Captain America 1 CGC 8.0: a cautionary tale

[comicparadox]

Recently, I agreed to purchase a Captain America #1 (my "grail" book) listed as a CGC slight professional 8.0, c/ow pages. The seller disclosed that had been removed from the CGC case. My contingency for purchase was for the seller to send the book back to CGC ("walk-thru" grading fee at MY expense), whereupon if the re-submitted book indeed was 8.0, I would complete the purchase. If the book graded higher than 8.0, we agreed to re-negotiate, with the understanding that I would pay more for the book. On looking at the on-line images, I thought the book was likely to grade an 8.0, but I had not physically evaluated the book.

 

I'd like to point out that the seller had no obligation to agree to my condition for purchase. The seller had the book on consignment, and had sold the book to me at a favorable price, since the book had been available on the market for some time. The consignor had reportedly purchased the book years ago as an unrestored high grade copy, and had paid a substantial sum even by today's standards for this book. I presume that the book was "freed" from the CGC slab in order to view the restoration, which was reinforcement only, no color touch or trim per CGC's initial evaluation in 2001.

 

The book was sent to CGC on Friday. It was re-graded today. Amazingly, all 3 graders re-graded it consistently. The book now is graded at 6.5 c/ow with slightly brittle pages. I paid several hundred dollars for the walk-thru grading fee, but have nothing to show for it. That's the bad news.

 

The good news is that I didn't end up paying 5 figures for a book that's now worth mid 4 figures at best. I am truly sorry for the consignor of the book, and for the seller (who has been nothing but honorable in his role). But I am glad I took the precaution of having the book evaluated by a 3rd party professional organization. Say what you will about what internet commerce and 3rd party grading have done for (or to) the comic collector hobby, but I am now even more of a believer in CGC.

[MCMiles]

Smart move on your part. I think I know what book you are talking about. i wonder if they are still going to try to sell it.

[Aman619]

wasnt it already an 8.0??? How did it become only a 6.5 this time thru CGC?

[october]

I'd care more about the slightly brittle pages than the grade drop, though both obviously suck. Just chalk it up to a learning experience (and a bullet dodged) and more on.

[mr.schomburg]

I am curious as I too had been watching that book for a while and thought about pulling the trigger on it more than once. Is there a corelation between the material CGC uses and pages becoming brittle. It appeared the book was still encased in the inner well, but had been removed from the hard outer case. I have heard of many cases just like this one where the comic had off-white pages and then after 3-5 yrs in case was removed and regraded only to have lower page quality.

 

Mind you I am not knocking CGC here, just want to know what studies have been done to proove that the material used is indeed archival and safe for long term use. I have been thinking alot about removing all of my slabbed books for this reason. As even comics I have had for 30 yrs in Mylar show no signs of page quality deteriation. Any info would be greatly appreciated.

Paul

[showcase4]

I have heard of many cases just like this one where the comic had off-white pages and then after 3-5 yrs in case was removed and regraded only to have lower page quality.

 

This did not happen with The Fortress.....the greatest comic book holder of all time. ( for sale to the general public )

Steve

[brasseye]

So books are stewing in their own gaseas juices inside slabs, and not being allowed to 'breath', or expel the harmful gases given off, as they can do inside mylars, and the like.

[G.A.tor]

So books are stewing in their own gaseas juices inside slabs, and not being allowed to 'breath', or expel the harmful gases given off, as they can do inside mylars, and the like.

hello all...

it is my understanding that the cgc case is not air tight (maybe the inner well is?), and does allow for the transfer of gases (I read this somewhere, but I might not be accurate in this)....

also, how long had the cap 1 been removed from the cgc case?...what elements was it potentially exposed to that could have affected the page quality? did any handling cause "damage" that would warrant a lower grade?...just asking questions, as the majority of my collection is in cgc cases, and inquiring minds want to know

gator

[chrisco37]

Here are links to a few old threads concerning the outer and inner wells of the CGC holder. Some of these are really long threads (I apologize for not condensing them) and some may be redundant:

 

CGC Well Testing

Note: This thread starts out talking about CGG (now PGX), not CGC well. If you read thru the many pages, it will begin discussing CGC's well.

 

American Association of Comic Collectors (some info on CGC well scattered in)

 

CBM article about CGC Holder

[The Black Hand ®]

No matter what a comic is encased in,(as long as it's not old, acid filled cardboard or the like) it will react to the environment it is in. If you stick your cgc entombed comics in an attic in the south somewhere for a year or two, it will most likely be bad for it. If you stick it in a cool, dry, dark and stable environment, it will most likely be well preseved.

[chrisco37]

No matter what a comic is encased in, it will react to the environment it is in. If you stick your cgc entombed comics in an attic in the south somewhere for a year or two, it will most likely be bad for it. If you stick it in a cool, dry, dark and stable environment, it will most likely be well preseved.

 

That does seem to be the key. Not what you put the book in, but where you keep the book.

[showcase4]

If you stick your cgc entombed comics in an attic in the south somewhere for a year or two, it will most likely be bad for it. If you stick it in a cool, dry, dark and stable environment, it will most likely be well preseved.

 

Vince,

You're in Florida, right?

Man, it sure does get hot and humid down there......I'm in Maryland, and have a dry, cool, low humidity basement. Why don't you ship all of your comics to me, and I'll store them for you -- no charge

Steve

[skybolt]

From my experience CGC will hammer a book in grade if it has brittle pages. I once purchased an inexpensive GA book from a dealer that was advertised as 8.0, but came back 4.0 from CGC due to the brittle page notation. The book had no other significant defects.

 

As far as the change in page quality is concerned, I wonder if it has more to do with CGC's interpretation this time around than whether the book actually deteriorated further. Slightly brittle pages may mean that one page corner was given the pass the first time around, but was noted by CGC this time. CGC has stated in the past that their designation of page quality has slightly changed since they started their business.

[The Black Hand ®]

If you stick your cgc entombed comics in an attic in the south somewhere for a year or two, it will most likely be bad for it. If you stick it in a cool, dry, dark and stable environment, it will most likely be well preseved.

 

Vince,

You're in Florida, right?

Man, it sure does get hot and humid down there......I'm in Maryland, and have a dry, cool, low humidity basement. Why don't you ship all of your comics to me, and I'll store them for you -- no charge

Steve

 

Actually, I'm in northern california, near the oregon border and our problem is humidity, so I store my comics in a humidity controlled walk in closet. As far as shipping them to you, my collection is pitiful compared to most people on the boards, with my only claim to fame being a Top Notch run and some Archie stuff.I haven't bought a book for about three months, some disapointing Crippen MLJ's. Im just an observer now I guess.

[mr.schomburg]

From my experience CGC will hammer a book in grade if it has brittle pages. I once purchased an inexpensive GA book from a dealer that was advertised as 8.0, but came back 4.0 from CGC due to the brittle page notation. The book had no other significant defects.

 

As far as the change in page quality is concerned, I wonder if it has more to do with CGC's interpretation this time around than whether the book actually deteriorated further. Slightly brittle pages may mean that one page corner was given the pass the first time around, but was noted by CGC this time. CGC has stated in the past that their designation of page quality has slightly changed since they started their business.

 

PGX is the same, I have seen 1.5 to 2.0 grade drop for slightly brittle pages. I recently sent a book in that was an easy 6.0, but came back 4.5 with slightly brittle pages....So maybe it was just page interpretation, but I must say it is of concern for me.

[Silver Surfer]

The PQ might have suffered but CGC has been overly hard on some GA books/grades lately.

[comicparadox]

wasnt it already an 8.0??? How did it become only a 6.5 this time thru CGC?

 

The book had been graded in the past (2001) as an 8.0 (old label PLOD slight professional restoration). The seller, from what he told me, removed the book from the CGC slab (both the outer and inner slab), almost immediately placed it in a Fortress and then into his safe. I don't know the humidity/temperature etc, obviously. When resubmitted yesterday, the book was sent to CGC still in the Fortress, according to CGC. It graded at 6.5 - that's all I know.

[comicdonna]

The PQ might have suffered but CGC has been overly hard on some GA books/grades lately.

I have noticed this as well. I was beginning to think I was the only one. I have also found that, they have tightened up on page quality. I have a good test book for page quality the next time I submit.

[Mephisto]

wasnt it already an 8.0??? How did it become only a 6.5 this time thru CGC?

 

The book had been graded in the past (2001) as an 8.0 (old label PLOD slight professional restoration). The seller, from what he told me, removed the book from the CGC slab (both the outer and inner slab), almost immediately placed it in a Fortress and then into his safe. I don't know the humidity/temperature etc, obviously. When resubmitted yesterday, the book was sent to CGC still in the Fortress, according to CGC. It graded at 6.5 - that's all I know.

 

Hope it wasn't a fire proof safe...

[Silver Surfer]

The PQ might have suffered but CGC has been overly hard on some GA books/grades lately.

I have noticed this as well. I was beginning to think I was the only one. I have also found that, they have tightened up on page quality. I have a good test book for page quality the next time I submit.

 

Just ask Rick about his MMC#11 and yes my HT#12 that I have ranted about on more than one occassion. Head scratchers to be sure.