Relationship of DC and Marvel Silver from 1955 to 1961.

[NoImSpartacus]

Relationship of DC and Marvel Silver from 1955 to 1961.

 

Research into DC and Marvel Silver from years 1955 to 1961 seems to be yielding results that books from that time period are possibly scarcer than average. You be the judge from info below??!?!?!?!?!

 

Before I ask the question of why ? Please look over the info below and first correct my premise if I am wrong or you see my evidence as not adding up?

 

Premise:

Just about all issues in Overstreet show Superheroes books from these dates to be higher than many issues both before 1955 and after 1961. I am speaking about these issues as a block and not individual low issue numbers from Golden Age. Example: Flash up till about issue # 100 is in the thousands for 9.0 and above. Its goes lower from about 101 to 124 averaging in the 3 to 4 hundred dollar range and then in 1962 it dives down to 150 to 180s in price. Also, in looking over submissions to CGC from Valiantmans CGC statistics pages. ( Thankyou again for this Valiantman!!!!)

It seems that books before 1955 are submitted in larger quantity and in much large quantity after at the start of 1962 on. up. Yet, books between years 55 and 61 are submitted at about half the rate. When I start putting together evidence from Overstreet prices as well as CBGs prices for books of 55 to 61as well as CGC submissions statistics, it appears that these books are generally rarer. Also, the CGC submissions chart someone was kind enough to put up shows a tremendous decrease in submissions between years 1955 and 1961. Starting in year 1962 large quantities start to appear again in submission and in lesser price ( about half that of 55 to 61 prices ) in Overstreet.

.

Here is the question???

 

1.Do you think there is a true scarcity of issues from that period ??

2. OR, Do you believe that there are less submissions to CGC from years 55 to 61 not because they are rarer but because nothing is happening in the books during that period that would cause someone to submit books.

3.OR, Do you believe its not that the books are rare but paper quality at that time was low so books are not found in high grade causing less submissions because many dont submit books that arent cost effective to grade.

4. OR, Some other answer overlooked by me.

 

First you have to believe evidence of the premise before coming to a conclusion. State what you feel and reasoning.

 

As usual, 5 Stars to hold everyone up regardless of how you feel in your answer. Stars are given late in evening and evening the next day.

 

Good collecting, Jeff

 

[shadroch]

You bring up some excellant questions. In my experiance the DC superhero books from the late 50s are real tough.

ten cent Dcs just don't turn up anywhere clse to the numbers their 12 cent brethern do.I don't have any explanation but will follow this thread with interest.

[garthgantu]

I don't claim to know the answer either, but as a tangential question/observation, I wonder if the advent of the Comics Code Authority (and their wondrous stamp of approval) had an impact on sales of hero titles? Obviously, the CCA had an impact on horror, crime and other genres, especially the "edgier" examples, like those from EC, as those titles more or less died off after the advent of the code.

 

But perhaps *part* of the reduction in circulation was due to parents who, somewhere in the backs of their minds at least, had read something about the evils of comic books and either refused to buy their kids any, or opted for funny animal, Archie and other 'tamer' fare...?

[NoImSpartacus]

I wonder if the advent of the Comics Code Authority (and their wondrous stamp of approval) had an impact on sales of hero titles?

 

Your reason could be an excellent addition to choices. Lets see if we can get a number of responses and maybe a hypothesis of some sort will be able to be put together.

[jonnydouble]

Any DC super-hero book from 1950 to 1960 was scarce due to many reasons...The

Golden age was over and circulation was way down.......Adults were no longer buying comic book as they were in the 40's...maybe the novelty wore off and the American adult public tired of them, but come the 50's super-hero comics were for kids .....the adults who did continue to read comics gravitated towards the horror or crime genre......DC basically cut its super-hero roster down to 3 major players...Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman, and out of those three really only Superman was pulling any weight, which led to a Superman family of DC comics produced in the 50's with Superboy,...Jimmy Olsen,..Lois Lane and others in story lines that generally involved outer-space creatures or romance-fantasy themes....the stories just sucked, cause now cause of the code,..you couldn't have any violence or drugs or any fun stuff!!............Werthham was on the rampage and the resulting comics authority code further convinced "good" parents that their children should not be reading harmful funny books...

 

To top it all off DC in order to cut rising costs had to lessen the paper quality so they could still produce a magazine to a dwindling circulation that was "All in Color for a Dime" the paper quality continually worsened so even the issues that did manage to sell deteriorated more quickly than ever before resulting in fewer quality high grade issues left around today....

J.D.

[Proverbs22_2]

Johnny stole a little of my Thunder... (Johnny Thunder?)

 

I was going to say much the same. The only D.C. hero books that were being published in that period (with any regularity) were the "big Three": Superman, Batman, and Wonder Woman. A bit of a renaissance occured it `61, kicked off with the advent of Marvels "Fantastic Four". Storylines (marvel's, at least) came back down to Earth, and began to focus on the motivations of the characters themselves, instead of their bizarre situations...

 

-Joe

[Aman619]

I agre with 1 and 2 on your list. Its been apparent how in the continuous DC runs, the Bats Actions Detectives etc in these years are tougher to find period, and expecially in grade. Sales were down, readership was down. Superheroes were ebbing. Paper quality might also be a factor in the lower grades of the submissions, but there just arent that many issues that warrant submission, importance-wise. Especially compared to once the Silver Age really got under way.

 

But I thought when I read the title of this thread that you were going to discuss the peculiar distribution arrangement between Marvel and DC in that period when DC was Marvels distributor...

[aardvark88]

IMHO, DCs are scarce in that time period of 1955-61 due to age/attrition & possibly b/c fandom was just starting as letters of comment were being printed after 1st JLA in Brave Bold #28. Also no warehouse finds or bundles of remainders from that time period of mainstream titles except for Classics Illustrated.

[ghoulaid]

I don't know the REAL answer either but everyone has made some excellent observations. The comics from that time period are without question tough to find. It would be extremely usefull if anyone could ever get their hands on some circulation figures back then. When I was actively trying to complete my Batman run, I had more trouble finding issues from #60-90 than I did the first 50 issues! Another factor that cut into comics readership was television becoming much more common in households. Why pay for entertainment when it was free on the TV screen?

[jonnydouble]

 

But I thought when I read the title of this thread that you were going to discuss the peculiar distribution arrangement between Marvel and DC in that period when DC was Marvels distributor...

 

The only thing I know about that period is that Marvel, (was it atlas at the time?) was about a stone's throw away from being the next publisher to go belly up and I think they lost their distribution deal.....They made some kind of arrangement with DC to use their distributor, but one of the conditions was that DC restricted them as to how many books they could publish a month , and that was one of the main reasons there were so few atlas/marvel titles in that time frame....I really don't know the ins and outs of the deal ., but I'm sure someone here more knowledgeable in Marvel history can fill in the gaps.

 

J.D.

[Aman619]

I think you summed it up pretty good!

[shiverbones]

worlds finest & wonder womans are super tough from that era! I gave up on the world's finest run from 1955-58!

[jonnydouble]

worlds finest & wonder womans are super tough from that era! I gave up on the world's finest run from 1955-58!

 

CBG lists a Wonder Woman #87 sale from Comiclink last week....went for $570.00, which is about 2x guide......the book was raw and graded nm-....I saw the book at philly.....Heroes and Dragons was showing it, was maybe a VF/VF+ tops,...Marin Rosenberg has a lot of high grade WW books from the late 50's too but the prices are outrageous...they are super ,super rare,..and I won't buy them unless they are graded cause I've already gotten screwed on two that were restored.

 

J.D.

[Zonker]

So I agree the 1955 to 1961 period is a drought in the availability of certain collectible comics . By 1955 the ECs were gone, as well as the healthy print runs of the pre-Code crime and horror genres. EC fandom was the earliest comics fandom: remember Overstreet himself got his start as an EC collector (buying most of his books second hand if I remember his recent article in the Price Guide of a couple of years ago). DC Silver Age of the 1956-1961 period (especially the Julie Schwartz letters pages with street addresses included) did a lot to stoke fandom, so this emerging comics fandom was ready to seriously collect Marvel issues from the ground floor when the Marvel Age hit in '61.

 

I'm agreeing that pre-1955 ECs and post-1961 Marvels are much more plentiful than most any books from 1955-1961. But I wonder how available average pre-1955 books are compared to typical DCs or Atlas books from the 1955-1961 period? Perhaps Povertyrow could comment on how easy it is to find your typical pre-Code book versus post-Code? I don't have any first-hand experience, but when I hear Pov is only collecting a single book from each pre-code Horror title, I wonder if-- once you discount the EC phenomenum-- you might find that the average 1950-1955 availability is actually less than the 1955-1960 period.

[shiverbones]

i would say in my experience that the attrition rate on pre code horror & crime is really high. It seems close to a worlds finest or wonder woman in a lot of cases where you have to wait several months to find a specific issue, and even longer if you are picky about grade. Some pre code horrors have eluded me for years! i'd say though that since there are probably so many more collectors on the superhero books, the pre code issues may be tougher. Imagine if all the DC hero collectors suddenly wanted an issue of tormented or horror from thre tomb.....

atlas has always seemed easier, post & pre code, but i am not picky about grade.

[shiverbones]

hey spartacus, have some stars for your thought provoking threads

[HooDeeDoo]

Weren't birth rates down during WW2? That would contribute to how many boys were born who would have been the right age to be buying the books. If the average age for a child to start buying comics is around 12, that would correspond with 1954-1957. It's possible since there were fewer boys running around, there were fewer comics being bought and collected.

 

That may not be the #1 reason, but I betcha it was a contributing factor.

 

That, and the fact that the DC books from that era really sucked.

[shiverbones]

good point on the birth rates!

[Kevin Boyd]

You seem focused on DC and Marvel/Atlas. What about the big sellers from that time period - Dell, Classics Illustrated and Archie? Sales were much higher on those books during those years than DC and Atlas. Dell's sales were so high that they were not involved or impacted by the creation of the Comics Code Authority.

 

I would find it hard to believe that those books are being submitted in high numbers to CGC though. As for overall Atom and Silver Age Atlas/Marvel submitters seem to focus mainly on the hero titles, so the monster books, et al. that dominated Atlas titles of that era are doubtlessly submitted at a much lower ratio. Yes, Marvel was being distributed by DC at the time, and I do agree that the quality of books in that era is fairly poor - it continued to be fairly poor into the first year+ of hero Marvel books.

 

And DC - it would be interesting to know if the same is occuring - without looking I would surmise that there are a much higher ratio of hero Showcases and Brave and the Bolds submitted than non-hero ones... ditto for higher submissions of Flash, Green Lantern, JLA and Hawkman over the same era issues of Detective, Batman, Action, Superman and Wonder Woman. It would make sense to submit non-hero DC and Atlas/Marvel titles of that time period ONLY if the books were keys or of a high grade.

 

Kev

[NoImSpartacus]

Weren't birth rates down during WW2? That would contribute to how many boys were born who would have been the right age to be buying the books. If the average age for a child to start buying comics is around 12, that would correspond with 1954-1957. It's possible since there were fewer boys running around, there were fewer comics being bought and collected. That may not be the #1 reason, but I betcha it was a contributing factor.

 

Interesting contributing factor I had not thought about before!!! Thanks for the extra incite!!!