sfcityduck

Here's my question: In the lower grades do the cover centric books take a comparative hit as opposed to non-cover centric books? I mean, if the point of the book is the cover, then wouldn't it take a comparatively bigger hit in low grades than a book where the point is not the cover? What's the point of a coverless Suspense 3? What's better, a coverless D 33 or D 31? Seems like the same logic might hold for books in lower grades with major cover flaws.

Never thought of it this way. The market value of all extant Incredible Hulk 181s also could exceed all extant Action 1s. But, so what? The market value of all Toyota Prius cars likely exceeds the market value of all Tesla Model 3s. But I'd rather drive a Tesla than a Prius and own an Action 1 than a Hulk 181.

Jay Garrick is on TV. The kids know who GA Flash and SA Flash are because of TV. They don't necessarily understand what has been happening in the comics with Flash the past 30 years.

As I said, it is a bad mistake to make factual misrepresentations that are disproven by the prior posts. In this case, your assertion that I provided comparisons of sales from "imcomparable grades" is B.S. because I provided one comparison of 9.2 to 9.2 and one comparison of a 6.5 CA 1 to a 5.5 (lower) Bat 1. Yes those 9.2 sales were 24 months apart, but when talking high grade sales, that is no so long a passage of time to render the comparison meaningless, especially when the sale two years later was for significantly more $200K+ and 65% over the prior sale. Yes, those 9.2 sales were a few years back, but few high grade comics of these keys exist, and no books of comparable grade have been sold since. So its the most recent high grade comparable sale. The 6.5 to 5.5. comparison was even more incredible at a 120% premium (over $100K more) for the book two grades worse only 24 months later. And that 5.5 sale is not stale. You are really undermining your argument, which includes some valid points, with the dishonesty and misrepresentations about what others are arguing. It is trollish.

Now you are being dishonest. I and Gothamkid presented solely publicly available information of mid to high grade transactions which establish the greater value of Bat 1. All you offered were results from two auction houses, not dozens of venues, including an incomplete transaction, relating solely to low grade copies. So your assertion that the "publicly available info isn't consistent with the narrative" is B.S. Gator offered several nuances you seem to be missing. First, he offered information on the comparison of mid grade Bat 1 vs. CA 1 sales. He noted (1) " Mid grade blue bat 1 is about 20k ahead of cap 1 based on 4 sales I was involved in , in the past year" and (2) "I've sold 3 cap 1s in past 6 months." That's good data. Second, he explained why the low grade price samples are bad benchmarks. You clearly enjoy arguing, but it doesn't appear that you are convincing anyone. And you aren't going to convince anyone if you misrepresent posts, especially when the info is up thread and it is easy to demonstrate the misrepresentation.

First, your claim that "an amalgam of public sales from dozens of different venues is is always going to be more reliable than the accounts of a private dealer" ignores concerns regarding the quality of information you have presented. All you have presented are sales of very low grade comics, and rather than claiming those to be the product of an "amalgam of public sales from dozens of different venues" you have cited instead to only two auction houses. Gator explained to you why a comparison of low grade sales may not be indicative of mid to high grade pricing, which is what we have been focusing on, and you are ignoring that the information provided by myself, Gothamkid, and Gator actually represents a wider spectrum of information than you are considering -- both in terms of timespread (which helps to address the problem of bubbles) and selling venues. Second, your attack upon private transaction date, "regardless of who the dealer is," ignores that private venues may well be the majority of transactions in the marketplace. By ignoring RELIABLE dealer information, you are intentionally eliminating a vast market segment from your analysis. Logically, this ensures that your analysis can never be accurate. After all, we all know that the auction process inherently distorts pricing because of middle man fees (making prices appear higher than sellers will actually accept) and the potential for bid manipulation. Third, when you assert "if the public data from dozens of sources is inconsistent with what is being reported from a strictly private setting, that in itself is a red flag and why non-public sales are not helpful in discussions such as this" you are ignoring it might also be a "red flag" about auction results or GPA reporting. There is always the possibility that unreliable dealers might be inclined to report "good" prices achieved to GPA, but not lesser prices. I am more comfortable trusting a dealer like Gator than ones who don't have the same reputation. Ultimately, more information is better information, so it is pretty foolish to ignore information from a credible source like Gator.

I don't think your opinion will garner much agreement. It suffers from several major logical flaws.

The sales data I posted on this thread was public. Gothamkid too. Gator was kind enough to share some of his private sales. I'd think whether you want to listen to the information he is sharing would depend on whether you think he is credible. He is to me. So your comment about a "rando 'dealer'" seems absurd to me. No one here is trying to use "strictly private sales" information. What you have here is a mix of public and private, and the private is from a credible source.

What point are you trying to make between public auctions and private transactions?

Based on actual sales records, CA 1 is 7th on the top sales records for GA books: 1. Action 1 9.0 $3.2 million 2. D27 8.0 $1.075 million 3. Bat 1 9.2 $567K 4. Flash 1 9.6 $450K 5. Superman 1 4.5 $358K 6. MC 1 9.0 $350K 7. CA 1 9.2 $343K But, "my personal coolness factor evaluation" of GA comics would have the top 3 as follows: 1. Action 1 2. D 27 3. MC 1

To be fair, I think the page quality was better on the Bat 1. But, you're not going to get books of this scarcity with the same grade, page quality, and circumstances coming up for sale in every auction. All that can be said for sure is that a Bat 1 has sold for a much higher price (hundreds of thousands) than any CA 1, and recent seemingly comparable sales spaced two years apart appear to show an edge to Bat 1 even when the passage of time is factored in.

Feel free to provide the comps you think are relevant. I offered a comparison of 9.2 sales (which don't happen often) only two years apart that showed a the Bats 1 9.2 selling for 65% more than the CA 1, and a comparison of a 6.5 CA 1 sale to a 5.5 Bat 1 sale, at the same venue, two years apart which showed the Bat 1 selling for 120% more than the CA 1 despite being a lesser grade. Ignore that if you want, but I think it is instructive.

You misunderstand my comment. I pointed out that a Batman 1 has sold for $200K more than any copy of CA 1, as far as I know, and then stated: "Perhaps this is reflective that Batman 1 (Spring 1940) is more scarce than CA 1, but who knows the relative scarcity for sure?" In short, I am speculating about the relative scarcity of the two comics (both of which appear to be an entirely different tier of scarcity from the earlier GA books) as possibly explaining the prices (which I view as reflecting supply and demand). I don't view the CGC census as gospel on the relative scarcity of comics. I am far more inclined to trust the anecdotal knowledge of experienced dealers. I recognize that there are many raw copies out there sitting in collections. So I am just offering a potential alternative explanation (supply) to the explanation that "Batman 1 is more popular" (demand) to explain the price discrepancy between a CA 1 9.2 selling for $343,057.00 at ComicConnect on 2011/08/09 and a Batman 1 9.2 selling just two years later for $567,625.00 at Heritage on 2013/08/01. Another comparison: a CA 1 6.5 sold for $107,550.00 at Heritage on 2014/11/20. Two years later, a Batman 1 5.5 sold for $239,000.00 at Heritage on 2016/11/17.

Methinks you doth protest too much. Captain America's claim to fame is that he was carried over from Timely to Marvel as a matter of continuity early (like Submariner, but not Human Torch who was a new character). And he's had a bigger role in the Marvel universe than Subby, so he's viewed by Marvel fans as the most important Timely GA character (beating out Subby and HT). Consequently, there is an on-going battle between CA 1 and MC 1 for Timely price supremacy despite the fact that MC 1 is the more historically significant book for being the first Timely, introducing Subby and HT to newsstand readers, and creating the Marvel Universe. As far as I know, the top price paid for a CA 1 is $343K. For MC 1, it is $350K. But, it appears CA 1 has the edge right now grade for grade. Captain America is famous. But his claim to fame is not that he was some unique archetype of patriotic hero. He wasn't the first created, wasn't the first created in reaction to WWII, was not the first anti-Nazi hero/cover/story, and may not have been the most popular in the GA itself. He is just the most popular patriotic hero now. But Captain America is not close to being the most popular superhero today. He's way behind Wolverine, Spiderman, the X-Men as a group, and a number of others, including, I'd submit, Batman by a substantial margin. I believe the most paid for a Batman 1 is $567K. So even though Batman 1 may be only the fourth most important Batman book, it has the edge on CA 1. [Perhaps this is reflective that Batman 1 (Spring 1940) is more scarce than CA 1, but who knows the relative scarcity for sure?] [As an aside: Captain America's status as a patriotic superhero also may hurt the long term growth of CA 1. Guys like Ayman Hariri, whose spending as driven most of the big sales in recent years (spent $5.3 million on Action 1s alone), may not view the patriotic hero thing as a plus (and Trump may be doing is own damage). Hariri is certainly more of a DC guy than Marvel guy. So I'm not sure the sample that is driving your predictions is representative of the attitudes of actual big money comic buyers.] But, I do think that to comic buyers "firsts" do matter. First, anti-Nazi cover matters. First horror book matters. First anything seems to matter. First female superhero matters. First costumed non-powered superhero matters. Discounting that ignores far too much history of the hobby.

A lot of well argued opinions being tossed out on this thread. Thanks for starting the discussion Wayne-Tec.

Nah. My view is that the "Tiers" of GA comics should be based on price, rarity, import to comic history, pop culture import (which is where I put character appearances and important story developments), aesthetics (e.g., cool cover, great interior art, etc.), and there are probably some other factors worth considering like the identity of the original owner. There are plenty of comics, however, that tick "comic history" boxes. Pep 1 introduced a new kind of superhero, the patriotic superhero. AS 3 introduced the superhero team. Triumph 1 introduced the first female superhero. D38 introduced the first sidekick (I think). Wonder 1 commenced Superman imitation. There are many other milestones which are more than just introducing a new character, including the many non-superhero comic milestones like first anti-Nazi cover, first war comic, first SF comic, first horror comic, first romance comic, first crime comic, etc. And there are other distinguishing factors like comics that were the focus of Wertham in SOTI, comics that were published without the CCA approval, etc. The list is pretty long, and includes first comics by a publisher, first art by certain artists, etc. Collectors collect for a lot of reasons. Aesthetics considerations that motivate cover oriented collectors seem almost limitless, and include cover artist, GGA, sharks, Hitler covers, etc. So I think there are a lot of reasons that a comic can be be significant to a collector. But, for me, a Tier 1 book is primarily a rare combination of overwhelming price, rarity, import to comic history, and pop culture import. I see CA 1 as Tier 2 due because of comparative weakness to Action 1, D27, and Superman 1 when those factors are considered. It's firmly a top 10 book IMHO. It's just not Top 3. No slight on CA 1.

CA 1 is a great book. But, it is not the "1st app. of a superhero debuting in his own self-titled series." It is not even the first appearance of a Timely hero debuting in his own self-titled series. I believe that honor goes to Red Raven (Aug. 1940). I also think it is mistake to view CA 1 as containing a "real life connection to world history," but not Superman 1. Superman started out as a New Deal liberal crusader for social justice. In Superman 1, he stops a lynching, stops an unjust government death penalty execution, tackles a corrupt Senator, travels to South America to stop a war fomented by munitions manufacturers, and tackles unsafe conditions for mine workers! That is far far far more "real world" in the context of its times, and much more adult, than Captain America engaging in the fantasy of punching Hitler or battling the Red Skull. Finally, I also think it is a mistake to equate significant "comic history" with the "first appearance" of a popular character. Many many comics feature character first appearances. And, the most popular characters debuted after the GA. I believe that not all character first appearances are equal from a "comic history" perspective, which I think should be different than mere popularity. Action 1 trumps all because it debuts the first superhero, even though Superman is not the most popular superhero. CA 1 contains no "historical significance" other than introducing characters. It did not create a new character archetype (CA was a ripoff in concept, design and origin of the first patriotic superhero The Shield, making Pep 1 arguably the more historically significant book if you ignore character popularity). It IS a very cool book because it introduced the enduring characters of CA, Bucky and the Red Skull. But, that's it. Superman 1, in contrast, is "comic history" significant because it is the first book solely devoted to a single superhero and was a huge boost to the superhero genre. I don't think in assessing the "Tiers" of comics, that CA 1's "historical significance" outweighs Superman 1's. And we know its rarity and value does not. All we can say is that CA 1 debuted new characters and Superman 1 did not, but so did many comics and a fair number of those debuted much more popular characters than CA. I will concede though that the enduring pop culture impact of a character should factor into the Tiers and that is one reason why I view CA 1 as a Tier 2 book. But it should not be driving factor, which is why I view MC 1 as a Tier 2 book. Just some thoughts. Reasonable people will disagree.

I think movies have some influence, but you are overstating it. The new GA collectors also seem to care about comic history, that's why they are paying $3M for an Action 1. The players at the high level include a lot of guys who educate and get educated about the lore of the hobby. That's why Centaurs are still hot despite having zero pop culture significance. Under your analysis, the GA market should largely be in decline. Obviously, it is not. Comic strip reprint comics are a far different beast than Superman 1. Comparing the two just makes me think you aren't being serious. The MC 1 and CA 1 comparison is better, but I'm not convinced the story of that battle is over. In addition, the hot artist still matters a lot ... so long as it is a cover artist. That's why Suspense 3 and Fantastic 3 are zooming upward. That is why St. John romance comics are smoking hot. That's why the Gerber Journals changed the hobby. As an aside, I'm not sure, though, I ever remember a time since 1980 or so when X-Men 108 was more important than IH 181. It was far far easier for me to buy an X-Men 108 than an IH 181 back then. I'd have to re-check the OPG to see what it said, but my memory is that IH 181 was the hotter book.

Frankly, that doesn't seem to be a favorable comparison for Marvel. Setting aside analogies, there's no way that CA 1 ever overtakes Superman 1, IMHO, because the folks who pay big bucks for GA keys care far more about comic history, relative rareness, and other relevant factors supporting Superman 1 then they do about movies. If all that mattered to high stakes GA collectors was movies, then Suspense 3 and Fantastic 3 would not be selling for big bucks.

This one's beat up, but I like wall racks. You almost never seen them, which is in line with the supposed rarity of Classics racks: More tonight or tomorrow.

Moving on to Classics Illustrated. I'm not a Classics collector (have some), but I have to admit there are a lot of neat Classics related items for such collectors to collect. However, an old 1989 fanzine which I'll post from later, claims that Classics comic racks are extremely extremely rare. I'm really curious as to whether folks have seen many. I have seen them pop up from time to time, so I'm a little skeptical of the rarity claim (but I may be seeing multiple pictures of the same racks). In any event, this rack really impresses me. Only one like this I've ever seen:

it was sold at a North Carolina (U.S. state) auction. The picture is from the auction site. There were very few 5 cent comics in the U.S. as 10 cents was the standard golden age price. Really baffles me.

Just saw this, not mine. Sold by Hakes.

It's all a matter of opinion, but personally I think the very first comic devoted 100% to a superhero is of similar or greater historical import to the first comic published by Goodwin, the first appearance of Joker, and CA 1 (which isn't even the first patriotic hero). People like to downgrade Superman 1 as a reprint, but it includes some new material and the cover is a classic (and the back cover isn't bad either). So, for me personally, the gap from Action 1 and D 27 to Superman 1 is far smaller than the gap from Superman 1 to CA 1.

A quick digression back to Dell, this is that metal version of the wooden Dell 50s comic rack I mentioned up thread. This low quality picture is the only one I can now find of this rack. It's sheet metal with one sign: