lou_fine

thank you, that saved me time! Unfortunately, he left out a key sentence in the middle which if it did not occur, that last sentence would not have shown up at all and we would have been left with only the first sentence all by itself. The key missing sentence to tie the above 2 sentences together being this: The quality of the grading by CGC on some of these books was not commensurate with the superb high quality of the collection itself, and as a result, has sadly besmirch the overall reputation of the Promise Collection as a whole due to several examples of egregiously terrible grading by CGC and all seeming to lean one way. The only saving grace here is that only a small fraction of the collection has been graded to date so far. This hopefully means that CGC can still redeem itself by bringing the quality of the grading up to the level that this historic pedigree collection so fully deserves, although this will certainly take time and a lot of accurately graded books because first impressions are always the one that tends to stand out and last the longest.

Is that the same copy of Subby 23 that was first graded as a CGC 8.0 copy back in 2003 and then got downgraded slightly to CGC 7.5 upon being regraded in 2005? Not sure about back then, but if this was today, I definitely would have been ecstatic with the CGC 8.0 grade and not try for a resub.

First of all, not sure why you are referring to Overstreet's grading definitions when CGC's own grading definitions have still not been published or disclosed anywhere at all, due to supposedly proprietary reasons? Nevertheless, if you were to slab the book according to Overstreet's grading definitions, I guess it really depends upon you definition of what is considered to be "minor" and how big or much you are willing to accept before it moves beyond the minor classification. Some fussier collectors might see a bindery chip that goes through every single page of the book from cover to cover as being more than minor, while some others might consider it to be only a minor amount. Another classic example of to each, their own, although CGC itself should have some type of standard for this which I guess nobody really knows what it is.

My post was pretty harsh but I still feel the same way about the grade. Roy; Exactly what book are you referring to here, since I seem to be getting lost in this maze of books that everybody's talking about here? If it's this copy of Subby 12, no matter how hard I look at the spine corners here, I don't really see much of a bindery corner issue here at all: https://comics.ha.com/itm/golden-age-1938-1955-/sub-mariner-comics-12-the-promise-collection-pedigree-timely-1943-cgc-vf-75-white-pages/p/7244-175250.s?ic16=ViewItem-BrowseTabs-Auction-Preview-SearchResults-120115&lotPosition=23|0#

Wow! Over 10,000 of them were ruined? Thanks for letting us know. That is awful news. Well, if that's the case, I am willing to take the hit and buy them all for full cover price then. Oh heck, since I am in a real good mood today, even at full Overstreet condition guide price then.

Most definitely, although it might have actually been into the very early 80's because I sincerely doubt that I would have been willing to pay that kind of ridiculous multiple to top of guide for a book like that at the time. It's too bad they don't give out receipts although I am not sure what their return policy would be anyways and highly doubt they would be willing to give you a full refund right after completely hosing you for your hard earned $5.

Not having anything at all to do with the new comic book market scene, but it does seem that Diamond has a somewhat adversarial relationship which is definitely not the wisest approach to be taking, especially when they are really your only customers. Speaking from a long term collector's point of view though, definitely not something good to see because Geppi himself has always been a strong supporter of the vintage comic book hobby place and has certainly been willing to throw some of his Diamond sourced money at it.

WTF: Are you sure this is right and it's from OPG 9 or 1979? If so, looks like I really got hosed on my copy by the dealer since I paid what is obviously a stratospheric price at the time then of $5 for my top row minty fresh wall copy at the local comic con back in the day.

Being the type of collector who would never ever even think of slabbing a book unless it came time to sell it, I find it even more strange to consider pressing a book until it came time to sell it. Especially since although pressed books might be the current "in" thing to do for acheiving higher values, are you not running the financial risk that the marketplace landscape in some future time period when it does come time for you to sell your book might not necessarily be the same. Classic case in point being the restoration of books which was seen as ADDING VALE TO A BOOK back in the late 70's and very early 80's. Turned out to be not so much after that short time period and certainly not with this certification age whereby restored books, instead of selling for higher values, have now been stigmatized through the use of the PLOD labels and are now actually selling for mere fractions of the value of their unrestored counterparts. Not sure how the marketplace will react if improving technology at the rate which we are progressing ends up allowing for the fast and cheap detection of artifically pressed books. Not sure about a company like Genamint right now who's talking about the automated machine grading of trading cards and the detection of pressing on them through simple stretched pixel analysis. But I am sure if they ever get something like that working effectively for trading cards, they will eventually transfer some aspects of that technology to comic books, especially since we seem to follow closely behind whatever happens in the trading card marketplace, slowly but surely. Not too sure if the current comic book grading companies would be too enthused about a possible game changer such as this here, but my bet is that if they see potnetial money in there for them, I am sure they would be jumping on board as fast their little feet can run. After all, they probably wouldn't want another thrid party service to come in and provide this kind of paid profitable service to the marketplace when they can take the market share for themselves based upon their established track record. I am quite sure if (maybe really more of when with this improving technology) this kind of service is made available to the hobby place, the demand from the marketplace will certainly be there. Especially from the those who would rather prefer to pay more for an unpressed book as opposed to one which was artificially maximized up to that same grade. My bet is that you would then end up with unpressed "virgin" slabbed books selling for more monies than the same equivalent graded pressed slab books, although most likely not quite to the same extent as Universal books to Restored books since we do have a lot of established fans of pressed books right now. Actually, if this scenario takes place with virgin unpressed books selling for more monies than pressed books in higher grades, I could even imagine some of these pressing companies of today reconfiguring themselves into professional creasing companies. Just imagine, trying to add artificial spine ticks and small creases to comic book covers in order to fool the new high tech machines in the hopes of getting an unpressed label or sticker because it would carry a whole lot more value for your comic book. Wouldn't that be a rather bizarro world, but at the same time quite possible in the not so distant future. Bottom-line: To each their own, but for me personally........................no slabbing, no chasing the census or Registry points while the books are in my personal collection because as history has clearly shown us already, you never really know what the landscape of the marketplace is or what the grading/restoration/labelling parameters will be when it does come time for you to sell your books.

Yes. That was discussed a bit in a few different threads when it popped up on ebay. CGC has changed the census as originally it did show as the 1939 like the label. Do not know if whoever ended up with it had the label corrected. Yeah, not sure why CGC would label the book like this because if somebody nefarious got a hold of the slab, they could very easily use it to perpetrate a scam or fraud on some unsupsecting buyer who doesn't really know any better. Especially if CGC had also listed it in their Census Population Report incorrectly as the original Superman 1 from 1939.

Actually, shouldn't this book here be properly labeled as Superman Masterpiece Edition from 1999 and not Superman #1 from 1939?

I can’t stand that song. They played it all the time I was in Arkham… Well, it's all about wholesome homebody Betty being not quite so wholesome and if you are locked up in Arkham, I can certainly see why YOU would be so agitated while watching and listening to this song as "performed" by our dear sweet Betty.

...with Betty and Veronica I decided to pull a "Deion" and choose BOTH ... B&V were my second loves, after Gwen ... and maybe Sue (... but that may have been an oedipus thing there... ) GOD BLESS.... Well, if you like both Betty and Veronica, then how about this clip from Riverdale with "naughty" Betty singing Mad World:

Oh, I see what you are talking about now................it's not so much that you might end up losing money, but the mere fact that you will be losing that #1 top position that you and some others might be coveting. Definitely a case of to each, their own, but I guess I initially missed your point because that aspect of it is just not part of my collecting DNA when it comes to these comic books here. Especially since I find that grading is really nothing more than just a subjective opinion (albeit an expert one) at a particular point in time when the book crosses a grader's table, as opposed to an exact science or number which money (ok, not Bitcoin ) basically is. Too many other factors that might also come into play that affects a grade for me to go out and pay unreasonable premiums for a slightly higher grade, with some of these being the seeming ongoing CPR game to artifically manipulate grades, grading errors since graders are only human after all, the seeming weaponizing of grades at certain key points in time to possibly fit a business agenda which has resulted in loose grading time periods versus tight grading time periods, etc. I guess when it comes to my GA comic books, just as long as it presents nicely and I am happy with it, that's good enough for me and I certainly would never ever feel the need to upgrade if it's going to cost me a lot more money. I guess just having the book is more important than chasing after the graded label. More power though to those who can afford to go after not only the book, but also the label. I guess I have always found that the highest graded label only carries transitory value since there is most likely another copy out there that's eventually going to come out in higher graded condition. Especially in the case of GA books whereby most of the better collections are probably still locked away in private vaults at this current point in time still waiting to be graded and slabbed.

What makes you think they could be sold anytime soon just because they are sitting in slabs? Especially since he hasn't sold any of them, save for the odd funny animal book or a few of the other later ones from the early to mid 50's.

Well, all I know is that whoever was the lucky guy to fork over $49,293.75 for this Billy Wright copy of All-Star made outy like a bandit becasue they ended up reselling the book to the comic book embezzler, (Anthony Chiofalo, I would assume) for $200K less than a week later through Heritage's Make Offer to Owner feature that they have on the right hand side of the auction listing description : https://comics.ha.com/itm/golden-age-1938-1955-/all-star-comics-3-billy-wright-pedigree-dc-1940-cgc-vf-85-off-white-to-white-pages/a/7054-91043.s?ic4=ListView-ShortDescription-071515

Although I fully agree with you that the longer time GA collector is most likely not heavily into the crypto market, if at all, I somehow got the feeleing that Heritage was hoping to attract some new found deep pocketed buyers that might be entering into the GA comic book market for the first time, with the bags of money that they had made with the big run up in crypto and stock market prices.

Well, not only the sellers, but also the owners of those raw HG books who are still holding them in their personal private collections, and in particular, the owners of these obvious candidates:

Just don't talk about Coronavirus, vaccinations, Post Office, Lysol disinfectant, certain dates of the year, etc. and you are good to go. I don't think anybody is accusing anybody else here of theft or fraud, but it's clear you don't know much about veritcally integrated businesses and potential conflicts of interest the unlocking of business synergies which doesn't always work out in the consumer's favor, or just turn a blind eye to. Although I highly suspect that you actually do. I guess the truth always hurts sometimes, but if you go back to some of the concerns that have been expressed over the years ever since this whole maximization of potential was uncovered about 15+ years ago, everything that we thought possible has sadly come to pass plus more. The fact that the CGC Mods allows us to discuss the varying viewpoints that different members have in this controversial area is indeed a credit to them and needs to be appllauded. As I have always said here, it is clear that the hobby place here is a lot better with CGC doing what they do for us, but yet at the same time, it could have also been so much better. Then again, I guess that's an idealistic dream world and business is business, and it's really up to each of us whether we choose to participate in it or not, as along as we are not blind and know the rules (both hidden and not hidden) of the game here.

Your Econ prof has clearly never met collectors of Hulk 181, TMNT 1, etc. Yes, let's think about this a bit here............hmmmmmmmm. CGC 9.6 graded copies of TMNT 1 were selling in the very high teens and low $20K's from about 2018 through to the start of 2020. Then there was a slew of sales in both grades lower than this right through to CGC 9.8's which surely should have brought the price crashing down if your supply side analysis is indeed correct. And yet instead, we see a CGC 9.6 graded copy sell for $66K at HA back on April 1st, only to be followed very shortly by a sale of another CGC 9.6 copy at CC for $88K only 2 short weeks after that. Or are you really trying to convince us that if the supply was kept low through no intervening sales from 2019 through to 2021, the price would have jumped from the high teens/low $20K's all the way into say 6-figures on just one transaction alone without any intervening supporting sales to confirm and acclerate the price movement trend upwards?

To really impact prices, however, the increase in supply has to satisfy most or all of the demand. I doubt having an extra copy or three of a widely sought-after HG GA book is going to satisfy demand. Yes, did you fail your Econ course as you have to look at BOTH sides of the supply and demand equation in order to arrive at your price point? For example, I don't buy your conclusion that the presence of this second highest graded copy of All-American 61 at CGC 9.6 is now going to satiate and satisfy the demand for AA 61 going forward and bringing prices down, especially since they had only 3 highest graded sales during the past 20 years and then at only CGC 7.5. The same with the Promise copy of Suspense 8 since this is the single only copy to grade higher than CGC 7.5 since they first opened their doors way back in 2000, so I highly doubt the sale of this now highest graded copy will bring prices down for the other copies below it. My bet is that any collector holding onto HG copies of either of these two books here or any other HTF HG GA book that very seldom ever comes to market will be waiting with great anticiaption to see where the Promise Collection copy of there book finishes up at, knowing full well that you need to have actual sales activity and pricing action on a book in order to have increasing values going forward.

Well, looks like this gorgeous and absolutely impossibly HTF in grade copy of Suspense Comics 8 did score into the 9's at a NM- 9.2. Let's just hope the gang at CCS kept all of their chips in place and didn't cut any corners here in their rush to get it through CCS and CGC.

Okay, no need to thank me, but fixed that for you anyways, so that it's now a much more accurate statement and reflection of what's to come.

Well, since @Timely was alluding to collectors who owned highest graded copies in their personal collections, I was definitely referring to long time collectors who most likely already own some of these books (albeit in slight lower graded condition) within their collection. I was also referring to these same long time collectors being rational and eventually reaching a point where they do decide to sell them in the future, as opposed to being buried with them in their graves.

The only reason I started the thread was to celebrate this amazing collection. Unfortunately, it went a different direction than I expected. Ah well, live and learn... Well, definitely sad to say, but as time has shown us over and over again, that's just nothing more than the usual divert and distract MO for the CGC acolytes and juice drinkers to follow once they see hints of anything that might seem even slightly disparaging to Matt and to CGC. I guess they didn't care for my post near the bottom of page 69 where I was comparing the positive ambiance on the boards here when the Jon Berk Collection thread was taking place as compared to the slightly less positive ambiance that seems to have settled in on Moondog's Promise Collection thread in this go round here. I guess I really shouldn't have linked it back to previous comments whereby the CGC supporters who always think CGC can do absolutely no wrong actually thought it made perfect business sense for CGC to have UNDERGRADED the books from the Jon Berk collection, and was seemingly leaning the other way for this Promise Collection here: I guess they also didn't care for my comment that the Promise Collection might have received some discounted pricing or preferred scheduling (which BTW I have absolutely zero problems with) that regular submittors do not receive. After all, is this not just normal and standard business practice for a large volume customer or special collections like a historic collection of this size and quality to have received. Especially since any other business out there would also offer additional benefits or incentives to a customer like this OO's family which they would fully deserve to have received in this particular situation here. I guess the Mods didn't find my posts to be that offensive since they were not a part of the ones that ended up being deleted in the end.