three things I always wondered about Chuck's Church collection

[cd4ever]

Burrel told me he loaned Chuck $2K. Chuck told me Burrel loaned him $2K.

Chuck told me he paid $2K for the collection.

So I am pretty sure that is what happened.

Good stuff, Richard! It`s awesome to finally have someone definitively confirm these figures!

 

Is this comic book history in the making???...

 

Nah. I never thought there was any big mystery. This stuff is pretty common knowledge among some of us "old timers". I am only forty four.

 

Geez, I don't know what is more pathetic, that you are recognized as darn "old" in our hobby but are only 44, or that you are only 4 years older than me and I'm "young"!

 

I think I am starting to feel old. Sigh.

 

If you're age starts with a 4, you can no longer be called young.

Based on averages you are much closer to the average life span than you are to your birthday.

 

Your welcome.

[adamstrange]

I recall reading that a large chunk of the books were stacked in two or three foot piles in the middle of the basement floor. Mostly western/crime type books late 40's -50's type stuff.

And the bulk of the premo GA superhero books were stored in a pantry or closet stacked from the floor to the floor joist and were stacked with the spines alternating.

The books that were purchased second hand are the pre-hero books like early Tecs(even Tec #27?) or Jumbos.

Also no funny animal books and no Nedors but Chuck mentions that there was a second closet that was empty except fot a box or two of pulps that were damaged by moisture from water pipes.

Are these known facts or more speculation?

 

I've also heard Chuck say it was way more then $2000.00 when he was interviewed by Vinny from metro. I made a post about it a while back if anybody would want to look for it.

 

There were later second hand books but the ones that people pay attention to are those early books which include Tec 27.

 

There were funny animal books in the collection but they were clearly not as proportionally well-represented as the other genres.

I wonder if old Edgar never collected them or the family threw then out before they figured they could get some cash for them.

 

There's been some comments that Chuck heard from the family that led him to believe that there might have been more comics that were already thrown out. These potentially could be the funny animals. There are definitely funny animals from Timely, DC and Fawcett but there aren't any Walt Disney C&S or any Barks issues.

 

 

[esquirecomics]

Burrel told me he loaned Chuck $2K. Chuck told me Burrel loaned him $2K.

Chuck told me he paid $2K for the collection.

So I am pretty sure that is what happened.

Good stuff, Richard! It`s awesome to finally have someone definitively confirm these figures!

 

Is this comic book history in the making???...

 

Nah. I never thought there was any big mystery. This stuff is pretty common knowledge among some of us "old timers". I am only forty four.

 

Geez, I don't know what is more pathetic, that you are recognized as darn "old" in our hobby but are only 44, or that you are only 4 years older than me and I'm "young"!

 

I think I am starting to feel old. Sigh.

 

If you're age starts with a 4, you can no longer be called young.

Based on averages you are much closer to the average life span than you are to your birthday.

 

Your welcome.

 

Yea, but when Cong Henry Hyde admitted he had an affair during his 40s, he said it was a "youthful" indiscretion.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Sal]

 

Geez, I don't know what is more pathetic, that you are recognized as darn "old" in our hobby but are only 44, or that you are only 4 years older than me and I'm "young"!

 

I think I am starting to feel old. Sigh.

 

If you're age starts with a 4, you can no longer be called young.

Based on averages you are much closer to the average life span than you are to your birthday.

 

Your welcome.

 

Yea, but when Cong Henry Hyde admitted he had an affair during his 40s, he said it was a "youthful" indiscretion.

 

"Youthful" in this case meaning "something a youth would do," not a representation about how young or old he was when he did the deed(s).

 

Put it this way; you're young - for a Galapagos Turtle

[esquirecomics]

 

Geez, I don't know what is more pathetic, that you are recognized as darn "old" in our hobby but are only 44, or that you are only 4 years older than me and I'm "young"!

 

I think I am starting to feel old. Sigh.

 

If you're age starts with a 4, you can no longer be called young.

Based on averages you are much closer to the average life span than you are to your birthday.

 

Your welcome.

 

Yea, but when Cong Henry Hyde admitted he had an affair during his 40s, he said it was a "youthful" indiscretion.

 

"Youthful" in this case meaning "something a youth would do," not a representation about how young or old he was when he did the deed(s).

 

Put it this way; you're young - for a Galapagos Turtle

 

Maybe the Galapagos Islands need a comic book store?

[Aman619]

Technically you're really discussing bends or warping as there wouldn't be any breaking of the fibers.

Is it? The fibers may not be broken, but they may have been permanently altered, and won`t come out unless (dare I say it?) they get pressed out.

 

The Church copies were not stacked in perfect alignment (and given the different published size of the books perfect alignment isn't possible across the whole collection). There is often a small dust shadow / sun fade where you can intuit there was a stacking misalignment but I have not seen any warping / bending on Church copies that coincides with them.

Exactly. The absence of such warping/bending as you call it is puzzling. Go create a 2 foot stack, let alone 7 foot, and misalign the books and let them sit that way for a year. I guarantee that on the bottom books, at least, there`ll be "warping/bending" along the edges of the misaligned book on top. Sure the cover stock of GA books was a lot heavier duty than the flimsy stuff used in the 70s-90s, but 7 feet of books pressing down for 30 years should overcome the heavier stock.

 

 

the effects of stacking might not be so damaging as I think about it due to overhang and the non alignment of the pages and covers. This would help to spread the weight around minutely, thereby lessening the impact in the pile in any one area of each cover. There wouldnt be a single line of impact gouging the book below it. (Think of each cover as a shim between the books. If covers were SHORTER than the pages we would have a different story.) And, along these lines, the WORST arrangement for a pile would be of say 1 foot of identically trimmed sized comics under 6 feet of comics whose trim size was uniformly and exactly some shorter dimension, where an edge was created (made out of 6 feet of paper) that impacted in ONE straight line on top of the bottom stack. But even here, only that first larget comics would get impacted.....sooo...

 

you know, I though I was on to something here! never mind.

[Warlord]

I heard that as well.

How much is $2000.00 1970 dollars today? $15000.00 or more?

 

$10,719.02

 

Source: The CPI inflation calculator uses the average Consumer Price Index for a given calendar year.

 

 

Gotta love the CPI, a government inflation calculation that ignores food and energy prices. That way the government can tell you there is no inflation (as long as you don't want to eat or drive).

 

 

There are many measures of CPI. The commonly known one that excludes food and energy is usually referred to as "core CPI". I think most of the headline CPI figures kicked around are more likely to include than exclude food and energy.

 

From wikipedia:

The older preferred measure of inflation in the United States was the Consumer Price Index....This index tends to change more on a month to month basis than does "core inflation". This is because core inflation eliminates products that can have temporary price shocks (i.e. energy, food products).

 

Now... back to the debate about how to stack comics with any warping....

[dekeuk]

 

I think most of the headline CPI figures kicked around are more likely to include than exclude food and energy.

 

No, the numbers most widely reported are ex-food & energy. That is why inflation numbers reported have been in the 2% range for the last 5 years while gas tripled, oil quadrupled, and fruit/veggie prices also made big moves upwards.

[thirdgreenham]

I think most of the headline CPI figures kicked around are more likely to include than exclude food and energy.

 

No, the numbers most widely reported are ex-food & energy. That is why inflation numbers reported have been in the 2% range for the last 5 years while gas tripled, oil quadrupled, and fruit/veggie prices also made big moves upwards.

 

Agreed

 

Andy

[Sal]

 

Geez, I don't know what is more pathetic, that you are recognized as darn "old" in our hobby but are only 44, or that you are only 4 years older than me and I'm "young"!

 

I think I am starting to feel old. Sigh.

 

If you're age starts with a 4, you can no longer be called young.

Based on averages you are much closer to the average life span than you are to your birthday.

 

Your welcome.

 

Yea, but when Cong Henry Hyde admitted he had an affair during his 40s, he said it was a "youthful" indiscretion.

 

"Youthful" in this case meaning "something a youth would do," not a representation about how young or old he was when he did the deed(s).

 

Put it this way; you're young - for a Galapagos Turtle

 

Maybe the Galapagos Islands need a comic book store?

 

well...i dunno, but i'm pretty sure they could use a lawyer!

 

[topofthetotem]

I recall reading that a large chunk of the books were stacked in two or three foot piles in the middle of the basement floor. Mostly western/crime type books late 40's -50's type stuff.

And the bulk of the premo GA superhero books were stored in a pantry or closet stacked from the floor to the floor joist and were stacked with the spines alternating.

The books that were purchased second hand are the pre-hero books like early Tecs(even Tec #27?) or Jumbos.

Also no funny animal books and no Nedors but Chuck mentions that there was a second closet that was empty except fot a box or two of pulps that were damaged by moisture from water pipes.

Are these known facts or more speculation?

 

I've also heard Chuck say it was way more then $2000.00 when he was interviewed by Vinny from metro. I made a post about it a while back if anybody would want to look for it.

 

There were later second hand books but the ones that people pay attention to are those early books which include Tec 27.

 

There were funny animal books in the collection but they were clearly not as proportionally well-represented as the other genres.

I wonder if old Edgar never collected them or the family threw then out before they figured they could get some cash for them.

 

There's been some comments that Chuck heard from the family that led him to believe that there might have been more comics that were already thrown out. These potentially could be the funny animals. There are definitely funny animals from Timely, DC and Fawcett but there aren't any Walt Disney C&S or any Barks issues.

 

 

Those are great. too bad no Barks ducks.

[jmg3637]

Richard

 

I certainly do not want to dispute your version of History as you were there, but I knoew it did not quite jibe with what I had read from Chuck in the "Tales from the Database".

 

I went back and re-read much of the story from there.

 

According to the story Chuck had worked out a ber chicken box price for the entire collection prior to even seeing the best half of it( the Golden Age books Hidden in the closet)

 

He paid out of his own pocket for the first half ( about 10,000 books) and hauled them away that day.

 

He borrowed money from one of his customers/friends and used that money to meet his weeks expenses and came back a week later to pay for and take the remaining 8000 books.

 

At this point Chuck had paid for all of the books, but wanted to also buy/salvage other items from Mr Church. He then perhaps a week o more later, flew to Houston for a 2 day. It was during the 2nd day of this show that Chuck first met and SOLD some of the books to Burrell.

 

Chuck used the Money from Burrell to purchase another load of items from the Church heirs, however it was not comics it was boxes of clippings and another van load.

 

2 weeks after Chuck purchased those clippings Burrell , along with Bruce Hamilton, came to Colorado and purchased additional books from Chuck at a discount off then then Overstreet Guide value. Perhaps Burrel advanced Chuck $2,000 along or as a part of his prior purchase, and came out to Colorado to select the books for his repayment.

 

In any event it seems that the $2,000 from Burrell had nothing whatsoever to do with the purchase of any of the Church comic books as those books had been paid for in cash prior to Chuck ever meeting Burrell. and that that $2,000 was used to purchase some of the clippings and other personal items of Edgar. Chuck says that he overpaid for these later purchases as he knew he got an outstanding deal on the comics.

 

Chuck goes on to tell how he made additional purchases of Edgars personal items on several occasions after the initial books and how he brought a Pulp dealer into the transaction and they purchased additional items from the heirs.

 

So this leaves us not really knowing how much in total Chuck paid for either the comics or in total to the heirs for the paper contents of the house.

[adamstrange]

JMG has shown that the story told by a dis-interested 3rd party (Richard) doesn't square with the story told by an interested party (Chuck). There's nothing unusual about that in relationship to comics history or in looking back at any other historical event. More facts and more testimony from more sources are better than the opposite.

[esquirecomics]

 

Geez, I don't know what is more pathetic, that you are recognized as darn "old" in our hobby but are only 44, or that you are only 4 years older than me and I'm "young"!

 

I think I am starting to feel old. Sigh.

 

If you're age starts with a 4, you can no longer be called young.

Based on averages you are much closer to the average life span than you are to your birthday.

 

Your welcome.

 

Yea, but when Cong Henry Hyde admitted he had an affair during his 40s, he said it was a "youthful" indiscretion.

 

"Youthful" in this case meaning "something a youth would do," not a representation about how young or old he was when he did the deed(s).

 

Put it this way; you're young - for a Galapagos Turtle

 

Maybe the Galapagos Islands need a comic book store?

 

well...i dunno, but i'm pretty sure they could use a lawyer!

 

 

No reason why not to do both!

[Comicdey]

I've said this before, but when I went to college in colorado and would go to the MH auctions in denver around 1986-1989, I was told by one of the people that helped chuck inventory the collection, that a collector fronted Chuck money for first rights on the "DUCK" books.

 

I've since been told that this rumor is untrue....but I still hope among hopes that some collector out there had a backstreet deal with Chuck for all the duck books and that Chuck has never revealed the current owner.....

 

Maybe some day we'll all be surprised with a Duck "original owner collection surfacing".

[tth2]

JMG has shown that the story told by a dis-interested 3rd party (Richard) doesn't square with the story told by an interested party (Chuck). There's nothing unusual about that in relationship to comics history or in looking back at any other historical event. More facts and more testimony from more sources are better than the opposite.

It's like watching Rashomon being played out on the Boards!

[adamstrange]

JMG has shown that the story told by a dis-interested 3rd party (Richard) doesn't square with the story told by an interested party (Chuck). There's nothing unusual about that in relationship to comics history or in looking back at any other historical event. More facts and more testimony from more sources are better than the opposite.

It's like watching Rashomon being played out on the Boards!

 

Like this is the first time?

[Warlord]

I think most of the headline CPI figures kicked around are more likely to include than exclude food and energy.

 

No, the numbers most widely reported are ex-food & energy. That is why inflation numbers reported have been in the 2% range for the last 5 years while gas tripled, oil quadrupled, and fruit/veggie prices also made big moves upwards.

 

Maybe you are watching CNN too much or reading too many dumbed down newspapers... Try Bloomberg or CNBC or pick your favorite business news source... Usually they even refer to it as "headline CPI", then proceed to report the core CPI ex food and energy....

 

Anyway..... back to the comics discussion before we debate which CPI figure appears in the news WAY MORE than the other any further.

[jmg3637]

Actually I think that both stories are true. I think that you just have to find a way to make them both fit.

 

all it takes is a minor change in Richard's version. the 2000 was used in the entire Church Transaction, just not in the initial 2 partial purchases, which contained all the comics

 

Other wise you have to change the entire transaction from chuck version. Chuch has to find the books but not purchase any of them until he contacts Burell ( who he does not know) and gets $2000 magically transfered to him on the come. Now after getting this first chunk of money he used it spread out over 2 trips/weeks. I am sorry this just does not fit for a truely disinterested third party. Also that would have to make Chuck's loan from a customer/friend be total fiction as well as the books that the friend got out of the transaction being later sale to Geppi be an embelishment that could likely be verified to discredit him.

 

I am not doubting Richard at all, but the rememberence of the exact wording of a conversation from 30 years ago by a then 14 year old as to the dealings of his boss could much more easily be off by a word then the entire history as writen by Chuck, especially when they can be made to fit.

[adamstrange]

Actually I think that both stories are true. I think that you just have to find a way to make them both fit.

 

all it takes is a minor change in Richard's version. the 2000 was used in the entire Church Transaction, just not in the initial 2 partial purchases, which contained all the comics

 

Other wise you have to change the entire transaction from chuck version. Chuch has to find the books but not purchase any of them until he contacts Burell ( who he does not know) and gets $2000 magically transfered to him on the come. Now after getting this first chunk of money he used it spread out over 2 trips/weeks. I am sorry this just does not fit for a truely disinterested third party. Also that would have to make Chuck's loan from a customer/friend be total fiction as well as the books that the friend got out of the transaction being later sale to Geppi be an embelishment that could likely be verified to discredit him.

 

I am not doubting Richard at all, but the rememberence of the exact wording of a conversation from 30 years ago by a then 14 year old as to the dealings of his boss could much more easily be off by a word then the entire history as writen by Chuck, especially when they can be made to fit.

 

I like to let the comments play out as the participants tell it before trying to make them fit. There's no guarantee they ever will in which case each person will have to make their choice about what to believe.

 

I have discussed the Church collection with Richard more than 10 years ago and what he's saying now is consistent with what he told me back then. Richard will be able to add more detail but he wasn't talking about conversations that only occurred when he was 14.