KILLING JOKE vs. DARK KNIGHT RETURNS

[comix4fun]

would a sale like this increase bolland art overall or just the killing joke stuff? I know it's made an impact on KJ pages,but i'm wondering about the rest of the stuff he did.

 

 

Something this high of profile will bump everything a bit...hard to say how much.

 

His primo stuff should see the benefits of the overall rise in his market we have seen in he last 24 months...not just KJ but, Wonder Woman, Specialty pieces, Judge Dredd, Animal Man and DC covers of all kinds, etc..

 

While his KJ pages have move at triple digit annual percentages, the rest of his work has moved at anywhere between 25-75% annually.

 

But if you say had one of the only 3 "Batman" covers he ever did you'd probably want alot more today than you did last month....if you were foolish enough to sell it that is.

 

Not that I have a horse in that race (thumbs u

 

Chris

[heartened]

would a sale like this increase bolland art overall or just the killing joke stuff? I know it's made an impact on KJ pages,but i'm wondering about the rest of the stuff he did.

 

HIs other art may go up somewhat, but not as much as anything Batman/Joker related. Chris Caira and Joseph Melchior have two of his Batman covers, and I would say that those particular pieces will rise in value due to this sale more than, say, his Animal Man work. I would think his Flash and Wonder Woman covers would go up a good tick as well but, again, not to the same extent as his Batman work.

 

Hari

 

[cheekyj2112]

would a sale like this increase bolland art overall or just the killing joke stuff? I know it's made an impact on KJ pages,but i'm wondering about the rest of the stuff he did.

 

HIs other art may go up somewhat, but not as much as anything Batman/Joker related. Chris Caira and Joseph Melchior have two of his Batman covers, and I would say that those particular pieces will rise in value due to this sale more than, say, his Animal Man work. I would think his Flash and Wonder Woman covers would go up a good tick as well but, again, not to the same extent as his Batman work.

 

Hari

 

 

 

Did I hear my name?

 

The final hammer price on the KJ page surprised me - I wasn't expecting it to go over 30k.

But even if Eric was the high bidder, clearly at least one other collector thought it was worth the underbid.

I'd personally expect to see a knock on effect on Brian's Batman & Joker prices because they are his signature characters. Collectors looking for "substitute" KJ pieces aren't going to have a lot of choice given that the 3 aforementioned Batman covers are pretty firmly locked in collections, as is the Batman 400 story.

I may have overpaid to get my KJ but I'm certainly smiling now.

 

btw none of the Flash run exist as physical art.

 

Cheers

Joseph

 

http://www.comicartfans.com/GalleryDetail.asp?GCat=9492

[Kevin76]

would a sale like this increase bolland art overall or just the killing joke stuff? I know it's made an impact on KJ pages,but i'm wondering about the rest of the stuff he did.

 

HIs other art may go up somewhat, but not as much as anything Batman/Joker related. Chris Caira and Joseph Melchior have two of his Batman covers, and I would say that those particular pieces will rise in value due to this sale more than, say, his Animal Man work. I would think his Flash and Wonder Woman covers would go up a good tick as well but, again, not to the same extent as his Batman work.

 

Hari

 

 

 

Did I hear my name?

 

The final hammer price on the KJ page surprised me - I wasn't expecting it to go over 30k.

But even if Eric was the high bidder, clearly at least one other collector thought it was worth the underbid.

I'd personally expect to see a knock on effect on Brian's Batman & Joker prices because they are his signature characters. Collectors looking for "substitute" KJ pieces aren't going to have a lot of choice given that the 3 aforementioned Batman covers are pretty firmly locked in collections, as is the Batman 400 story.

I may have overpaid to get my KJ but I'm certainly smiling now.

 

btw none of the Flash run exist as physical art.

 

Cheers

Joseph

 

http://www.comicartfans.com/GalleryDetail.asp?GCat=9492

See this is what I was trying to explain when some people feel guilty about pulling the trigger on piece they feel they might have "overpaid" on or see someone "over charging" for such and such.Just because you "overpaid" now,doesn't mean you overpaid a year from now,this is why you have to stick to great artists.

[*paull*]

Just because you "overpaid" now,doesn't mean you overpaid a year from now,this is why you have to stick to great artists.

 

Of course. This is assuming, however, that the market is going to keep rising like it has been. If I believed what you believe, I'd put every dime I have into original art and sell it in a couple years for big profit. There are many things that could give the whole market a negative jolt or even for a particular artist. What if a particular artist who owns a lot of his original work suddenly decides to sell it all? That influx of supply could be enough to keep the prices of your piece at bay for years.

[Mister Trent]

Of course. This is assuming, however, that the market is going to keep rising like it has been. If I believed what you believe, I'd put every dime I have into original art and sell it in a couple years for big profit. There are many things that could give the whole market a negative jolt or even for a particular artist. What if a particular artist who owns a lot of his original work suddenly decides to sell it all? That influx of supply could be enough to keep the prices of your piece at bay for years.

 

Good enough reason to buy the art because you enjoy it.

[cheekyj2112]

What if a particular artist who owns a lot of his original work suddenly decides to sell it all? That influx of supply could be enough to keep the prices of your piece at bay for years.

 

But in the case of Bolland that's not an issue you'd need to worry about.

 

I do think that good examples by the "key" artists continue to gather pace with no slowdown in sight. I've always bought what I liked and have been fortunate in that they've obviously been popular with other collectors too.

 

If the winner of the KJ page turns out to be someone outside the established pool of known collectors then it would suggest to me that there is new blood (money) coming into the hobby.

 

Joseph

[*paull*]

I'm only talking about financial implications of following the advice given above. I only collect art I love and have no plans to sell, so the market only affects me if it keeps me from being able to buy more.

[Mister Trent]

Although I have no doubt that people will start to list their KJ pages at 25K, I dont think they are going to move at that price unless it is halfway decent (at which point it won't be 25K). Like the DKR market, people are only shelling out this kind of dough for really nice images. I know where a few DKR pages are but refuse to buy them since there is no action on the pages at all (television screens, etc). Quality will continue to rise but c'mon are collectors going to shell out 25K for a page that they will ultimately want to upgrade?

 

Hi Stephen,

 

I think the difference here is that there are only 46 pages for KJ, and many of them are locked up. So, yeah, people will pay what it takes because there is little to no chance of upgrading.... ever. And, unlike DK, there really are no "bad" KJ pages when you see them in person. With just 46 pages, each page is memorable and has meaning. Obviously, I'm a big fan of the book/story/art, so not everyone will see it my way. But, there are enough people who do, it seems.

 

Best,

 

Hari

 

There are lots of types of desirable (and memorable) artworks in shorter supply than the 46 pages of KJ pages mentioned here. Many of those are locked away in collections for the foreseeable future, also (and here I'm thinking of things like Ditko ASM covers . . .Wally Wood EC Sci-Fi covers, etc, etc.). . .

 

Although Bolland's work comes after my eras of interest, I certainly recognize his genius. A formidable talent, make no mistake. A part of me wonders why some of you aren't equally as enthusiastic about his other works (and, yes, maybe you are - but the furore here suggests otherwise). I'm sure KJ is a landmark publication, but is BATMAN really Bolland's signature work? What about his work for the country he comes from? From what I recall, Bolland was actively drawing for British comics several years before he made his mark in the US.

 

BATMAN I associate with long-standing American artists.

 

I'm no Bolland expert, but how much BATMAN-related art did he actually produce?

 

Are the Bolland KJ artwork collectors equally anthusiastic about artwork he produced for other publications?

 

I mean, I'm a huge Ditko fan, but my love of Steve's work is not merely restricted to ASM - I get a real buzz out of his other stuff, also.

 

Just curious.

 

Educate me . . .

 

 

[CAP Freak]

Dark night returns IMO

[Artemaria]

There was a nice Bolland Batman cover on eBay about a month ago for $10K.

 

I'm not certain if it sold at that price. . .

 

But based on this auction, if it did not sell, would that have been a blessing in disguise for the seller at that time?

 

 

[heartened]

Although I have no doubt that people will start to list their KJ pages at 25K, I dont think they are going to move at that price unless it is halfway decent (at which point it won't be 25K). Like the DKR market, people are only shelling out this kind of dough for really nice images. I know where a few DKR pages are but refuse to buy them since there is no action on the pages at all (television screens, etc). Quality will continue to rise but c'mon are collectors going to shell out 25K for a page that they will ultimately want to upgrade?

 

Hi Stephen,

 

I think the difference here is that there are only 46 pages for KJ, and many of them are locked up. So, yeah, people will pay what it takes because there is little to no chance of upgrading.... ever. And, unlike DK, there really are no "bad" KJ pages when you see them in person. With just 46 pages, each page is memorable and has meaning. Obviously, I'm a big fan of the book/story/art, so not everyone will see it my way. But, there are enough people who do, it seems.

 

Best,

 

Hari

 

There are lots of types of desirable (and memorable) artworks in shorter supply than the 46 pages of KJ pages mentioned here. Many of those are locked away in collections for the foreseeable future, also (and here I'm thinking of things like Ditko ASM covers . . .Wally Wood EC Sci-Fi covers, etc, etc.). . .

 

Although Bolland's work comes after my eras of interest, I certainly recognize his genius. A formidable talent, make no mistake. A part of me wonders why some of you aren't equally as enthusiastic about his other works (and, yes, maybe you are - but the furore here suggests otherwise). I'm sure KJ is a landmark publication, but is BATMAN really Bolland's signature work? What about his work for the country he comes from? From what I recall, Bolland was actively drawing for British comics several years before he made his mark in the US.

 

BATMAN I associate with long-standing American artists.

 

I'm no Bolland expert, but how much BATMAN-related art did he actually produce?

 

Are the Bolland KJ artwork collectors equally anthusiastic about artwork he produced for other publications?

 

I mean, I'm a huge Ditko fan, but my love of Steve's work is not merely restricted to ASM - I get a real buzz out of his other stuff, also.

 

Just curious.

 

Educate me . . .

 

 

Hi,

 

Bolland KJ art has reached these heights for multiple reasons. Late 80s was the peak of the Batman hysteria, right before the movie came out and shortly after Miller's Dark Knight Returns. Thus, millions of people read it and enjoyed it. Therefore, the issue rates very high on the nostalgia scale. Add to that the fact that this is Alan Moore. A great story, perhaps not his best, but definitely memorable for a one-shot. And, one-shorts are tough to write well. Add to that the fact that Commissioner Gordon's daughter gets shot, paralyzed and later becomes Oracle, and the fact that this is the first real in-depth depiction of the Joker's origin, and you've got some historic content here that forms part of the permanent DC universe timeline. Remember that the Joker Origin in Detective 168 is very vague (Case of the Red Hood) and only gets truly fleshed out here, something like 30 yeras later. Finally, Bolland creates the definitive Joker (for many people). To me, the best Joker's have been drawn by Bolland, with some serious influence by Marshall Rogers' run in the 70s. The art itself is beautiful to behold, with absolutely no mistakes, no white out, and drawn on oversized Silver Age size art. Add the limited number (46 pages) and the fact that when they go into collections they rarely if ever come out, and you've got one major demand.

 

Low supply + High demand = $$$$

 

Similar issues for Ditko ASM and the EC covers, as you mention, but I think the demand for KJ right now is much higher than those two. We are approaching the peak of when 80s collectors have grown up and have increasingly disposable income. How else to explain the fact that at least some folks would rather spend 35K on a Bolland KJ page when those same folks know they can get an awesome Ditko ASM fight sequence with a major villain for the same amount?

 

Best,

 

Hari

 

[comix4fun]

There was a nice Bolland Batman cover on eBay about a month ago for $10K.

 

I'm not certain if it sold at that price. . .

 

But based on this auction, if it did not sell, would that have been a blessing in disguise for the seller at that time?

 

 

 

That was actually a "Detective Comics" cover. Not from the "Batman" title.

 

The cover is worth at least $10k....it sold for almost that much in cash over 2 years ago, if the "camera angle" or character posing were slightly different I could see it selling for twice as much.

 

 

Placing something on Ebay for a week and starting it at 10k is not the best way to get people to pay up. For most of us we need more advance notice to pull that much cash together. For those that already have that much cash ready, their eyes were already on the heritage auction.

 

I think now would be a better time to list that auction, than the same time the same demographic is looking at something even better in another auction.

 

Chris

[Nexus]

The cover is worth at least $10k....it sold for almost that much in cash over 2 years ago, if the "camera angle" or character posing were slightly different I could see it selling for twice as much.

 

I don't know about the deal two years ago, but it did sell on Heritage last year for $7767.50 (with juice):

 

http://comics.ha.com/common/view_item.php?Sale_No=820&Lot_No=5450&src=pr

 

I remember thinking at the time that it was a lot of money for a decent, but not great, cover (I agree about the wonky camera angle). To a certain extent, I still do. I'd rather have the one great KJ page than five pieces similar to this cover in terms of quality and price. Not that that will happen anytime soon!

[comix4fun]

The cover is worth at least $10k....it sold for almost that much in cash over 2 years ago, if the "camera angle" or character posing were slightly different I could see it selling for twice as much.

 

I don't know about the deal two years ago, but it did sell on Heritage last year for $7767.50 (with juice):

 

http://comics.ha.com/common/view_item.php?Sale_No=820&Lot_No=5450&src=pr

 

I remember thinking at the time that it was a lot of money for a decent, but not great, cover (I agree about the wonky camera angle). To a certain extent, I still do. I'd rather have the one great KJ page than five pieces similar to this cover in terms of quality and price. Not that that will happen anytime soon!

 

 

I remember that auction now....it really confused me, at the time, because the person that owned it and sold it the year before got (according to him) $1300-1700 more than what the Heritage auction sale price was.

 

I paid no attention to that auction because I thought there was no way the reserve was set below what someone had just (supposedly) paid for it 12 months earlier.

 

I never liked the perspective on that piece, in any case.

 

However, the recent auction of the KJ page has forced me to "do the math" on how many other great Bolland pieces I can get for the total that this one piece sold for....it's quite a bit.

 

Chris

 

[Artemaria]

Chris -

 

I agree with your analysis on several counts.

 

First, setting a high initial price seems to always backfire. Even if auctions are of the same time duration, it seems as if the auction with the reserve gets more interest than the auction with the high price.

 

Second, the camera angle is pretty wacky. But there's a groin shot in the page that just went for $35K, so, I guess if it is Bolland and you are a capable enough artist that it doesn't look completely ridiculous, a wacky camera angle may not be fatal to the value (although I'm not a fan of the camera angle on the Detective cover).

 

Still, I think that in light of this auction, one or more of the underbidders may be real interested in getting their hands on a nice Bolland piece and that cover might be it.

 

By the way, does anyone know the identity of the winning bidder in the Heritage Auction?

 

There's been some speculation, but absent a posting, it remains unclear.

 

- A

[Mister Trent]

Although I have no doubt that people will start to list their KJ pages at 25K, I dont think they are going to move at that price unless it is halfway decent (at which point it won't be 25K). Like the DKR market, people are only shelling out this kind of dough for really nice images. I know where a few DKR pages are but refuse to buy them since there is no action on the pages at all (television screens, etc). Quality will continue to rise but c'mon are collectors going to shell out 25K for a page that they will ultimately want to upgrade?

 

Hi Stephen,

 

I think the difference here is that there are only 46 pages for KJ, and many of them are locked up. So, yeah, people will pay what it takes because there is little to no chance of upgrading.... ever. And, unlike DK, there really are no "bad" KJ pages when you see them in person. With just 46 pages, each page is memorable and has meaning. Obviously, I'm a big fan of the book/story/art, so not everyone will see it my way. But, there are enough people who do, it seems.

 

Best,

 

Hari

 

There are lots of types of desirable (and memorable) artworks in shorter supply than the 46 pages of KJ pages mentioned here. Many of those are locked away in collections for the foreseeable future, also (and here I'm thinking of things like Ditko ASM covers . . .Wally Wood EC Sci-Fi covers, etc, etc.). . .

 

Although Bolland's work comes after my eras of interest, I certainly recognize his genius. A formidable talent, make no mistake. A part of me wonders why some of you aren't equally as enthusiastic about his other works (and, yes, maybe you are - but the furore here suggests otherwise). I'm sure KJ is a landmark publication, but is BATMAN really Bolland's signature work? What about his work for the country he comes from? From what I recall, Bolland was actively drawing for British comics several years before he made his mark in the US.

 

BATMAN I associate with long-standing American artists.

 

I'm no Bolland expert, but how much BATMAN-related art did he actually produce?

 

Are the Bolland KJ artwork collectors equally anthusiastic about artwork he produced for other publications?

 

I mean, I'm a huge Ditko fan, but my love of Steve's work is not merely restricted to ASM - I get a real buzz out of his other stuff, also.

 

Just curious.

 

Educate me . . .

 

 

Hi,

 

Bolland KJ art has reached these heights for multiple reasons. Late 80s was the peak of the Batman hysteria, right before the movie came out and shortly after Miller's Dark Knight Returns. Thus, millions of people read it and enjoyed it. Therefore, the issue rates very high on the nostalgia scale. Add to that the fact that this is Alan Moore. A great story, perhaps not his best, but definitely memorable for a one-shot. And, one-shorts are tough to write well. Add to that the fact that Commissioner Gordon's daughter gets shot, paralyzed and later becomes Oracle, and the fact that this is the first real in-depth depiction of the Joker's origin, and you've got some historic content here that forms part of the permanent DC universe timeline. Remember that the Joker Origin in Detective 168 is very vague (Case of the Red Hood) and only gets truly fleshed out here, something like 30 yeras later. Finally, Bolland creates the definitive Joker (for many people). To me, the best Joker's have been drawn by Bolland, with some serious influence by Marshall Rogers' run in the 70s. The art itself is beautiful to behold, with absolutely no mistakes, no white out, and drawn on oversized Silver Age size art. Add the limited number (46 pages) and the fact that when they go into collections they rarely if ever come out, and you've got one major demand.

 

Low supply + High demand = $$$$

 

Similar issues for Ditko ASM and the EC covers, as you mention, but I think the demand for KJ right now is much higher than those two. We are approaching the peak of when 80s collectors have grown up and have increasingly disposable income. How else to explain the fact that at least some folks would rather spend 35K on a Bolland KJ page when those same folks know they can get an awesome Ditko ASM fight sequence with a major villain for the same amount?

 

Best,

 

Hari

 

Very interesting response, Hari. Thanks for taking the time and trouble to elaborate.

 

I think I may actually have seen a KJ page whilst visiting Ken Danker several years ago - during the time I was on vacation in Florida.

 

I think it's also interesting to note that some of the high-demand stuff (for this era of interest) is from the hands of British creators. Things like WATCHMEN, V, FOR VENDETTA and the aforementioned KILLING JOKE spring immediately to mind.

 

Unfortunately, American audiences are (mostly) unfamiliar with some of the real heavyweight talents of UK strip-illustration (simply due to the fact they never produced work for the American market).

 

Frank Hampson, Frank Bellamy, Don Lawrence, Ron Embleton, etc.

 

But getting back to the BATMAN theme, most decades have had their star artists. Not too familiar with the early works, but the likes of Infantino and Neal Adams re-defined/rejuvenated the character during their respective heydays . . .

[heartened]

My pleasure. Just trying to rationalize the insanity

 

Hari

 

[Nexus]

I think it's also interesting to note that some of the high-demand stuff (for this era of interest) is from the hands of British creators. Things like WATCHMEN, V, FOR VENDETTA and the aforementioned KILLING JOKE spring immediately to mind.

 

I think that's primarily attributable to one writer: Alan Moore. Generally speaking, WATCHMEN, V, MIRACLEMAN, etc. are in demand less for the art than the writing (KJ being the one notable exception).

 

But, yes, British comics from that era were revolutionary.

 

Unfortunately, American audiences are (mostly) unfamiliar with some of the real heavyweight talents of UK strip-illustration (simply due to the fact they never produced work for the American market).

 

Frank Hampon, Frank Bellamy, Don Lawrence, Ron Embleton, etc.

 

Sadly, I do not know these names. There are talented artists from all eras and country of origin, but unless they collaborated with someone like Moore, may never reach an audience outside their local one.

[pinupcartoonguy]

How can you not know Embleton's "Wicked Wanda"? And you call yourself a red-blooded male?