NewWorldOrder

On 2/20/2024 at 7:42 AM, BrashL said:

This is all well and good but completely dodges the main point. If you buy a book that was graded in 2022 and doesn't it appear to match the grade, unless it is on the infamous list of 350, your only recourse is what you set out above. Now we know for certain there are books in the wild beyond the 350 that were swapped out of their cases by Zanello and apparently a significant population of comics that were grossly misgraded (which is it's own scandal but I'll leave that to the QC thread). In the latter case, we can argue about what recourse should be to the buyer of that comic, but in the former I hope we can all agree the buyer had been defrauded and should be compensated by CGC in the same way the owners of the 350 are supposed to be. The issue is that CGC has stated explicitly that they will be treated the same and will not disclose if they even have a way of distinguishing the two. 

Bottom line: CGC has admitted Zanello swapped books and sold them directly without reholder. Comicwiz has reliably traced this practice to at least 2018. CGC has stated unequivocally that the defrauded buyers of those books will not be compensated. Those facts are indisputable. It's now a small leap of faith to believe the swaps go back much further as others on this board have pointed out he probably didn't start with expensive books like ASM 300. Another small inference means it is very likely there are 1000's of swapped books from this one bad actor, and likely more than just this one individual pulling the scam. These books are most likely tainted forever and will remain in the population with the grade assigned unless they are cracked out. The likelihood of getting a refund as a buyer of these books from anyone is very low as they aren't on any list, we have no defined way of identifying them on sight, and the books have probably changed hands a number of times. 

So now you say: "Buy the book, not the grade", "Do your homework", "Buy From reputable dealers". Which funnily enough is exactly how you should buy raw. The only difference is I can open up a raw book and negotiate condition, not so with CGC. Also the point about CGC is better for Novices; presumably you mean people who won't do any of those things, so I fail to see how they are any safer for them either. 

CGC has a huge problem on their hands and they know it. See CEO's letter, see lawsuits, see pricing changes. They aren't trying to hand wave this all away so I'm not sure why you are. New cases will be released when they burn through their existing inventory and will essentially create a new census for those in the know. Assuming those cases are actually at least Tamper Evident, then we can finally say that buying CGC slabs is the safer choice. A lot of us will be waiting on the sidelines until then.

Rant over. 

You can absolutely negotiate a price of CGC slab price at any show in the history of comic book conventions since 1999.

I can't think of anytime I didn't actually.

I didn't dodge anything you asked a question about the Teen Titans #44 from that video book and I answered.   I don't know what to tell you anymore.  Yes from what I posted that is probably your only recourse.  I didnt make the rules I am just telling how it works, so if you dont like it you have the option someplace else, stop collecting, or just buy raw.

BrashL say below:

"Another small inference means it is very likely there are 1000's of swapped books from this one bad actor, and likely more than just this one individual pulling the scam. These books are most likely tainted forever and will remain in the population with the grade assigned unless they are cracked out. The likelihood of getting a refund as a buyer of these books from anyone is very low as they aren't on any list, we have no defined way of identifying them on sight, and the books have probably changed hands a number of times. "

Where are the facts to back this up?  It just the same hyperbolic speculation over and over again. 

It sounds like you will be sitting on the sidelines for many years with your current stance on everything so not sure why you bother to keep posting. 

On 2/19/2024 at 5:24 PM, sledgehammer said:

Bad assumption, and he does say something contrary to that.

Otherwise, ....wait, not a CGC mis grade either.

Dammit, I thought you at least had the last one.

I tell you what, watch the video until he starts talking about the Vampirella 9.8.

Then, say to yourself, in this submission of 23 books, what are the odds that two of the books that were graded 9.8, had three different individual lines of grader notes, regarding damage to the book.

And one of them looks like a very fine minus.

 

On 2/19/2024 at 5:31 PM, BrashL said:

That’s a pretty big leap I think. An 8.0 labeled as a 9.8 is at least as likely to be a case swap. We know from the court filing and comicwiz’s with that there are plenty of the latter. 

Just easier to quote you both. 

I mean until it is known whether the original submitter did in fact receive the same book then this all just speculation. The defects on the book would make it pretty clear as well.

I think there is more information that needs to be known.  Could you say maybe it was switched out by that employee? Maybe, I am sure CGC would look into since it the book was graded in 2022 while that employee was working for them. 

The real questions would be who ever submitted it raw.  Did they get the same book back they originally submitted? Why did the original submitter sell it like that and not sent it back to CGC? How did the guy who sold it to Bryce not see it as well when he bought it?  Because if they got the same book back that was originally submitted then it's could simply be a mis-grade (by mis-grade I mean the grader probably selected the wrong grade by accident on the computer screen). I assume that happens.  Also bad on the original submitter if they did not send it back to CGC and sold it to Bryce's customer that for whatever reason also lacked the basic "buy the book not the grade" and to be honest blind as bat.  Now the rebuttal is why didnt QC catch it, valid 110%. 

I think the problem now is everyone is quick to jump the gun without asking more questions.  Over the years most seasoned people here have seen situations happen and it's more an oversight than criminal.  Case in point me just last month.  I submitted a Daredevil #168, it came back a CGC 9.6.  I knew that was way too high, sure enough I got the book back and it was a VF+ book sitting in a 9.6 holder.  I assumed it was a CGC grading mistake because I got back the SAME BOOK I submitted originally, and it was higher then what I graded it at.  So I sent it back via ME, they re-graded it correctly and I have it back now as the correct grade of CGC 8.5.  No idea if the grader just had slip of a keystroke/mouse click, or just for whatever reason graded it wrong that day, but it sure wasn't anything criminal about it, but rather a mistake by the grader and QC not catching it.

So unless CGC is trying to make me more money because they like me it was just an internal mistake.

On 2/19/2024 at 4:36 PM, BrashL said:

It’s a few pages back, I don’t want to repost unless you can’t find it. 
 

He got a Teen titans Judas Contract issue that is marked as a 9.8 but more like an 8.0

Okay this one.  So assuming the customer said that was their book with the same defects as they send the book in as right?  I didnt hear anything on the contrary to that.  

Its a CGC mis-grade for sure. 

The customer can send in the book under ME and they will re-grade the book for FREE.

It will comeback 8.0/8.5 to fix the mistake and the book will be in a corrected CGC 8.0 or 8.5 holder.

On 2/19/2024 at 4:36 PM, BrashL said:

It’s a few pages back, I don’t want to repost unless you can’t find it. 

I cant find it, please PM me the link?

On 2/19/2024 at 4:29 PM, BrashL said:

@CGC Mike Can you confirm this? Your last statement implied that only books on the list of 350 could be inspected and reimbursed. If we find a book outside that list that is not what it says on the label will CGC reimburse us?  I believe Bry’s Comics just posted an example on his YouTube channel. Can he reach out and be made whole?

what was Bry's situation?

Can you post the link.

On 2/19/2024 at 2:42 PM, sledgehammer said:

you sold me.

can you share a link, to your most recent listings?

Again my listing or his?   Everyone know about that guy that sells raw books shady on eBay based out of Montrose, California

I do not understand what you mean here.

On 2/19/2024 at 4:23 PM, sledgehammer said:

I would love to see, what a true auction for a CGC 9.4, blue label, Incredible Hulk 181, would go for.

Right now.

there's an auction for one going on, on comic link. Just keep in mind that I said true.

What did you say was true?

On 2/19/2024 at 3:54 PM, shadroch said:

No, they aren't. They can inspect the book and return it if the MVS is missing. If I bought 100 or a thousand CGC books, there is still a chance it is missing.  

If you sell me a CGC 181, and I sell it to someone who pops it two years from now, and it's incomplete, would you refund me my purchase price two years from now? Therefore, I stand behind my sales and can't sell a product that might come back and bite my azz years from now. 

CGC was always about trusting that the people involved were honest and competent.   If you think that is still true, keep using  them.   I did okay before CGC came along and will make some adjustments and be fine. 

Well yeah man there is always chance.  There are def restored books sitting in blue labels, mistakes can happen.  I mean this is 2003 stuff everyone has have talked about to death on the CGC boards about. I already answered the MVS missing in a slab a couple posts above so no need to type it again if CGC finds it missing from a tamper free case graded in any year ever or any major mistake.

That is a loaded question.  Short answer NO.  Why would anyone trust someone that says its missing without any proof?  How would we both know that buyer isnt giving us the switch out and trying to commit fraud against us?

So you are telling me and the boards if we each had 100K.

nWo buys 100K worth of CGC Blue Label Hulk #181's on eBay from various sellers- cracks them all out for grading resubmission's

shadroch buys 100K worth of "raw" Hulk #181's on eBay from various sellers- submits then Raw to CGC for grading

That you (Shadroch) will have LESS RISK than me for holding onto the value of each of our 100K? Come on now.  

I mean you have to obviously do what you think is best of course.  Since the average seller on most selling platforms can't grade I think you know my safe bet answer.

On 2/19/2024 at 3:45 PM, newshane said:

Great job in answering exactly 0% of my questions. 

I am assuming then you did a bad job in not reading my post correctly.

I literally told you exactly the basic difference between subjective and objective grading.

Instead of being passive aggressive why don't you ask me what you disagree with.

On 2/19/2024 at 3:32 PM, onlyweaknesskryptonite said:

We are both assuming here.

As anyone who has been paid for this type of situation CGC would make them sign an NDA for that compensation. 

Those that haven't , usually post craziness here and no one believes them. 

Either way I guess we will never really know.

I just know for my  CGC is not the safer bet right now with what they have shown over the last couple years.  

Between them and the other grading company or buying CGC vs buying raw?

I am not assuming though, I know the answers

Over the years I have def had my share of "are you kidding" me situations from CGC.  Anyone who submits regularly to CGC will always have a some problems over the many years. I just dont come here to post and rant/rave about it.  After I scream and throw the slab against the wall I just email them and work it out.  So far I have been taken care of every single time, never left holding the bag.   I just take my credit and move on with my life.  However, of course I understand for many a personal book mishap is emotionally more draining even when you are made whole versus books that are just resell submissions. 

On 2/19/2024 at 3:19 PM, onlyweaknesskryptonite said:

That is my point. They charge you to review.  If it was missing the MVS they then call you (if you are lucky ) and give the option of grade as is or send back as is. Either way you are out not only grade fees , but also the book that you thought you had purchased based on the grading they originally provided.  

Again in this scenario the CGC book is not safer.

Also to make it clear I am not going to be buying either. 

If I send them a HULK #181 from an tamper free case that was graded in 2010 yes they would absolutely cover you if the MVS stamp was missing or a page missing upon review.   Major mistakes by them will always be fixed.  That 2 week window for books just back from CGC is to cut down on the people for just breaks in cases, and cut down on the newton rings OCDer's.  If CGC see's a book on eBay that was slabbed upside down in the year 2005 they would absolutely take that book back to fix it for free. 

On 2/8/2024 at 1:04 PM, The humble Watcher lurking said:

He might not have the greatest art but his podcast Robservations is the best about comic books. If we dig deep Todd McFarlane is much bigger mercenary than him with Neil Gaiman. I hope Rob's health problems improve. He did create Deadpool and Cable. I give him some slack. 

 

Absolutely

Like him or not his views about the newer generations of artists was spot on, and why the torched has not been passed since the 1990's.

On 2/19/2024 at 2:54 PM, onlyweaknesskryptonite said:

Maybe.  At least if there was an issue with ebay you have several ways of getting your money back. 

Unless that 181 is on the list , according to them you are SOL.

I am sure if you call then up and said you were nervous the MVS was not in there they would review it for you in light of everything that has happened.  Maybe not for FREE, but they would.  I mean isnt flying after a commercial crash the safest time to fly? Just a guess but right now is probably a good time to submit  

On 2/19/2024 at 2:35 PM, sledgehammer said:

"CGC. We are still a lot safer than buying a raw copy of Hulk 181 from eBay, listed as near mint."

 

Your joke aside that is a true statement.

Greggy we talked about this @greggy

Confused is not the Like button  

On 2/19/2024 at 2:42 PM, sledgehammer said:

you sold me.

can you share a link, to your most recent listings?

his most recent listing?

On 2/19/2024 at 2:37 PM, shadroch said:

If I buy a raw 181  on ebay and it is missing the MVS, I have zero fear of losing my money.  If I buy a CGC 181, there is a greater than zero chance it is missing the MVS. 

 

Let's say Mrs. Schroder buys a CGC comic off ebay.  The book has a blue label which indicates the MVS is still intact. But is it? do we know for certain?  We don't know until we open the slab. Until then, the comic might have it or might not have it. 

Schroders comic exists in one of two states, and until it is opened, one can not know. 

Here is what I know-  Without examining the book, I can no longer be certain the MVS is there, and I don't feel comfortable selling a book I can't vouch for, so I can't in good conscious sell a product I don't have faith in.  As I'd planned on supplementing my retirement income selling slabs on MCS, this has been more than an inconvenience.   For now, I'm buying and selling raw books.

I mean sure, I mean one could say how do I know all the pages of my AF 15 are really there? Does the Cover match the interior pages? Are the Pages really White Pages? etc etc

Your point is the trust has been broken in your eyes, I get that.  I am saying the vast majority of Hulk #181's in Universal labels are just that perfectly fine.  I cracked out probably 8 in my lifetime.  All the MVS were there.   A person is running more of risk buying a "raw" Hulk #181 than buying one already graded on eBay.

On 2/19/2024 at 2:17 PM, BrashL said:

Depends how you define the risk. If you mean the risk of it missing the MVS for example then yes, CGC cased books are much riskier because they are unverifiable. 

There is well know seller on eBay (based out of Montrose, California) that boardies have steered clear of for many years.  He always used to sell Hulk #181's raw saying "High Grade" or "Near Mint," but were clearly a sneaky looking VF+ or VF/NM.  Now can a good amount of people see through that I hope so, but a good amount of people who do not know how to grade will buy the book and be none the wiser.  Especially if they do not send in the book for grading and just stick in the box to lay raw for years.   Much bigger risk in all aspects of buying raw vs already graded for most casual/novice buyers even with the current scam.

On 2/5/2024 at 3:14 PM, newshane said:

I would say visually matching the tone of a page to that of a printed standard is pretty darn subjective. 

Maybe I'm missing something? Is there a scientific tool available to assist? What, exactly, is the "black or white" objective process that should be used to determine page quality? 

If a grader believes that the tone of the paper is identical to the standard, then that is an OPINION, is it not? How can we prove them right or wrong? 

I also find your use of the word "generally" quite interesting. You said, "Grading generally is not subjective." Well, is it subjective or not? What did you mean by "generally?" 

 

 

Professional grading generally means you should be in the ballpark or strike zone as Steve Borock has said many times over the years and I think his logic is spot on. If you grade a book 6.0 and its comes back 6.0/6.5 that is where the slight subjectivity comes into play.  Now if you graded a book NM+ (9.6) and it comes back NM- (9.2) that is not subjective.  You missed something more than likely.

If you want to prove them wrong you can submit the book for review or open up your own grading company and set the new standard.

Also just because the grader/dealer/or seller was wrong on that certain day doesnt mean the standards changed.  They just had a bad day at the office possibly.

On 2/15/2024 at 8:28 AM, MAR1979 said:

Sort of eliminates all need for ANY Grading Service.

  

Total agreement! In 2024 buying CGC slabbed comic/magazine carries significantly greater risk than purchasing raw.  To expand on that the same too applies to Trading Cards , Video Games and VHS Tapes (absurd to begin with).

Are saying buying a Hulk #181 on eBay "raw" listed by the seller as NM is less risky now than buying a already graded CGC 9.4 listed at auction going forward?

All I know is White Pages should always get more points for the same grade than all lower page quality destinations such as OWW or CR-OW.  The market pays you more so why shouldn't the FREE registry.

It's not rocket science to understand why.

If you feel your book was given the wrong page destination or grade you can always resubmit or ask for a review, don't let it ruin your life. 

On 1/26/2024 at 2:50 PM, bc said:

Signed books are a binary - the book is either signed or its not.

Page quality is entirely subjective.

-bc

No, that grader or collector just made mistake in their evaluation.

Grading generally is not subjective.  Not saying anyone in particular, but usually people who cant grade say "grading is subjective."

On 1/29/2024 at 9:02 PM, maz25 said:

nWo ftw - new ,new, new, new world order, new world order

best entrance music ever

On 1/24/2024 at 4:52 PM, Stefan_W said:

My question is whether books currently in the system but not charged (like a pre-screen I have which is SFG) will have the new or old pricing. 

My latest submission was actually delivered today.  I am assuming it goes by the Invoice submission date.

So I assume this box is old pricing.  Not a big deal since I submit once per month.  I am very happy about these changes of course going forward!

On 1/23/2024 at 2:33 PM, THE_BEYONDER said:

Was just curious if you got more that $1820

Nope.  The bigger one was the #8 SS signed.  Both went well under @RockMyAmadeus sale, but his was a pretty double signed which I do not think you see that often.