend to think they would find the 9.9 if we could recreate the situation accurately. We have a sort-of Heisenberg principle (an observer effect) working against us, though, as the process of resubbing and handling and reslabbing can affect the results. Hell, by the time the thing gets in the slab the first time it may be a 9.6. Yes, it's all absurd.

 

Can someone convince Steve Mortensen at Colossus to do this?? Cracking a 9.9 is kind of...well...um...stupid???

[ShowcaseNE]

I thought someone had asked me a question that had to do with differences between CGC grading and Overstreet grading....and the impact of these changes.

 

But I can't find the post....Here it is just the same.

 

No one can disagree that CGC has changed the landscape. In retrospect...they have been the catalyst of a number of positive changes.....renewed interest in the hobby, grade safeguards, price appreciation...as well as created a new market...the ultra high grade modern market.

 

I am a supporter of CGC....but in my opinion some of the departures from the Overstreet grading system they have put into effect have been dramatic. I am probably not saying anything new here....but here it is anyways.

 

CGC grading standards have two material departures from Overstreet grading standards.

 

First: the cornerstone of the Overstreet grading system was "overall state of preservation" which took into account all of a books characteristics including structure, paper quality, color, gloss, etc.

 

The cornerstone of the CGC grading system is "structure"...first and foremost.

A book can't be graded higher under the CGC system, than the grade given to the overall structure of a book.

 

Second, under the Overstreet system of grading....you can not have a nm book without having NM paper quality.

 

Under the CGC grading system....you can have a book in 9.4 without NM paper.

 

This a material departure.....but I think, I think a change for the positive.

 

In CGC's defense...they probably viewed this as an improvement to the Overstreet grading system....in effect...they give a book two grades...one for paper....and one for everything else.

 

On another note.....they have changed the grading scale and the way in which books are graded, in my opinion (again....completely my opinion based on my observations)

 

Under the Overstreet system....you started at the top....10.0 and worked down to the correct grade based on the defects on the book.

 

I think CGC (again, pure speculation) starts at 9.4....and then decides if a book warrants a higher grade, or a lower grade based on the defects.

 

So books graded 9.6 and higher get those grades because they are missing certain defects.....I think this version might help explain, to some extent, why you get the kind of numbers you see in the census report as pointed out in the thread by Ckb.

 

Again...overall, CGC has had many positive affects on the hobby as a whole....and in the spirit of disclosure...we use them all the time.

 

Moreover, what I think, however, is not all that relevant as CGC is widely accepted and supported by most in the hobby.

[drdonaldblake]

hi dan

 

did you see my post on p 38?

[ShowcaseNE]

hi dan

 

did you see my post on p 38?

 

Hi Ben:

 

I was taking a break from the boards tonight...it's been kind of a whirlwind this past week.

 

Nice to hear from you. As someone whom has bought a lot of high grade material over the years, and CGC'd much of it.....you, as do most collectors....know first hand what we have been doing, and what to expect from us. Glad you could add balance with respect to those having other experiences.

 

So thanks for your positive comments.

[drdonaldblake]

no problems Dan

 

nice to see you on the boards

 

do u still own the two 911's?

[jkc313]

The nastieness of the feedback is easy to explain. All it really takes is one word

 

Intimidation!

 

Dan is a Bully in the most classic sense.

 

If you dare to say anything bad about him he will attempt to hurt you and your reputation.

 

Does anyone who reads what he has written want to file a neg against him knowing the kind of response they will get?

 

I don't know who you are but I've known Dan since he was a collector at New York shows long before Showcase New England. I've read through a lot of this and kept my moutrh shut (amazing, I know!). But to call Dan a bully is idiotic. I've read some of the bad feedback and I can assure everyone reading this that these people complaining must have done some incredibly stupid things to get Dan so riled up. Dan is the ONLY dealer I know that will even consider returns up to 3 years. Hell, he refunded me $$ on a book I bought from some guy in England who never opened it when he bought it years ago from Showcase. There are very few people on this planet I would be comfortable sending $50,000 to in cash or books but wouldn't hesitate if Dan called and asked for it. This guy is and has been an honest and upfront dealer for a long, long time and will continue to be. Everyone in his company are professional on their actions and I'm simply amazed at some of these posts as I know Dan will do things that are unreasonable and no dealer in their right mind would do just to make a problem go away.

 

keith contarino

[Vtcomics]

one more thing in fairness to Dan.....

 

Many times (during the roaring 90's) Dan would send me books on approval WITHOUT having ANY cash up front. Granted, Dan and I had become well acquainted prior to this service, but I thought it fair to point it out; not too many dealers are willing to take that kind of leap of faith. And I thank him for that.

[jkc313]

ciorac:

I always tried to be your friend, but you made it really hard.

 

Yep,

this pretty much sums up my dealings with Dan over the years also.

I still have at least one of his famous "stop payment" checks buried somewhere...

 

But like Bill, I'm glad to see you've changed a lot over the years also.

 

Sean. 1. What the hell are you doing bringing up something from 12 years ago and 2. My God!!! Talk about the pot calling the kettle black! You surely don'y want me airing YOUR dirty laundry on these boards do you? ( and no, I wouldn't under any circumstances) but for crying out loud, let this one go. We've all made mistakes. If all you can come up with is a lousy $850 considering all thye $$ we dealt with in our dealings with Dan I'd just forget about it.

 

keith contarino

[jkc313]

I thought someone had asked me a question that had to do with differences between CGC grading and Overstreet grading....and the impact of these changes.

 

But I can't find the post....Here it is just the same.

 

No one can disagree that CGC has changed the landscape. In retrospect...they have been the catalyst of a number of positive changes.....renewed interest in the hobby, grade safeguards, price appreciation...as well as created a new market...the ultra high grade modern market.

 

I am a supporter of CGC....but in my opinion some of the departures from the Overstreet grading system they have put into effect have been dramatic. I am probably not saying anything new here....but here it is anyways.

 

CGC grading standards have two material departures from Overstreet grading standards.

 

First: the cornerstone of the Overstreet grading system was "overall state of preservation" which took into account all of a books characteristics including structure, paper quality, color, gloss, etc.

 

The cornerstone of the CGC grading system is "structure"...first and foremost.

A book can't be graded higher under the CGC system, than the grade given to the overall structure of a book.

 

Second, under the Overstreet system of grading....you can not have a nm book without having NM paper quality.

 

Under the CGC grading system....you can have a book in 9.4 without NM paper.

 

This a material departure.....but I think, I think a change for the positive.

 

In CGC's defense...they probably viewed this as an improvement to the Overstreet grading system....in effect...they give a book two grades...one for paper....and one for everything else.

 

On another note.....they have changed the grading scale and the way in which books are graded, in my opinion (again....completely my opinion based on my observations)

 

Under the Overstreet system....you started at the top....10.0 and worked down to the correct grade based on the defects on the book.

 

I think CGC (again, pure speculation) starts at 9.4....and then decides if a book warrants a higher grade, or a lower grade based on the defects.

 

So books graded 9.6 and higher get those grades because they are missing certain defects.....I think this version might help explain, to some extent, why you get the kind of numbers you see in the census report as pointed out in the thread by Ckb.

 

Again...overall, CGC has had many positive affects on the hobby as a whole....and in the spirit of disclosure...we use them all the time.

 

Moreover, what I think, however, is not all that relevant as CGC is widely accepted and supported by most in the hobby.

 

Hi Dan. My two cents on this. I argued with Borack and others when they started and maintain that I'm correct. How in God''s name a miscut book can grade 9.6 or 9.8 is beyond me. This has NEVER been the case and I see more and more people, myself included, selling CGC books with the notation, "perfectly centered". When CGC first burst on the scene I had hoped that at last a 9.4 would be a 9.4. But, not so. There are 9.6's out there that have less eye appeal than the same book graded 9.4. Roter had the same problem with his grading system, add up the numbers and come up with a grade regardless of how the book looks. I applaud CGC for all they've done but they have left out the art of grading and replaced it with a science that sometimes does not make sense. 5 years ago people bought the CGC grade. Now they are looking at the books which I think is positive. I agree 100% with you concerning page quality. 9.6 with cream pages? You gotta be kidding me? And white pages are starting to bring a bonus as they should on Silver Age, especially DC's. CGC is here to stay and I admit I was wrong 10 years ago when I said comic collectors would not tolerate having their books slabbed. But I am happy to see people actually looking at the books and not just accepting a grade.

 

keith contarino

[ajaxfarrell]

My only deal with SNE was for this copy of Adventure #52 that I won from them off of ebay in around 1998...

---

---

I was happy to have won it for just $116.00. I dragged my feet paying for it and remember they sent me an email that said something like "Hey, you won the Adventure # 52 from us, we haven't received your payment yet, if you want to take a pass on it, NO PROBLEM"....I then paid immediately.....

---

Thanks to them, I have bookends to my (click the following link for more info) "ALVIN" Pedigree Collection

---

Thanks again, I'll always associate SNE with one of the highlights in my 20+ years of collecting.

[Dick Pontoon]

Hi Dan.

 

I was wondering if your ASM 21 currently on ebay has the pinup page?

 

DP

[ShowcaseNE]

Hi Dan.

 

I was wondering if your ASM 21 currently on ebay has the pinup page?

 

DP

 

It does.

 

Please (I request this respectfully) do not use this forum to ask questions about our auctions, or items we have for sale. The purpose of my coming onto this forum is to spend time answering questions about my company, policies, history and any opinions that anyone might be inclined to ask for.

 

Anyone having questions about items can email us at comics@showcasene.com

[BEAUMONTS]

As an experienced dealer and collector, what kind of advice would you give a relative newbie in :

1. Advertising and finding collections in your own state or province

 

2.How you come to a price for a collection.

 

3.When you do come up with a price, do you make the offering standing or only for the present.

 

3.Any other Nuggets of info along this line would be appreciated.

[RockMyAmadeus]

I guess I'll add to this...

 

I have bought several lots from Showcase over the years, and been generally pleased with my purchases (sometimes exceptionally so), but there have also been more than one occasion where a book or group of books was off by a grade or more, and had to be returned.

 

One thing that bothered me is that when I called you, Dan, and spoke to you in person, you really put off the vibe that you didn't really have time to discuss the situation with me, and didn't want to be bothered....why is that? I'll chalk it up to a bad day, but the point to me has always been "you never know what customer will end up paying for your house in the Hamptons, so every customer should always be treated as if they were THAT customer."

 

Or, there's always adding to staff to have a customer service rep.

 

Like test said...people ALWAYS remember someone who made them unhappy.

 

I do very much appreciate the fact that I can return books that have missed flaws ("added staple" holes in "VF" graded Silver Age spideys) and you go to the extra effort of REFUNDING RETURN SHIPPING when it was requested.

 

In my mind, if a seller, any seller, me, you, anyone, makes a mistake....it is not the buyer's responsibility to pay to return the item to you. That's just not right. They already wasted their time bidding, paying, receiving, re-packing, and shipping it back....all uncompensated....because of a clear dealer error (not a "you think this is VF, and I think it's VF-" situation.) So, when I have sold, I've always been of that philosophy.

 

But then, I'm the guy who only sold a thousand books a year, and I'm anal enough that I only ever had one complaint (detached centerfold that wasn't detached when I sent it) in 5 years of selling.

 

Of course, there was the time I bought a PM&IF #66 graded 9.6 by you and it came back a 9.0. Sometimes, it's just not worth the hassle of sending back.