lou_fine

Wow!!!! That book is amazing!!!! How in the world can we tell since this is just a front cover scan only and as many have already said loudly and clearly here, tells us absolutely zippo about the rest of the book and its actual technical or visual condition? Lucky for you, I went and did my due diligence and checked out the back cover scan before placing my leading bid. Then I realized the obvious error of my ways after reading some of these thought provoking posts here and realized that although the scans only showed 2 absolutely stunning and gorgeous pages of this 68-page book, is it possible that the other 66 pages within the covers might just be all blank or just a POS. Hope somebody here takes out my high bid or I might just have to contact HA to cancel my bid, but most of all, I hope the owner of this book here had the smarts to check out all 68 pages of the book after they had brought it.

I've heard that you should never ever pay for Graders' Notes because they do NOT list the major defect(s) that would take the book down beyond high grade, as they list only the most insignificant defects that would have the least amount of impact on the grade of a book.

Totally agree with you 100% and that is also exactly what I was alluding to in my prevous posts from up above, as repeated below here: Although this is definitely true for books that might appear to be possibly undergraded, it is a lot easier to tell if a book is possibly overgraded from a scan, especially in the case of clear and obvious visual defects which other books in equivalent grades would generally not have. Unfortunately, although this would indeed appear to be common sense, I believe we cannot say such things on these boards here as it would get the acolytes' undies all in a knot and nonsensical stuff would spew out from their buttocks, instead of common sense from their little gray cells.

I can appreciate where you're coming from; some books appear to be nicer than their assigned grade. But I'm sure there's a reason this book received a 7.0 instead of a higher grade. And I do hope you understand that "punishment grading" by any CGC grader would be grounds for immediate dismissal. There are some things CGC won't tolerate... It should be pointed out that I was basing my comment on not just the picture of the front cover of the book, but also upon what the original boardie (who I believe is telling the truth here, even though others are seemingly hinting otherwise) said in quotes as to what was listed in the Grader's Notes plus his own visual analysis of the book vis-a-vis the Notes which I simply took at face value. As for my usage of "punishment grading", you are most likely seeing something in there that's probably more nefarious than what is actually intended. From MY point of view, "undergrading" or "overgrading" is when a book is possibly off by only 1 or 2 grading condition levels which I would consider to be within reason since grading is really nothing more than just a subjective opinion at a particular point in time when a book crosses a grader's desk. By "punishment grading" or "gift grading", from my own personal POV is when a book is off by 3 or more grading condition levels, because hey, these graders here are supposed to be so-called "experts" and I feel that would probably be beyond MY personal threshold or acceptable margin of error. For some others here though, it sounds as though 5 or 6 grading condition levels might be acceptable, but that's alright also since it's really a case of to each their own. As for either "punishment grading" or "gift grading" (as per my definition above), it's probably much more a case of additional training required, as opposed to grounds for dismissal, and once again, this being from my own personal point of view here.

I've followed their weekly Sunday auctions buy they've always been digital- never seen one with real people. I know the Thursday Platinum portion of their Signature Auctions are always done with live auctioneers while their Saturday portion is not. Not sure about their Friday portions though since it's usually not comic books, so I tend to skipped that. Doesn't appeared to be the case here though, as it seems that the Promise Collection is scheduled to hammer on June 18th which is a Friday and I highly suspect it will definitely be with the live auctioneers.

Rooting for PL17 but wouldn’t tsleep on the Tec 140, the Riddler is more iconic and well known than Grundy or Phantom Lady. Lone highest graded (for those who care) of a book that seems not to show up often in high grade. Seems like a 100-150k book easy. I would probably tend to agree with you here except that I personally never really cared for the comic book version of the Riddler myself (liked him in the Gotham TV series though) and out of the 3 covers that we are talking about, the one for 'Tec 140 is by far the least appealing out of the three. Not sure if the census matters here, but 'Tec 140 appears to be a lot more common with a total of 193 copies slabbed to date which is more than both PL 17 (105 total slabbed copies) and AA 61 (only 67 total slabbed copies) combined.

Literally in consecutive sentences. Literally cannot comprehend or understand that "possibly undergraded" has the exact opposite meaning of "possibly overgraded".

I don't believe you are allow to say such positive things about a book that's been slabbed as only a CGC 7.0 graded copy, because that would be considered as absolutely blasphemous to the eyes and ears of somebody like his Lordship and his gang of loyal followers. Especially since we are supposed to be paying attention to the CGC label only and not try to relate it back to how the actual underlying book appears. Remember the mantra here: Buy the label, not the book!!!

I agree. The PL 17 will finish highest. I believe it's going to be a toss up between the PL 17 and the AA 61, and I guess only time will tell who's going to take the crown in the end. I suspect it might just be PL 17 due to the presence of a CGC 9.8 graded copy of AA 61 out there in some lucky person's private collection. Then again, we have seen other HG copies of PL 17 in the marketplace recently, whereas the highest graded copy of AA 61 to come to public market so far has only been a couple of CGC 7.5 graded copies as far as I can tell.

No, as it's quite obvious to me that somebody else here is also not paying attention to what's being posted here, as I had already clearly stated in my original response to this scan from @sfcityduck that you cannot accurately grade a book without actually having the book in hand: Although this is definitely true for books that might appear to be possibly undergraded, it is a lot easier to tell if a book is possibly overgraded from a scan, especially in the case of clear and obvious visual defects which other books in equivalent grades would generally not have. As I had also pointed out in my original post on this scan of the WDCS 69, it was also based upon the Grader's Notes that the defects were "light spine stresss lines" and "moderate creases" to the front cover which @sfcityduck stated that he could NOT see because they did not exist. From the scan, all I will say is that I have definitely seen more tiny spine ticks on books graded into the 8's and low 9's, as opposed to this CGC 7.0 graded book here:

Looks like this HTF and in-demand early Centaur is still going great guns and shooting on all cylinders, as evident by this week's CL auction: https://www.comiclink.com/auctions/item.asp?back=%2FAUCTIONS%2FALLSUB.ASP%3FFocused%3D1%26id%3D1052%26x%3D57%26y%3D17%26pg%3D23%23Item_1467764&id=1467764&itemType=0 Sold for what is most likely a record $2,100 amount for a CGC 2.0 graded condition copy or at over 7.5X Overstreet condition guide value.

Ummm.....................wouldn't that simply be nothing more than the polar opposite of what many call here as being "gift grades" by CGC? I guess you must not be paying too much attention as I believe we just saw one posted here earlier: Now, would that appear to be your usual CGC 7.0 graded book, especially if the Graders Notes identifies the defects to be "light spine stress lines" and "moderate creasing" to front cover, and yet the owner cannot see these defects because they apparently do not exist.

Much, much better deal than taking a chance on the brittle page book Definitely pretty much a steal of a deal in comparison at $250K or only $4K more for a book with much better PQ that is not going to be disintegrating on you anytime soon.

That's because the auction format for CL is set up similar to eBay auctions whereby lots can be won through last second computerized sniping bids. As such, if bidders are throwing in last second Hail Mary stratospheric bids in hopes of winning the lot because they cannot see what the other bidder is bidding at that point, you would also have to place a substantially higher blind bid if you really wanted to win the lot. Exact reason why I tend to avoid CL auctions because it is designed on the premise hoping that these last second bidders will come in, whereas I much preferred the CC 3-minute extended bidding format whereby I know exactly what the next bid increment is and exactly what I would have to bid if I wanted to win the auction.

I thought the 35 2.0 was a soft price, but the 36 2.5 seemed strong. Yes, I would tend to agree with you about the "'Tec 35 finishing on the low side since it was even about $2K under the Overstreet condition guide price.

Haven't the graders at CGC gone back and forth on this whole sun or dust shadow kind of defect and it's seemingly pretty much luck of the draw when your book goes through?

Absolutely surprised they would miss the light stress lines and moderate creases then. Maybe it's all of the inexperienced newbies they have working at CCS since the Master is not longer working on that side of the business to oversee that part of their operations. Maybe you are right in that they need to fire either somebody on their CCS side or on their CGC side of the operations then. Hopefully, you can go back and ask for a full refund that you had to pay CCS for NOT doing their job.

Well, if this book was graded in 2019, it should be pointed out that we are still in the "pressing regime" of grading right now and have been since 2016. Although it is probably pretty tough to see the light stress lines and spine ticks by simply looking at the book straight on, have you held it up at a certain angle to the light to see if you can spot any? Did you also send the book in for a pressing or at a minimum, a pre-screen for pressing prior to having it graded? I have been told by many that you are pretty much risking a severe case of punishment grading if you don't take the necessary precautions when you send a book in for grading with this current grading regime in place. From the scan here, it would definitely appear that the book has been severely undergraded from my own personal point of view, although you cannot accurately grade a book without actually having it in hand. Just wish that the Promise Collection books all looked as severly undergraded as your WDCS 69 here, but I guess they played the grading game by the known but unspoken rules and took the necessary precautions and got rewarded for it, instead of being punished like your gorgeous book here. BTW: I highly doubt that the grader got fired, as they most likely got a promotion for doing exactly what the CCG ownership wants in terms of identifying additional revenue generating defects which ends up adding to both their top and bottom lines.

I will second that, it's just certain pedigrees have a "extra added value" to an all ready great GA comic. book. I would most definitely agree with both of you in terms of the Allentown books since this is by far the smallest GA pedigree out there with a total of only 135 pedigree books in the entire collection, and virtually almost all of them in HG condition. As such, the Allentown's are generally locked away in private collection and hardly ever appears in the marketplace. In terms of overall condition, I remember taking a look at the early Fox books, and if I remember correctly, every single one of them (save for one) were either tied with the Church or graded higher than the Church copy in a head to head for the ones that have shown up in the marketplace over the years. I made the mistake of putting 3 of them up for auction way way back in the big Greg Manning Auction back in 2000 when CGC first opened their doors to test out this new 3rd party independent grading company at the time. From a strict money point of view though, probably not a mistake since I had picked then up for only 1.5X to 2.0X top of guide a few years earlier and they ending up selling for 3.5X to 7X top of guide. Still, wish I had the books in my personal collection since there's only 135 of them in existence.

I would definitely tend to agree with both of you that the Promise books are going to be selling at a pretty hefty premium for a few good reasons. Although the story is good because it pulls at the heartstrings cause by the loss of war, I feel the two other bigger factors will be the perceived high condition quality of the collection regardless of possible overgrading and the timing of the collection hitting the marketplace at just the right time. In terms of the back story to this Promise Collection, we seem to only be getting a snippet of it here, and it is rather similar in vein to the Tom Reilly story for the SF Collection.

I'd be sweating buckets. Well, you never know as a lot of the action for these auctions takes place on the last day as per usual. I remember watching those File Copies of the Flash Gordon's in CC's Event Auction last month and if I remember correctly, they were all under $200 with a few days to go, and yet, they all finished up at well over $2K by the time it was all said and done. Then again, of course I would much rather prefer being in the position like that CGC 9.6 graded copy of TMNT 1 which is already sitting at $56K or that CGC 9.8 graded copy of that common as dirt GSXM 1 already sitting at $50,999; and who knows how high they are going to finish up at. Will also be interesting to see how Jon Berk's former Church copy of Mystery Men 3 does since one of our very own esteemed board members here is putting that one right up in the same auction against all of those Promise Collection books.

I guess the new generation of collectors just can't hold onto their books for more than a few months as this book is coming up again: https://www.comiclink.com/auctions/item.asp?back=%2FAUCTIONS%2FSEARCH.ASP%3FFocusedOnly%3D1%26where%3Dauctions%26title%3Dwonder%2Bworld%26ItemType%3DCB%23Item_1467075&id=1467075&itemType=0#detail Jon Berk's former Church copy of Wonderworld Comics 3 which first sold for $51K back in the big Jon Berk Auction of 2017 and then resold last summer at CC for $64,111. Normally, I wouldn't think it would have much problems passing the $64K mark in this current red hot marketplace with the apparent new money coming in. The monkey wrench in there, however, is the presence of the Promise Collection books and if those books are going to be drag on the marketplace for other high dollar GA books coming into the marketplace. Then again, it is the Church copy and will definitely be interesting to watch the final few days as it is currently sitting at only $26,575.

Ummm..................there was absolutely zero problems in terms of the thread starting out the way it did with the with the scans of the gorgeous raw Promise books in all it's bright and beautiful glory that Lon had posted for all of us to salivate over. It was only when scans of the graded and slabbed copies started appearing on this thread here and and there seem to be a disconnect between the CGC grades on the holder from the actual book within the holder for several of the books that discussion then started up about the grading of the books. Believe it or not, the books from the Promise Collection are being sold as slabbed and graded books (i.e. not as raw books) and as such, it's fair game to talk about the grades which CGC has attached to them. At least I am an equal opportunity boardie since I at least posted in Moondog's thread what I believe was an undergraded book from the Promise Collection, whereas no other boardie has either not found one yet or not bother to post an example because they are too busy drinking their juice.

Sorry, my bad as I can now see it clearly.

It's definitely the same book. The discoloration around the staple is a dead giveaway. And yes, it looks worse after pressing—yet it has a higher grade; that's how CGC rolls. Not necessarily so as @N e r V listed the order incorrectly as the book went from CGC 7.0 up to CGC 8.0 before settling in at CGC 7.5. Looks like this exact same copy of Subby sold for $661.25 as a CGC 7.0 graded copy in 2003, then for $1,035 as a CGC 8.0 graded copy in 2004, before coming in at only $805 as a CGC 7.5 graded copy in 2005. Looks like nobody made money here on the all of the resubs except for Heritage, CGC, and the pressing company(s).