NewWorldOrder

On 1/23/2024 at 2:31 PM, THE_BEYONDER said:

What did you get for it?

I never kiss and tell

Or you can just check gpa because I forget.

On 1/23/2024 at 11:33 AM, RockMyAmadeus said:

Still hasn't arrived, but the post office magically found the box yesterday. Funny how that happens. Left notice for the buyer; hopefully they pick it up.

Glad it was found and basically delivered.  I literally just sold basically the same Sandman #1 CGC 9.8 SS as well.

Years ago USPS lost registered mail, so I almost now feel safer when I send items media mail and retail ground.   

On 1/23/2024 at 10:58 AM, BrashL said:

What I'm saying is that we disagree on what I consider to be the fundamental issue so talking around it won't help. As far as negativity, I think we should let CGC know we when we aren't happy, that's how things get changed. 

Which is totally fine, my point was merely that just because you do not like my opinion I am not some CGC shill  

Trust me when I say many dealers in this hobby have helped guide CGC to positive changes over the years that many here on the boards do not know about. I have seen it first hand many times, but of course one of the ways for you to voice that opinion is here so I totally get that.  For me I just don't feel the need to constantly come on here and post all my thoughts for public viewing, that's all.  I just talk to them in person or directly in some form.

I remember years ago getting a tampered ASM #129 (first generation old label) CGC 9.4 that was switched out.  It was a CGC 9.0 inner-well in a CGC 9.4 holder.  Some people really figured out a way to switch those out, and the way they did was way easier than what anyone thinks about this current scam is.  So that's why I said earlier this 3rd generation case is the best they have so far, and of course new improvements would be a great idea in light of this current situation.  I just see when people want a new case in 24 hours or a week they are being unrealistic.

People from CGC are 110% reading all these posts so they are listening. 

Hope we have found some common ground.

On 1/23/2024 at 10:35 AM, comicwiz said:

When we are talking about FMV, we are talking about a value of something. As I've explained FMV is deficient in reconciling the past vs today or current value. Replacement value is the only method to arrive at a resolution because it incorporates factors of depreciation and market fluctuations. 

When you talk about "replacement" you're assuming someone is going to be content just getting that book accurately graded. You haven't thought far along enough to consider that what they might want is the money they paid for that book,knowing it was a tamper-proof holder,and that the book inside was what was being sold to them. 

You are assuming no one is going to want their money, their original purchase price. Not FMV. 

That's where you're assessment of this mess is deficient.

Yes I understand the difference and I was merely asking if in general you were just talking about the common books vs rare books.  (ASM 300's vs the MJ insert newsstands)

I understand now you are saying for everything that CGC determined was tampered with.  Got it.

However, I think trying to get replacement cost of what they actually paid is going to be be a tough hill to climb.  If the submitter wants a cash payout is what I think will happen for the more common books will just be market current values.  I do think when it comes to the rare books thats where I can see this getting very tricky.

On 1/23/2024 at 10:12 AM, comicwiz said:

This is why I mention FMV is not equipped to handle situations such as this incident. By its very definition, it requires both buyer/seller to know all relevent facts, have a reasonable knowledge of what they are purchasing, and are entering into the transaction or trade free from pressure. The fact each buyer purchased a "tampered" comic known to have had it's holder tampered with at a later time, means it is deficient in retroactively assisting with an assessment of adequate compensation at the time the discovery of tampering occurred. 

As most already know (and I've certainly said this enough in past posts) replacement value is the most capable of handling some of the more complex issues this situation presents. Part of it is the messy situation of compensating victims who bought in a peak market, and are now facing the prospect of being offered current values for that book,which have in many instances, dropped significantly from 2020 and 2021 prices.

In a real world scenario outside of this scandal, the complexities associated to exploting the holder, and rendering the property to be of even less value than the tampered holder/label would indicate, would be akin to an extreme weather event like the flooding which occurred some years back due to lake level mismanagement. In that situation, coastal home owners who had never experienced a flood situation in their lives were being denied coverage by their insurers, who had found a way to wiggle themselves out of compensation,citing that homeowners now needed to carry a seperate water damage rider. What happened here is homeowners were misinformed that this unexplained flooding event was caused by "climate change" when in fact, it had nothing to do with climate change, and everything to do with the IJC's decisions to raise water levels for shipping. hydroelectric generation, and recreational boating.

This prompted the State of New York to go after the IJC for $1 Billion relating to the misnamanagement of lake-levels causing flooding damage that reached coastal communities in NY. Had this been more well known,what should have occurred as soon as this event took place is for all homeowners who had been denied coverage to demand from their insurance company to cover their damages, and for the insurance industry to devise a subrogation plan to recover damages from the IJC. 

It may seem a crude example to bring up, but I see a lot of parallels from the steps currently being taken. Using the "fair" in FMV is a euphamism for taking a financial hit in the chin, not because it's an accurate way to arrive at a compensation a situation of this type deserves. For the above reasons, as well as all the other info I've shared thus far, I think the only chance for appropriate redress is to get the Feds involved. It would be a shame if customers who participate in the options offered by The CGC Guarantee find themselves excluded from participating in alternative remedies, because as in the instance of the floods incorrectly being blamed on climate change as a way out for insurers to not only snake their way out of paying out claims (not to mention cross-selling "water" coverages as needing to be seperate rider - and yes, I'm aware that as I write this, it is too eerily reminiscent of the 9.9 prescreen pitch during the interview), those impacted are going by the information being provided to them by the grader whose interest is to handle this matter privately. 

 

Assuming you are talking about the harder to replace comics right?  Because most of the common books are easily to be replaced in grade and given to the customer to be made whole again, or the money give is enough to replace them through current market values.

I am assuming you are talking about the Mark Jeweler's Newsstands that can not be easily found right?

On 1/23/2024 at 6:26 AM, BrashL said:

LOL, OK I think we're done here then. Just remember, it's OK to criticize a company you like. Companies don't have feelings. 

Because you dont agree with something I said "we are done." 

I am assuming then you skim read as per most here.  I said many times in this thread weeks ago this was simple problem that CGC could have stopped if they followed basic protocols in terms of the reholdering process.  I mean what else is there to say past that?

I am just not going to post over and over the same non-sense as many here have and be super negative on every post.  Any reasonable person would take my last post in response to you as a reasonable response and an opinion. The fact you can't respond in kind with a thought out rebuttal is on you.

On 1/23/2024 at 8:39 AM, comicjel said:

If I were advising CGC, I would improve the label itself to include a high resolution scan of the ungraded book (right after being graded, but before slabbing) - maybe front of book on front of label, and back of book on back of label.

I know they include scans now in the cert verify, and those are good!, but I think having the scan on the label (right above the actual book) would be easy to compare when buying online (or in person).

Not a be all end all cure for all scams, just an added feature that would make this type of scam harder to pull off.

My only rebuttal to that is I as a submitter really dont want another person handling my books before grading.  More chances of damage before the grader even touches the book.

On 1/23/2024 at 5:21 AM, wiparker824 said:

I’m not comparing to Covid prices, that’s why I presented the 90 day averages and the last sale price. If I was comparing to Covid prices these would be insanely low since these books were hitting $5,800 in the Covid peak. But again I wasn’t, and there’s no point in doing that so I’m not sure why you’re bringing that up. 

And also $2100 is 20-30% lower than the 90 day average and the last sale. Not sure why it needs to be an additional 20-30% lower than that but okay. I’m guessing if the next one hits that you’ll move the goalposts again. 

By you not there do you mean you were not in the Hobby?

Why?  Because the book is common and fairly easy to find in high grade.

I am saying if I waken up from a 2019 coma I would been very happy to get 2k for such a common book.

The books downward trend has more to do with other factors than the case tampering which is what you were deciding if that was the case (no pun intended)

On 1/22/2024 at 3:50 PM, NewWorldOrder said:

I have to admit I only come here to see when my books will be graded each month by using @greggy as my go to barometer.

“The power of @greggy compels you”

“The power of @greggy compels you”

“The power of @greggy compels you”

“The power of @greggy compels you”

On 1/22/2024 at 7:22 PM, BrashL said:

How about answer one of my questions for once. Do you agree the slab is substandard and no longer best in the industry?  Let’s start there. 

Okay 

I think this version of the CGC case is the best version they have come out with so far of the 3 generations.  Is it substandard? No.

Can it be improved upon?  Of course.

All companies are supposed to be constantly striving for ever evolving ways to innovate a better experience or product for the customer.

Best in the Industry?  Yes, I personally feel CGC's case is the best in the industry.  Now some will disagree, and that's fine.  However I think most of the hobby would vote CGC over Voldemort if you take a poll. 

I do not think CGC needs a brand new case from scratch.  Some people here think it can done like magic, and dont understand a new case process from scratch would take years to complete and implement.  Now would a slight modification be a good idea? Sure.  Some boardies have posted some interesting ideas.  Just keep in mind that it would probably lead to a price increase, and then you would have some of the people who want a case change of some kind then complain about the new pricing     So it's a balancing act.

On 1/22/2024 at 6:07 PM, wiparker824 said:

 

Kind of low for these books even if you add in CL’s 3% buyer premium. 

90 day GPA is $2688 for direct (8 sales), with the last sale being on HA 1/16 for $2760

90 day GPA is $2524 (only 2 sales) for newsstand with the last sale being on HA on 1/16 for $2640

Even so 4287881001 was the newsstand cert that isn’t on the list but is on the same submission as 4287881003 which is on the list and that’s the book that went for $200 more than the direct tonight. So I don’t know. 

Unless they changed their policy in the last month or so I assumed you can still save on CL’s 3% buyer premium if you pay by check.

The fact this book even sells for $1k still amazes me in any CGC grade.

Historically over a long period of time all the ASM keys keep going up even the common ones from 1980 to now.  Everyone likes to compare prices to COVID, but that isnt what most should look at over the long haul.  Trends over 5+ years or more is better.  Of course I am assuming you point is the reholder scam might be effecting these prices, but I just think its just a common book going for what t should be going for in 2024.  IMO if the reholder scam really hurt this book the prices I feel auction final sales would be 20-30% lower than that.

On 1/22/2024 at 5:46 PM, bc said:

You don't need AI for anything like this.

-bc

I want Terminator graders.

If a book fails a pre-screen it is destroyed on the spot.  That will cut down on pre-screen submissions.

On 1/22/2024 at 5:42 PM, bc said:

Yes.

It's a way to tie in several of the value-added service in the CGC eco-system.

Makes the customer feel like they are getting more than they are paying for.

-bc

I def think in the near future certain aspects of AI programs will help with things like that.

On 1/22/2024 at 5:25 PM, bc said:

All good man 

And to take it one step further, ALL submissions should be added to the submitter account as a Custom Registry set. 

The submitter can move them to any other Competitive of personal Custom Set anytime they want or they can leave them there.

That would then add another point in the chain of custody cycle and add a value-added service to differentiate from the competitors.

-bc 

Oh so you mean just the submitter can see?  aka not public right?

On 1/22/2024 at 5:16 PM, bc said:

From a capital cost, it's pennies per unit.

From an operational cost, it's seconds of labor.

From a brand integrity perspective, it's priceless.

One way to "leapfrog" the competition.

-bc

Then that's not a bad idea then if the cost would be basically be what you said. 

I cant agrue with that.

On 1/22/2024 at 5:06 PM, bc said:

Putting an image anywhere on the label (front/back) does nothing if the outer case (and therefore the label) can be compromised with limited tamper evidence.

Why do you think they started putting hardware-based chips on all credit & debit cards? Why do you have to type in a secret code that your bank text messages on your personal smartphone in order to login? It's all a way to increase authentication via a secondary criteria  and reduce fraud (which reduces liabilities and operating costs and preserves the brand's reputation).

CGC needs to add an additional metric to authenticate the chain of custody. Hence my suggestions about embedding a microchip into the seal of the inner well.

-bc 

That would all depend on the cost basis. 

Let's face it 50% and its probably more of the books submitted are not even worth case cost to begin with.  So most are not even worth being tampered with by the criminals.

Maybe with higher tier books only?

On 1/22/2024 at 4:57 PM, MAR1979 said:

Well folks it had to happen eventually, the first post NewWorldOrder post in this thread I agree with!   Lack of true competition is never a good thing!

Curious what is the major viewpoint I have said that you do disagree with me on?

Because it depends on what day I am posting.  Today I am in a serious mood, and most days on the boards its vodka on the rocks.

On 1/22/2024 at 4:48 PM, comicjel said:

Add a scan of the ungraded book to the label - not really a new holder, but a change that will make purchasing such graded books safer and easier to verify - will have a good deterrent factor as well. 

Interesting

So do you mean like on label it self?  or do you mean available to see online once you put in the cert#?

On 1/22/2024 at 4:21 PM, Ares said:

Kinda Cheeky but it was expected

Where does it say that if a dealer, collector, and re-sellers use them that they will be rewarded with the highest market value in the hobby?

Still wanting on that...

On 1/22/2024 at 4:13 PM, BrashL said:

No, I don't think I ever said that but it's another great straw man for you to line up and knock down.

I don't know why I even bother with you, it's very clear that your livelihood is inextricably linked with CGC's reputation, to the point that if they ran one of your submissions through a  paper shredder Banksy style you'd praise them for the uniform size of the strips. The rest of us can admit that the holder is substandard and needs to be replaced.

Many millions of dollars are linked to CGC's business.  I am no different than the many others in the hobby.

I asked you a question how is that a straw man argument to which you brought up?    I will ask again.

When you say "CGC Needs a New Holder."

Do you mean like from scratch or a slight modification?

Cause if you mean a brand new holder then that can not happen over night.  1-2 years or longer, slight modification is possible sooner.

So I am asking you and others what do want them to do before then just stop grading comics in regards to their current case?

They are obviously reading all posts here so what do you think is the best solution to start tomorrow morning.

@BrashL

When you say "CGC Needs a New Holder."

Do you mean like from scratch or a slight modification?

Correct me if I am wrong, but didn't you also say CGC should stop all grading till then and have a complete recall of all previous holders?

On 1/22/2024 at 7:13 AM, SpineTic said:

No QC problem,  just the ridiculousness of the things being graded.

Most books graded by CGC seem ridiculousness because the customer is not well versed in value.

On 1/22/2024 at 3:32 PM, scooter99 said:

What would make perfect sense would be for CGC to buy Voldermart.  Not only reduce whatever competition they may be, but for the better case technology. 

haha see my above post for that exact comparison.   WWE  and WCW

On 1/22/2024 at 3:21 PM, BrashL said:

LOL, OK I’ll let them know to close up shop.  They sell at a 10-15% discount if any, that’s not a hard gap to close. If CGC doesn’t change anything after this (including a new case) that gap can close very quickly. We’ll see.  

Yes they are failures because they failed time and time again to make any real strides to become a legitimate threat when CGC has allowed them to come in.  CGC is WWE and they are WCW.  Eventually WCW went under, and bought by WWE.  Heck even WCW put up a valiant fight.  So that Voldey has been useless.  I would love a true comic grading company WAR!  Like we did with the Monday Night Wars of the late 90's.  Consumer wins when that happens!

No major dealer uses them to sell big books on a consistent basis.

Their verified signature program has proven to not-trustworthy.

That 10-20% gap has been that way since they opened up shop so let me know when they close that gap and I will gladly start submitting to them as well.

Everyone can agree competition is good thing, I am just waiting for a real company to actually show up to challenge them. So far nothing in 24 years.