Just got some boxes back from CGC

[blazingbob]

And this is not directed at you but something I've stated before and I'll keep on saying it. Soapbox being set up.

 

You and I are in a hobby where the formal training is the reading of a guide to learn how to grade by watching others, doing it yourself and if you are openminded asking others for help. The 'GRADING IS SUBJECTIVE" statement seems to be the standard because there is no cut and dry interpretation of the original Overstreet price guide grades and the grading guides over the years. If you were taught by a ballistic grader than you grade ballistic, If you have been taught by someone who is loose well there you go. As dealers go you "assess" your grading skills by comparing your stuff to other dealers. If enough collectors don't agree with your grades maybe, just maybe you'll think about changing those grades. There is NO dealer or CGC grader for that matter that has a certificate from a grading school stating that they know how to grade. Many assume that they know how to grade. Or spot restoration for that matter. I know it's not that easy to do but how exactly would you approach a dealer or collector and broach the topic of "How did you learn how to grade" or "Who taught you how to grade?"

 

I learned as a teenager and have been learning ever since. And when CGC came into the market I learned some more. To the point where I think that CGC doesn't grade to how the general population does. If I did feel that the general population graded like CGC I would be able to buy raw books from collectors and dealers and confidently get CGC grades that were close. And I don't just like Bob's small sample shows. All that tells me is that a lot more people out there DON'T know how to grade.

 

If dealers haven't been to grading school what makes you think that many of them have gone to restoration class? Again, they learn by doing or being taught. I've learned by working with Vinny, having Steve Fishler show me work that has been done, Matt Nelson has taken time to show me examples. Marnin Rosenburg taught me about pressing long before this forum existed. And even what he's taught me has been expanded by asking and learning from others.

 

It is a dealers responsibility to not sell you restored books but I think you have to ask how long they've been doing this. Tactfully ask about their grading and restoration ability. If they have a restoration policy I would assume they know how to spot it but I wouldn't count on it. All it takes is some money, a sign, maybe a display and you are a dealer. Trust him because he paid $65 or $500 to buy a table that he can spot restoration, not me.

 

 

 

It amazes me how many customers blindly call themselves restoration/grading experts and IMO I think a lot of them will be very disappointed later on when and if they ever decide to get them graded. Maybe it is a pollyanna attitude on my part, but I feel it is the dealers responsibility to not sell me restored books, not my responsibility to catch his mistakes. What am I paying the dealer for? Their charm and rapier wit?

[ArAich]

I mean, you can tell me if I'm wrong. But if you're saying that CGC grade doesn't matter and/or doesn't impact the value of the book, then that's odd to me.

 

 

CGC grade does matter...I'm just saying that you should have a working knowledge of what CGC may grade a book before even sending it in...

[Sid]

My take on this is quite simple...if I buy a book from someone and it comes back from CGC lower than what they graded it at then I blame myself...I should've known whether the grade was correct or not...

 

Besides...if I buy a book from anybody and I agree with the assessment yet I send it in to CGC and they grade it a full grade lower...then what's the dif???...I was happy with it before sending it in so why should I be dissappointed after having it slabbed...

Just remove it from the slab and be happy again...

 

I agree with this sentiment. I doubt I'd agree with all the grades CGC gives out. I know I know I'm just a newbie and CGC are comic giants but I know what I believe to be the grade of a book. I don't like the idea that if CGC grades higher then what you first decide then it's cookies and cream but if they grade lower then the seller must be suspect. The only other 'angle' I can see on this is if this was done purely for experiment, but it's obvious it was not. He bought the books and assigned them grades and sent them out to CGC. Sometimes they were lower, sometimes higher.

 

As far as restoration well I won't argue that's pretty sad to miss for a big dealer.

[rob_allan]

I mean, you can tell me if I'm wrong. But if you're saying that CGC grade doesn't matter and/or doesn't impact the value of the book, then that's odd to me.

 

 

CGC grade does matter...I'm just saying that you should have a working knowledge of what CGC may grade a book before even sending it in...

 

oK I'm not going to argue over something silly. But I will say that the point of this thread is a DEALER overgrading (and hence not having working knowledge of CGC grading) and not the BUYER. The dealer is acting in the professional capacity in this transaction. And also, unless CGC publishes grading criteria, then working knowledge of what they grade a book is only going to come through dealing with a volume of CGC books and figuring out the grades yourself. And this is something the dealer is clearly not doing. Which, is the problem pointed out in the original post.

[Ze-man]

Wow Bob, is that you? That was a very nice post.

 

Did you drink 3 cups of coffee already or what?

 

And I agree with you, it is more a case of the dealer being responsible for what they are selling. Especially if it's an online transaction, because all your charm, wit, and "good looks" are thrown out the window when dealing online. So all we have left is your word that a book was not CT'ed.

 

And I might add CT is the hardest type of resto to spot consistently, even if you know what you are looking for.

 

Ze-

[G.A.tor]

hello all...

I just shot Bob an email before I read his post above, regarding some grading questions I had on a few books he has for sale that I am interested in....I think the key to a potentially successful transaction, is to ask questions first, see how your (the buyers) philosophy on grading compares to the sellers philosophy...as Bob said above, learn from and exchange ideas ...and then use cgc to "confirm" what hopefully we agree on....in the past 7 years, CGC has set the standard for grading (or reset from pre cgc days). I think if you listen to the majority of collectors new and old, they will go with or accept cgc's grade over there own, a good bit of the time (I am sure there are seasoned and new collectors that don't agree with this, or don't plan to cgc their books, so it is irrelevant to them, but from my experience, the majority seem to rely on cgc)....I sometimes get caught up in "chasing" the cgc label, when I know it should be "buying" the book....but, in todays comic collecting world, we pretty much accept the fact that CGC does/has set the standard, and thus does affect the value of books...ulitmately, no one is ever going to get it right all the time...so, talk about it first, and then go from there..

rick

[Sid]

hello all...

I just shot Bob an email before I read his post above, regarding some grading questions I had on a few books he has for sale that I am interested in....I think the key to a potentially successful transaction, is to ask questions first, see how your (the buyers) philosophy on grading compares to the sellers philosophy...as Bob said above, learn from and exchange ideas ...and then use cgc to "confirm" what hopefully we agree on....in the past 7 years, CGC has set the standard for grading (or reset from pre cgc days). I think if you listen to the majority of collectors new and old, they will go with or accept cgc's grade over there own, a good bit of the time (I am sure there are seasoned and new collectors that don't agree with this, or don't plan to cgc their books, so it is irrelevant to them, but from my experience, the majority seem to rely on cgc)....I sometimes get caught up in "chasing" the cgc label, when I know it should be "buying" the book....but, in todays comic collecting world, we pretty much accept the fact that CGC does/has set the standard, and thus does affect the value of books...ulitmately, no one is ever going to get it right all the time...so, talk about it first, and then go from there..

rick

 

Great point. Obviously going blindly based on the label is the wrong way to go, but the prices a lot of books go for, that is the safest path specifically through online transactions with strangers. Would I trust majority of sellers on this forum's grades on raw, YES, would I trust majority of grades given on eBay, NO. If you can see the book in person, CGC's grade doesn't matter since you're holding it and can & will form your own opinion.

[Bullet123]

My point is that people think they are getting a bargain on RAW books vs CGC when you can see in black and white that someone like me, who has very little grading experience and admittedly call myself a novice, that I can be just as successful in matching CGC grades as the dealer who has many years experience in this hobby. The main difference between my EBAY and convention purchases is that I did not pay more than guide for any of my books, in fact many a % of guide. With this particular dealer, every book purchased was at least guide and in most case more like 150% of guide before you factor in the that they were off on at least 50% of the books compared to CGC. and a full 20% of them came back PLOD vs a whopping 0% for my purchases. I just think that the buying public out there has blinders on when it comes to RAW books and would just like to hear from some of them what their rational for buying RAW vs CGC is and why they do not buy more CGC books forcing the hands of some dealers to have more CGC inventory. I am not saying I wholeheartedly agree with every CGC grade, but at least I know when I buy a slab, that I will have a much easier time convincing the next owner of that book that it is what I say it is because of CGC.

[TeddieMercede]

Bullet,

 

What was the dealer's response when you asked him about the CGC screening idea.

[Sid]

I would assume nowadays most high end books purchased raw is in hope for a flip.

[Bullet123]

Bullet,

 

What was the dealer's response when you asked him about the CGC screening idea.

 

Click

[Ze-man]

Sid, this has absolutly nothing to do with the topic at hand.

 

I listen to a local radiostations webstream, WKLU while I work upstairs, anyhow.. the song "Long Cool Woman (In A Black Dress) " came on as I was reading your post, I noticed your avatar was dancing in perfect beat to the song. I sat and watched him for a few minutes, and had a really good laugh.

 

Thanks for the laugh Sid

 

Now back to the comic talk.

 

Ze-

[Sid]

Sid, this has absolutly nothing to do with the topic at hand.

 

I listen to a local radiostations webstream, WKLU while I work upstairs, anyhow.. the song "Long Cool Woman (In A Black Dress) " came on as I was reading your post, I noticed your avatar was dancing in perfect beat to the song. I sat and watched him for a few minutes, and had a really good laugh.

 

Thanks for the laugh Sid

 

Now back to the comic talk.

 

Ze-

 

[sborock]

Bob-

GREAT POST!

 

No one is perfect, no one can get everything correct, everybody can always learn more, and none of us went to "Grading School".

 

Leaving "collector somtime sellers" out of the equation, I have always thought before CGC, and since I have fouind myself to be correct, that there are 4 kinds of sellers out there:

 

1: A very reputable dealer who conducts his business, tries very hard to grade, check for resto, and price as best they can. They also take time to keep learning how to spot restoration so that they may serve their customers better in the future and have less returns. (Bob happens to fall into this catagory).

 

2: Major and Moderate size dealers that can grade well and spot restoration well, but push the grade and turn a blind eye to minor restoration to make more $ or at the very least hopes the collector discovers the restoration years later, they refund the $ and get a interest free loan. When the next person comes along to buy it, most of the time they will now tell them it has minor resto.

 

3: Major and moderate size dealers that just don't care. They knowing sell restored books and if/when it is returned, they just refund the money and sell it to the next sucker.

 

4: New dealers. They usually have a passion for the hobby and will start out with the best intentions and will either get caught early if the are a very fraudulent seller or they will stick around and become either dealer catagory 1, 2, or 3. With CGC and the internet to help keep them in check, without a 10 year or more reputation to quote to buyers (too many of them fall into 2 &3), most will hopefully not fall into the greed trap and become dealer catagory 1.

 

This does not take into account Ebay dealers, but many fall into those 4 as well.

 

[Ze-man]

With this particular dealer, every book purchased was at least guide and in most case more like 150% of guide before you factor in the that they were off on at least 50% of the books compared to CGC. and a full 20% of them came back PLOD vs a whopping 0% for my purchases.

 

Hi Bullet, I think based on the list you posted, the dealer had them listed around 9.0 some higher, a few lower, and in doing so asked for above guide since it is common to pay more for HG. So of course one should expect to pay above guide when buying close to NM books.

 

His grades might have been too high accross the board, but some of the books still graded out at 9.0 So in the end I would ask you if you felt the extra price bump was worth it for a 9.0 type book (missed resto aside)compared to the below guide 7.5 price you recieved from other venues.

 

Hope that made sense.

 

Ze-

[CKB]

Robert,

Was it Amateur or professional work?

 

Minor or Major?

 

What exactly was the work? just color touch? Sorry, didn't see the earlier post that it was slight color touch.

 

Did you call for the notes and verify where the color touch was in order to show the dealer what he missed? Was it a "tiny" amount or full blown Magic marker up and down the spine?

 

Slight Professional color touch. I just got the boxes last night so I have not had a chance to call in for grades. To me, it really does not matter where the color touch was except that it would be a good to know what to look for assuming I could even tell after being told where it was. This is not directed at you Bob but this is why guys like me who buy books get frustrated with the dealer community. I am happy to spend money on books. I just want to feel that I am getting what I paid for and the only way for me to feel that way is with CGC books. It amazes me how many customers blindly call themselves restoration/grading experts and IMO I think a lot of them will be very disappointed later on when and if they ever decide to get them graded. Maybe it is a pollyanna attitude on my part, but I feel it is the dealers responsibility to not sell me restored books, not my responsibility to catch his mistakes. What am I paying the dealer for? Their charm and rapier wit?

 

If they came up as "P" touches, I would give the dealer a bit of a break. I find properly done, professional CT very hard to see. The stuff done with acrylics is very hard to detect looking at the book in normal light. There's no bleed and color matches can be near perfect. I'm not sure even the mythical utopian dealer would put every $50-$100 GA book under a blacklight or whatever it takes to see those.

 

If they were "A" touches, well, that's different.

[rob_allan]

Bob-

GREAT POST!

 

No one is perfect, no one can get everything correct, everybody can always learn more, and none of us went to "Grading School".

 

Leaving "collector somtime sellers" out of the equation, I have always thought before CGC, and since I have fouind myself to be correct, that there are 4 kinds of sellers out there:

 

1: A very reputable dealer who conducts his business, tries very hard to grade, check for resto, and price as best they can. They also take time to keep learning how to spot restoration so that they may serve their customers better in the future and have less returns. (Bob happens to fall into this catagory).

 

2: Major and Moderate size dealers that can grade well and spot restoration well, but push the grade and turn a blind eye to minor restoration to make more $ or at the very least hopes the collector discovers the restoration years later, they refund the $ and get a interest free loan. When the next person comes along to buy it, most of the time they will now tell them it has minor resto.

 

3: Major and moderate size dealers that just don't care. They knowing sell restored books and if/when it is returned, they just refund the money and sell it to the next sucker.

 

4: New dealers. They usually have a passion for the hobby and will start out with the best intentions and will either get caught early if the are a very fraudulent seller or they will stick around and become either dealer catagory 1, 2, or 3. With CGC and the internet to help keep them in check, without a 10 year or more reputation to quote to buyers (too many of them fall into 2 &3), most will hopefully not fall into the greed trap and become dealer catagory 1.

 

This does not take into account Ebay dealers, but many fall into those 4 as well.

 

 

This is absolutely true. People should copy this down and decide which one they are dealing with before they buy.

[Sid]

When is that book on detecting resto. going to be done? I haven't seen any updates on it.

[Mr. Zipper]

there are 4 kinds of sellers out there:

 

Would you please post examples of each type for our reference?

 

[sborock]

there are 4 kinds of sellers out there:

 

Would you please post examples of each type for our reference?