On 2/1/2022 at 5:04 PM, Beyonder123 said:

Keep in mind I'm not super knowledgeable on this subject, but is it possible that these were distributed in the UK, but specifically in an area that used American Dollars. Like perhaps a military base?

 

Edit: I do acknowledge that Harvey books would be a strange thing to distribute to military personnel, but there are examples of Disney Mark Jewelers Inserts.

It's also quite possible they were distributing the books in other markets we haven't figured out yet, or were considering doing so if the smaller books proved a success.  While I have no idea what the break point would be, I assume at some point it stops being worthwhile printing regional price variants.  At that point defaulting to an US price for an US publisher would seem the reasonable default approach to me.

All I can say is that if there are any UK based boardies that find a bunch of these and want to sell, they have a customer in me. The good thing is that Harveys, variants or not, are cheap  

Postage these days is not  and trying to acquire them one or two at a time isn't viable.

On 2/2/2022 at 9:45 PM, Jeffro. said:

All I can say is that if there are any UK based boardies that find a bunch of these and want to sell, they have a customer in me. The good thing is that Harveys, variants or not, are cheap  

Postage these days is not  and trying to acquire them one or two at a time isn't viable.

Yes, the huge increase in overseas postage has killed off a few of my collecting habits too. Gone are the days of $9 flat rate postage...

I'll probably end up being the only one collecting them over here, so I'll let you know if I build up a reasonable dupes war chest.

On 2/2/2022 at 5:14 PM, Get Marwood & I said:

I'll probably end up being the only one collecting them over here, so I'll let you know if I build up a reasonable dupes war chest.

Well then, I hope you find a bunch more. 

On 2/2/2022 at 11:22 PM, Jeffro. said:

Well then, I hope you find a bunch more. 

I did quite well at the last London fair, but there were a few dealers who didn't turn up. Next one is in March so fingers crossed they'll be there and may have something. Jim told me you were a big Harvey fan so any dupes I find have got your name on them. We seem to be the only ones collecting them!

Here's an observation which may or may not be telling.

The 15c variants have four less wraps, coming in at 36 pages to their regular edition's 52. In the majority of cases, it is the first four wraps that are missing. When looking through a few copies today, it struck me that the removal of the first four wraps effectively removed all the ad pages. 

Here is an internal snapshot of the 25c regular edition of Richie Rich #116 (September 1972), which has a unique indicia in the 15c variant owing the the first four wraps being absent. The first and last internal 15c pages are highlighted in the middle:

As we can see, the internal pages of the first four wraps contain all the ads. There are no ads among the 34 internal 15c variant pages, in the copies I have checked so far.

This may be a coincidence, or it may be by design, consciously removing ads that would not apply to a UK audience. I'm erring on the side of coincidence, as these US focussed ads have always appeared in comics imported to the UK, even when they had printed UK prices. But it's an interesting coincidence, isn't it and, if it were a deliberate act, it would yet again support a UK distribution argument as being the reason they exist.

Hmmmm 

Hands up who doesn't love their Postman? 

A nice big pile of 25c/20c copies arrived today, to help me work through the indicia comparisons and, hopefully, drive out a target maximum 15c variant list 

What else can we do on a Monday?

I'll keep you all posted.  Of course, I say 'all'....

I finished the first pass of my 'what might exist / what likely won't' review last week and it runs to four pages of A4 commentary before I add the charts and pictures 

There doesn't seem to be much interest in this journal, so rather than bore everyone with it now I'll wait for a few more books that I've ordered to turn up, then try to pair it down a bit. With a bit of luck, a whole segment will disappear if the content of a handful of books turn out to be as I expect 

In the meantime, no new 15c variant examples to report. Notwithstanding what I have discovered, and the theory I have presented, Harvey comics are exceptionally scarce in the UK. Hardly any dealers have any and even eBay is a comparative graveyard. If any others do exist, it might take a good while for them to show.

I'm plenty interested, I just don't have anything to contribute.  Although i am keeping an eye open for books in the time frame I can check for the secondary indicia.

On 2/15/2022 at 6:36 AM, Get Marwood & I said:

Harvey comics are exceptionally scarce in the UK. Hardly any dealers have any and even eBay is a comparative graveyard. If any others do exist, it might take a good while for them to show.

Considering that we're talking about low value comics that are not on many collector's radar and were probably consumed by younger kids at the time, it doesn't surprise me one bit that dealers don't have them. I'm sure many of them don't want to take up inventory space for comics that very few will want. That's why I think the best place to find these is at flea markets, antique fairs or shops, or junk type stores. Maybe at a tag (car boot or jumble) sale? 

On 2/15/2022 at 7:24 PM, Jeffro. said:

Considering that we're talking about low value comics that are not on many collector's radar and were probably consumed by younger kids at the time, it doesn't surprise me one bit that dealers don't have them. I'm sure many of them don't want to take up inventory space for comics that very few will want. That's why I think the best place to find these is at flea markets, antique fairs or shops, or junk type stores. Maybe at a tag (car boot or jumble) sale? 

Yeah, it's Marvel and DC all the way over here. Very few dealers with eclectic stock I'm afraid Jeffro. And you just don't see comics much at boot sales or in charity shops anymore. There's nothing like the flea markets that I see people like Robotman post stuff from. I worked for a charity with 9 retail shops for 8 years and saw two comic collections come in in all that time.  Anything like that tends to go straight in the eBay pile anyway now, alas. They're all wise to it now, charity shops, with the internet. I'll keep looking though. 

This post comes with an 'Outrageous Speculation Alert'  so only read on if you're genuinely interested in these books (or Dotty) 

In consideration of what further 15c variants might exist, I have broken the possibilities down into four categories:

1. Books cover dated before April 1972
2. Books cover dated after October 1972
3. Issue gaps among the known 15c variant titles
4. Titles with no 15c variants in the 15c variant cover date range

Before I comment on each, here is a quick recap of what we currently know:

• Earliest cover dated 15c variant – April 1972
• Latest cover dated 15c variant – October 1972
• Number of titles published between those inclusive cover dates – 41
• Number of issues published between those inclusive cover dates – 102
• Number of titles with one or more 15c variant confirmed – 13
• Number of 15c variants confirmed – 30

If the starting assumption is that any Harvey book within the 15c variant cover date window could have a variant copy we have:

• 28 titles with no 15c variants confirmed
• 72 additional issues which could theoretically have a 15c variant extant

Here are my thoughts on what further books might exist in each of the four categories – there is a lot of speculation here, so don’t take any of it as fact. It could all change with one out of pattern book discovery (and often does!).

1. Books cover dated before April 1972

My current assessment is that there will be no 15c variants cover dated prior to April 1972, the date the first known variant appears. Apart from my usual ‘gut feel’ the reasons for this are as follows:

• We haven’t found one yet (very obvious, but currently very true)
• We’ve only found one April variant, followed by six in May, which to me implies a beginning which ramps up
• Harvey published only six titles in April, but seventeen in March. I would expect one of those March issues to have shown by now, if they exist, given that eight of the seventeen are 15c variant bearing titles
• The early April/May 15c variant issues have a ‘getting started’ feel to them, with no standard indicia pattern and some cover dressing mishaps

So for the time being, I’m going for zero additional 15c variants in this time frame.

2. Books cover dated after October 1972

I also believe that we will not see any November cover dated 15c variants. The reasons this time include:

• We haven’t found one yet (still obvious, still true)
• All of the 15c variant bearing titles are priced 20c from this point, a price that was acceptable to the UK market (see my UK lower page count request theory, outlined earlier in the journal). Maybe the September books snuck in before the message to abandon got through. 
• I have evidence of November dated books, circulating in the UK, with price sticker residue and pencilled prices that indicate they were UK distributed. If 15c variants were made especially for the UK market, you wouldn’t expect to see many 20c copies with UK distribution marks - they would be priced 15c

I accept that they’re not exactly smoking guns there, but I think we can discount all books from November onwards at this stage. That brings us back to a starting scope of 41 titles and 102 books.

3. Issue gaps among the known 15c variant titles

In respect of the thirteen confirmed titles, I believe that all the missing issues could have 15c variants. I have plotted the indicia types for the twenty three 15cv copies I own to show which has a unique indicia and which has the regular version (click to enlarge):

As you can see, after a mixture in April, May and June, the unique 15c indicia seems to bed down from July onwards and become standard. If that standard practice was fully observed, then it would follow that any July / August / September dated 25c copy would have the variant indicia on the 11th page and, therefore, a 15c variant should exist. The four missing July / August / September issues are:

• Little Audrey & Melvin #54
• Little Dot Dotland #54
• Playful Little Audrey #102
• Spooky #131

As we can see from the following charts, Audrey #102 and Spooky #131 both have the unique 15c indicias on the 11th page in their 25c copies. So I expect them to have 15c variants:

The other two titles I have yet to see inside the 25c copies, but expect them to have the unique indicias too - I'll update you when I finally find copies - even the 25c versions are hard to get hold of it seems:

So that's July to September done.

If we then look at the first three months, we have one April 15c variant book (Richie Rich #113) of three possible:

If we look on Mikes Comic Newsstand, we see that all three April books have the same ‘on sale date’ of the 15th of January:

If, say, Richie Rich #113 had a later date than the other two books, I could see how it could have made the cut date-wise to be the first and only April 15c variant. But if the three books all have the same production date, then you would imagine, as titles in scope for the 15c experiment, that all three would have had a 15c copy printed.

One word of caution here, though - I mention often in my research that the dates on MCN often don’t correlate with the date stamps that we see on the actual books themselves. Here are two examples (just illustrative).

First up, Wendy #74 which has an ‘on sale’ date of the 15th of May, according to MCN:

Sure enough, here is my regular 25c copy with a 16th May date:

A very close match 

Not so close here though, for my copy of Devil Kids #55, which has an eleven day difference:

The word of caution here, is that the dates on MCN might not relate closely to the printing order. This opens the possibility that our Richie Rich #113, whilst having the same ‘on sale’ date as the other two in scope April books, may have been printed later and, therefore, be the only April book that made the cut. Pure speculation of course, but worth pointing out.

All that said, for now, I’m going to stick my neck out and expect our other two April books – Wendy #72, and Sad Sack & The Sarge #94, to appear one day. I can’t rely on the indicia to be informative in these copies by the way, neither 25c copy has the 11th page 15c indicia, but we know that doesn't discount them as the indicia correlation scenario is only cemented from July onwards.

The three missing May and June books are:

• Little Lotta #101
• Spooky #130
• Wendy #73

My charts for these three show that Wendy #73 has a unique 15c indicia on the 11th page of the 25c copy, so that I expect to see it as a 15c variant:

Spooky #130 doesn't have the unique indicia in the 25c copy, but we know that the 15c variant may still exist as May dated 15c variants have a mixture of regular / unique:

Little Lotta #101 I have yet to see, but the same theory applies:

So I think all nine of the missing books may exist in this group.

4. Titles with no 15c variants in the 15c variant cover date range

There are 41 titles in the April to September 1972 15c Variant cover date window with 13 having one or more variant confirmed. I believe there could be a fourteenth title – Richie Rich Riches. I believe that because issue #1, dated July 1972, has the unique 15c variant indicia on the 5th wrap / 11th page of the 25c regular copy. This to me is a strong indication that a 15c variant will exist as that indicia scenario exists in all the July 15c variant books I have checked to date. We have a fly in the ointment however, in that the 25c copy of issue #2, cover dated September, doesn’t have the 15c indicia on the 11th page. So we have a conflicting picture there. All eight September 15c variants have the unique indicia so for issue #2 of Riches to not have it pushes me to think that the #1 may have it in error or that it's an odd one issue variant wonder. Time will tell – Richie Rich Riches #1 is a could be, #2 an unlikely.

Turning to the remaining 27 titles, I have the following three groups:

Titles where no 15c Variant is expected to exist due to the August / September cover dated 25c issues having no 15c Variant indicia on the 5th internal wrap (page 11):

• Casper & Nightmare (#35-38) – #37 (August) has no 15cv indicia
• Casper Space Ship (#1-2) – #1 (August) has no 15cv indicia
• Casper's Ghostland (#66, 67, 68) - #68 (September) has no 15cv indicia
• Devil Kids (#54-56) – #54 and 55 (August) have no 15cv indicia
• Hot Stuff Sizzlers (#49, 50, 51) - #50 (August) has no 15cv indicia
• Richie Rich Diamonds (#1-2) – #1 (August) has no 15cv indicia
• Richie Rich Dollars & Cents (#48, 49, 50, 51) - #50 (August) has no 15cv indicia
• Richie Rich Fortunes (#4-6) – #4, 5 and 6 (September) have no 15cv indicia
• Richie Rich Millions #53-55 – #54 and 55 (September) have no 15cv indicia
• Richie Rich Money World #1 – #1 (September) has no 15cv indicia
• Sad Sack Navy Gobs 'n' Gals (#1-2) – #1 (August) has no 15cv indicia
• Sad Sack with Sarge and Sadie (#1) – #1 (September) has no 15cv indicia
• Sad Sad Sack World (#36, 37, 38, 39) - #38 (August) has no 15cv indicia
• Spooky Spooktown (#44, 45) - #45 (September) has no 15cv indicia
• TV Casper and Company (#36, 37) - #36 (August) has no 15cv indicia
• Wendy Witch World (#44-45) – #44 and 45 (September) have no 15cv indicia

As we know, it’s looking very likely that all July, August and September 15c variants have unique 15cv indicias. If true, then the absence of a variant indicia on the 11th page of a 25c priced book for those months is a very strong indication that no 15c variant will exist. I have discounted all the above titles on that basis.

October 20c titles where no 15c Variant is expected due to there being no preceding issues in the 15c Variant date window:

• Baby Huey, the Baby Giant (#98) - #97 is dated October 1971
• Casper and Spooky (#1) – First issue
• Casper and Wendy (#1) – First issue
• Little Lotta Foodland #29 - #28 is dated October 1971
• Richie Rich Bank Book #1 – First issue
• Richie Rich Jackpots #1 – First issue
• Spooky Haunted House (#1) – First issue

Whilst not conclusive, it’s difficult to see Harvey printing 15c variant copies for books that have their first issue in October, the final 15cv month. Similarly, books that have an October issue, but no preceding issue in the variant window are also unlikely to appear. I have discounted this group too, on that basis.

TBC (yet to check indicias):

I have yet to locate a copy of these following books, so cannot make a judgement at present. None of them have a UK distribution history however, so are unlikely to feature I think.

• Little Dot's Uncles and Aunts #42, 43 (no August/September issues)
• Richie Rich Success Stories #43, 44, 45, 46
• Sad Sack Laugh Special #65, 66, 67
• Sad Sack's Army Life Parade #39, 40, 41, 42

(August / September issues in bold)

I'll update this as and when I pick up a copy.

Conclusion

So, if we recap on the four categories, we can see a projection of a further 10 15c variants potentially being out there, making an overall total of 40:

• Books cover dated before April 1972:
  • 0 additional 15c variants
• Books cover dated after October 1972:
  • 0 additional 15c variants
• Issue gaps among the known 15c variant titles:
  • 9 additional 15c variants
• Titles with no 15c variants in the 15c variant cover date range:
  • 1 additional 15c variant (Richie Rich Riches #1)

In other words, after all that, the nine blanks on this chart...

...plus one - maybe two (maybe none) - Richie Rich Riches.

Time will tell if I'm right. I probably won't be, but it was fun putting this all together and gathering up 25c copies to look inside. They did like a yellow cover didn't they:

Yellow comic! 

Updated version:

And the full issue tracker, which I haven't shown yet:

Ok, Velma. I'm in. Sorry I've missed this until now. I knew you had something on the boil. Nice work, as usual. I was just toying with the idea of collecting Harveys & you've given me a gentle shove over the line. 

Seriously though, I admire your tenacity when it comes to research. Really thoroughgoing. I just wish I had the time to devote to some of my own pet projects. So, if it's not clear enough from the rest of this, I'm saying thank you for digging this interesting gem of comicdom from the sh!theap of Western culture. 

P.S. - how many are we still looking for?

On 2/23/2022 at 10:35 AM, rakehell said:

Ok, Velma. I'm in. Sorry I've missed this until now. I knew you had something on the boil. Nice work, as usual. I was just toying with the idea of collecting Harveys & you've given me a gentle shove over the line. 

Seriously though, I admire your tenacity when it comes to research. Really thoroughgoing. I just wish I had the time to devote to some of my own pet projects. So, if it's not clear enough from the rest of this, I'm saying thank you for digging this interesting gem of comicdom from the sh!theap of Western culture. 

On 2/23/2022 at 10:35 AM, rakehell said:

P.S. - how many are we still looking for?

Depends how rubbish my theories are Patricia, but probably anything between none and the nine missing gaps in the chart here:

With an outside chance of a few more. 

On 2/23/2022 at 10:58 AM, Get Marwood & I said:

anything between none and the nine missing gaps in the chart

Got it. I'll save these specific issues in my searches & see if I can turn any up. 

On 2/23/2022 at 10:58 AM, Get Marwood & I said:

With an outside chance of a few more. 

I like an outside chance. I find it's easier to measure failure using the quantity theory. 

Speak soon. 

Also, I meant to say...

'Look Velma! It's the Mystery of the Harvey 15c variants!' 

'Jinkies!' 

Me? Distracted? Pff!

Amazing stuff!

YOU should be publishing books. Your level of detail and research on yet ANOTHER price variant that no one knew of is just the best to read about. It really is. Applause all around, I am a fan!

On 2/23/2022 at 4:01 PM, comicginger1789 said:

Amazing stuff!

YOU should be publishing books. Your level of detail and research on yet ANOTHER price variant that no one knew of is just the best to read about. It really is. Applause all around, I am a fan!

Stop it. You're making me blush, Eric 

On 2/23/2022 at 11:14 AM, Get Marwood & I said:

Stop it. You're making me blush, Eric 

If I can ever contribute to anything Canadian related don’t hesitate to ask!

Thirty one....

I wish we knew the back story of why these 15 versions exist. Speculation is fun but having something from the horses mouth would be great. Speculation and educated guesses are probably what we will have to fall back on. You'd think Harvey kept records but even if they did, do they still exist?

On 3/6/2022 at 6:32 PM, Jeffro. said:

I wish we knew the back story of why these 15 versions exist. Speculation is fun but having something from the horses mouth would be great. Speculation and educated guesses are probably what we will have to fall back on. You'd think Harvey kept records but even if they did, do they still exist?

If they did I would imagine that the author of the Harvey Companion would have unearthed them by now, given his contacts and the depth of his exploration into the publisher. It's probably destined to be yet another one of those things we will never know. And only fifty years ago, in this case. The UK link is inescapable I think, but there are a number of reasons why that might have happened. Finding them all will be fun though. That is one of my favourite things to do in life. Pottering outside the circle, trying to join the dots. 

I agree with you on the UK link and I also agree that we'll probably never know the reason why these exist. I think it's pretty safe to say that these were not price test market copies like the 30 and 35 cent Marvels.