jbud73

Any variants

Beautiful looking copy !!! Congrats +1 that's a nice book

on another note there have been a few 9.8s FS over the past year, I haven't checked the census in a while but curious how many are new to market and how many are recirculated copies. I still think this is a rare in HG book, but over time we shall see how rare as this is not under anyone's radar anymore.

Someone que up a few 'no prizes' as I've often said the amassed knowledge on the CGC boards really is a unparalleled lexicon and on display daily The market can decide that Avengers #71 is worth a million dollars - in fact, I highly encourage this - but it won't change reality. Although the book has been considered as such, I trust hands down Crimebuster on the Invaders. In fact, I still need a Giant-Size Invaders although I have a #71 so I must pick one. I am also not 100% sure I already have an Invaders #1 – too many things to remember! I reply on his behalf, since I am pretty much into the Defenders, say like I am crazy about them! Sub-Mariner #34-35 is not properly a pre-Defenders story, or it might be just that in part. The main story arc which can be considered a gathering of sorts is the one from which Thomas gets the idea for the series: Hulk #126 / Sub-Mariner #21 / Dr. Strange #183 – here we are introduced to the nether-demons Nameless Ones, because of which Barbara Norriss loses her mind (her and her husband Jack were dabbling with the demonic cult of the aforementioned) and it’s where Dr. Strange first meets with both Hulk and Namor. And all of this of course happens before Sub-Mariner #34-35. It‘s not by chance that Englehart, when starts the series in Defenders #1 ideally picks up once again the Nameless Ones as the enemy, and the Valkyrie of course gets in the body of Barbara Norriss, while Barbara’s insane mind is trapped in the Valkyrie's body. So Hulk #126 is the first Barbara, Hulk #142 is the first Valkyrie (in this first apperance she is in the body of Samantha Parrington), while Avengers #83 just shows the Enchantress disguised as the Valkyrie, and thus does not represent the first apperance of the Valkyrie even if it should have come out earlier, I believe. Avengers 83 is still the 1st time the Valkyrie name and costume was used, 9 months before Hulk 142, so Avengers is the one to chase IMO If we want to go in detail, all four (Avengers #83, Hulk #126 and #142 and Defenders #4) have the same importance, but strictly speaking in Avengers #83 we see the Valkyrie but in fact it’s just a spell of the Enchantress which appears in disguise. The Valkyrie was under a spell from the Enchantress, and thus we have: – Avengers #83: Enhantress appears disguised as the Valkyrie, forms the Lady Liberators deceiving the female members of Avengers, and they fight the male members; – Hulk #126: First apperance of Barbara Norriss (which becames insane at the end of the story arc, see Subby #21 and Doctor Strange #183); – Hulk #142: The Valkyrie incarnates in the body of Samantha Parrington and battles the Hulk, then Samantha gets back to herself; – Defenders #4: the Valkyrie acquires the body of Barbara Norriss, while the "absent" Barbara is trapped within the body of the Valkyrie in Asgard. – some Defenders issues in the #60s tell the origin of the Valkyrie in full. I hope Crimebuster can correct me if I am wrong, but Avengers #83, although showing her physical features for the first time, is not the first apperance of her. :shrug: You are correct. Essentially, Valkyrie was a fake identity created by the Enchantress as part of her scheme to divide and conquer the Avengers in Avengers #83. It's like Supernova turning out to be Booster Gold, or Eric the Red turning out to be Cyclops. After this issue came out, someone at Marvel said, "hey, that Valkyrie design is really good. The name and costume are too cool, we should use it again." So they created the new heroic Valkyrie - same exact look and name - and made up a backstory to explain why she looked exactly like the Enchantress's fake identity. (that story being that she is an actual valkyrie that Enchantress knew on Asgard was copying, so she already existed in the MU, but the readers just hadn't met her before) So this is kind of the opposite of a lot of other muddied first appearances where the civilian identity appears first - like Carol Danvers - and the costumed/superpowered identity appears later. In this case, the Valkyrie identity appears first, but there's no actual character associated with it until many months later.

I don't have a problem with sig series but it has created a tactic whereby ppl use it to attempt to squeeze a few more dollars out of a HG book that already has provenance and Pedigree. So if you now want to own the TC 227 you have to accept that it's Signed. As a Ped collector i have previously ranted about leaving them the alone but another falls victim here. Nice to see the Rocky remains intact. (thumbs u

Didn't someone on here just buy 500 Dazzler 1's? Trust me there are LOTS MORE where those came from.

Seems the Sig Series Twin Cities 9.8 is up at Comic Connect next month. It will be interesting to see what impact the wrap and signature have on this book. My disdain for sig series Pedigrees is well documented elsewhere. I believe this one changed hands recently and looks like the new owner decided to so the Yellow Label route this summer.

Hey its a 35c so I'm just sorry the book got damaged at all. That said, Price Variant Club is still a pretty small club and I find it slightly amusing that the OP on this topic posted here and the buyer is also a forumite who frequents this thread. Should add that to the rules, The ## rule of PVC, "before you go public in PVC thread communicate with each other first." Both parties are known and I believe I have purchased from both and was super happy so seems the post monster got one and hope the damage is not too great and they part on good terms.

I'm subbing my nicest copy...which also happens to have a Mark Jewelers insert ..the rest are mine, so... So you're saying it won't be at a good price? You know I never noticed in all these years that you Registered one year later to the day I did. Oh and the Board Grader of the Year anniversary is coming up, does that mean you are graded comings for free this year

Compared to the AA 11 craze or insert "Bronze Age 1st app. or significant event book with Black cover" here, the MP one is just getting its time to shine. Now granted its a little latter and probably not Luke Cage 1, but come to think of it, given where the Marvel movie story lines are going how much screen time to we envision for Warlock vs Luke Cage. So while it is no Bats 227, or even Thor 165, it is in the bubble, not the first, will not be the last so adjust your copies accordingly.

Nice book SG

Show me a thread where a book changed four times. The JIM83 changed twice, as far as I know. Splitting hairs here. When all is said and done, the book will have been labeled four times. Graded Blue. Graded Purple. Graded Blue. Now graded Purple again. I supposed you could spin it and say they were wrong twice but RIGHT TWICE! Like I said, kinda splitting hairs there. Why is that spinning? CGC did, in fact, screw up twice - it's silly to pretend that every label this book has had has been due to a mistake. Because (wait for it) no one really knows if the book is indeed trimmed. How do we know it's trimmed? Because the person who screwed up multiple times has assured us that now this time, with 100% veracity, it's trimmed? We'll never know. The only real debate is regarding how often incidents like this occur. Oh, and Dan's carpet. The frequency here is not as important as the overall concept. These statements are pretty easy to follow and extremely hard to refute IMO. CGC missed trimming on the same book twice. Trimming is a restoration tactic used to increase the technical grade of a book. Submitters of trimmed books to CGC DO NOT disclose that a book has been trimmed when it is submitted. Un-restored copies of books are work more than restored copies in the same grade. CGC has no way of determining how many trimmed books have been submitted using the technique that CGC missed on two occasions. From these statements one could assert that CGC is not able to detect trimming (using the JIM 83 technique) unless it has prior information to know that trimming exists. The crux is that 99.99999% of the time CGC does not have the luxury of knowing that a book they have assigned a PLOD was previously in a Universal Blue label. Another interesting piece of empirical evidence concerning the PLOD - Blue situation and really the only one that I can think of that demonstrates frequency (leading me to believe that there are more examples of this out there than I am comfortable with). Have a look at GPA for Marvel Keys (IMO it is not be accident that the subject of this book was a JIM 83) - look at how many restored copies there are in GPA and the Census compared to non-Key books of the same era - the % is staggering. I would extrapolate this to mean that Marvel Keys are very susceptible to restoration tactics - this may not be new news to anyone. However, taken that in the context of the discussion in this thread, you could make a strong inference that there are significant numbers of Marvel keys in Blue Holders that are Trimmed. I say this as someone who is currently shopping for a HG 9.0 or better DD1. Do I have pause, or reduced desire to plunk down the 7,000 + it will take to get a copy, I have to say the answer to that is yes I do.

Never takes you long to jump on the "Anti-Dan" "Dan's a liar" band wagon Rug = Dan? Better? I was struck by this part of the thread, when you posted: My "model" is to seek out books that look undergraded in hopes of an upgrade. A bit of a gamble I know, but Im willing to take that gamble. Many people on these Boards including you have benefitted from this. Ive always been honest about it, and never tried to hide it Until others pointed out you were selling on these boards 9.6s that had previously graded 9.2s, 9.4s that had previously graded 9.0s, As for this thread, it's good that you went public with the label color change on the JIM83 - it's another excellent reminder that CGC isn't completely accurate in assessing trimming. I have always had a huge problem with this tactic and the who do not maintain the provenance of Pedigree books to mask the Grade bumps. I can appreciate that Dan had the Blue-Purple-Blue happen to him and also am grateful that he brought it to light in a public forum, but .. I'll pay ppl the .2 + Grade bump, but I for one would appreciate knowing its a Ped. I mean even tell me after I've paid you so I can petition CGC to have the holder redone and add the provenance Back onto the label. Had a hard time posting this as I'm not one to deflect a conversation but the tactic really hits a nerve. That said as much as I vehemently oppose the tactic, if the OP practices it, that still has absolutely no bearing on this whole situation

You should post more often. (thumbs u When the update was posted regarding the book going back to blue, and the backlash was getting amped up, and people were asking what CGC was going to do, etc... I thought about when the Ewert stuff first went down. I remember a post that you made about crisis management and damage control. It was in response to CGC creating the advisory board (anyone remember that?) made up of customers (including board members). Hey thanks Chrisco, its old home week in this thread. I used to post a lot more in CG, but an interesting thing happened over the last 10+ years on the CGC boards - a lot of these people became my friends. I mean I was invited to jeffreykli and FFB's weddings and goldust, Pov, Steve B., greggy, joey, tth2, garth, david, rhino (steve) (oh man I dont want to miss anyone ) have actually sat down and had dinner on many occasions. Have to admit I enjoy those discussions a lot and tend not to post in CG much and If I hadn't have been at the Con having dinner / drinks with a lot of the forumites mentioned I may have never known about this thread. I encourage ANYONE to go back and read the Ewert thread, there are more than a few but a couple of the big ones. If you are spending your money on slabs, you should know as much as possible about what you are potentially getting. Also want to call out Steve Borock's post, but besides Dr. banner's post which caused me to think bad thoughts, Steve's post reminded me of the pre-CGC days and all the shenanigans that went on. Certification did cull a lot of the techniques. (back in the day I would only spend $100 on a comic book, when I had it which was rare, with 2 dealers"Doug Sulipa and Jim Payette" for fear of god knows what going on with the books) The rub is books are more expensive now, achieve more multiples of guide in HG, so IMO certification needs to be held to an increased standard congruent, or in the ball park to, the increased dollars that these items are costing.

Your car sucks. Ouch, well I actually think its the best vehicle I have ever bought. Only problem is the Stealerships and what they want to charge you for maintenance and service. Luckily there is a BMW Master Mechanic that has an Indy shop in Monterey, that has increase the ownership experience tenfold. I'm just teasing although I was a Benz guy for over a decade. Finding a good, honest tech is the best thing you can do if you like cars. It makes all the difference. No argument from me on that one. (thumbs u

It depends on the circumstances and the individual. Like others here, I have enough experience in judging a book's grade and in restoration to be comfortable making a judgement on a raw book. If a raw and a slabbed were in the same grade and the similarly priced, I would buy the raw for my collection, allowing me to examine it fully. I would buy the slabbed if I wanted to resell in the holder, as it would save me time and money in getting it graded. For example, I bought a slabbed 5.5 Mister Mystery some years back. Looked very nice until I cracked it and there were a pair of spline splits...about 3/4" at the top and a "spider-web split" smack in the center of the spine of about an inch, going about 1/2" into the back cover. Had I seen that raw I would not have paid as much as I did. Don't think these boards represent the general world of comic collecting. This is a fairly rarefied atmosphere. We have developed a baseline that includes CGC. It colors our perception of what the collecting world is really like. This. Thanks FT. Not sure what is going on but for a while now 95% of my posts are not replied to. I appreciate it. I read your post Michael and as always appreciate your insight, sad that the only school forumites only come out of the wood work for the disaster thread - I'm guilty as charged on that one.

Your car sucks. Ouch, well I actually think its the best vehicle I have ever bought. Only problem is the Stealerships and what they want to charge you for maintenance and service. Luckily there is a BMW Master Mechanic that has an Indy shop in Monterey, that has increase the ownership experience tenfold.

Chris, by the way hope all is well in T.O I don't think things will occur in those absolutes, though I agree that those are options. The third factor is cost and, or money. Let's assume that CGC is not able to detect micro trimming to the same degree as non-dis assembly pressing - that is a very shocking idea, but again we don't know how many books CGC is missing (I'm hopeful that number is lower, but this recent incident probably demonstrates that it is higher than the general collecting public believes). I think cessation of the certification of comic books would probably take even more than that. However, the resulting problem would largely be fought in the marketplace. Your two options, and they are two good ones play out something like this. A) Indifference. We've seen it before (sm. bit of glue to GA, NDP etc) during the latter argument people scoffed at trimming, no way that was the Rubicon - pressing not resto, trimming is in another stratosphere. Is it now years later? I don't know, but I could see indifference. Of all the posts in this thread the most disturbing is Mike's (Dr. Banner) who compares the road coins have taken to the road comics are now on. I hope Mike is wrong, but where money is involved I NEVER underestimate human nature's ability to corrupt. Are we being prepped for micro trimming acceptance? I am NOT a religious person, but pray to the comic gods that is not the case. B) Stop using CGC. The domino's need to fall here in a pretty clean line. Trimming erodes market confidence ... customers are paying less for slabbed books .... dealers are slabbing less books. There are a bunch of variables along the way, but for consumer confidence to put CGC on the street that is what is going to need to happen. I've always viewed this aspect (people looking for ways to restore books and retain Blue labels) kind of like hacking into the Matrix. People are always looking for doorways, and CGC is constantly trying to eliminate their techniques - or tell us, "there is no spoon" when things go awry. As I said earlier, I hope they exercise due diligence and use this as a quality control tool to make their product more consistent. I support and always have supported certification, BUT not to the extreme of Indifference.

There was obviously much discussion about this at the ECCC Convention, I think in person discussions are always more poignant as people tend to consider what they say, as the language is tied to them in a real world setting. Joseph characterizes the salient points here and I believe Namisgr and others have indicated that it is not a "New" occurrence for Purple to turn Blue - I accept Joseph's point that this situation is different. In situation A) Everyone at CGC involved in grading saw the book, knew what they were looking for and affirmed that they saw it. In situation B) they didn't take it seriously, missed that there was indeed no resto, so it comes back Blue during the "blind" resub. Neither of those scenarios is appealing to say the least. Nobody knows the exact frequency, not even CGC, as most re-subs are raw. The discussion has also covered the "guarantee" aspects of CGC - I hope most people here understand that there is no guarantee. So what do I seek to add I think the idea of consistency. I accept that CGC is not perfect, humans are fallible and grading is subjective. I think you have to accept those statements as fact if you want to collect certified comic books. I tend to argue that collectors do NOT factor in those statements enough when they are buying certified books and I'm thankful that they don't when I sell them. Still consistency, that is what it comes back to for me and that was the topic of more than a few of the discussions I had with very experienced collectors and dealers, with hundreds, thousands - combined maybe even hundreds of thousands of submissions when this topic arose over the weekend. The general consensus and true this maybe skewed by that fact that this combination of people knew A LOT of the "issues" CGC has been having over the past few years - all accepted that Trimming was probably the toughest defect to consistently detect. But all of that said, there were some serious, well reasoned, calm, professionally stated "concerns" about CGC's consistency and their dealings with issues such as the recent "Spider-Dan Gate" situation. As one collector said to me, 'if CGC can't consistently detect trimming, that definitely devalues their product to me.' IMO a measure of a company is what it does, not when things are all systems go and ideal - the company should be judged with how it deals with adversity externally AND internally. The kindest way I can put this is that CGC has some work to do on both accounts. Will they do it? Hard to say. I know Paul and Sean and some others there, but I'm not sure who institutes planning and policy for CGC's internal structure and associated functions. It looks like Harshen has the ball on external policy for these situations, or is at least he is the front person. I hope all collectors, even the harshest CGC critics, and I have been harsh on them from time to time, understand that it is in the best interest of the Hobby that 'certification' exists. However, what I hope CGC realizes as a purveyor of certification is that consistency is the single most important characteristic in their business methodology. I think they do realize that, the crux is how important is that realization, in terms of effort required here and their willingness to, through action, legitimately maintain it. The thing that swirls around in my head is, is the JIM actually trimmed? Those people that said destroy the book what is needed is a final determination, and the resulting examination of where CGC made missteps. I really hope they exercise legitimate due diligence on this one for the overall good of certification in the hobby. Was great seeing all the "Usual and unusual Suspects" in Seattle. Best Jason

Part of me is saddened that this topic has to be a thread, however a bigger part of me wonders what took so long. This has been going on for a while (years) now, nice to have the beginning of a consolidated reference to all the "work" they do to items.

WTF? I this really a $2,700 book in 9.6?? Bonds, it used to be that, probably a 2K book now, of the last 3 sales, 2 have been right at 2K and one sale was actually underneath 2K.

they aren't taken down, they're at the end. $852 and $800 respectively. I was really tempted on the 222, still need a copy and that one was very well centered with WP, it went for 100 less than the Don Rosa at Heritage on the weekend and I thought it to be the superior copy, still a bit of a hike as they were selling for 600 until recently.

I might even call that cough cough well bought if you can call 3600 for a BA book well bought. But in the context of the other copies and as I said this copy looked really sharp, it seems like well bought may be. Here's a scan for those that didn't see it.

3,633 the descent continues. What am I missing? Sorry I edited my post to be more descriptive. The Batman 227 auctioned just now on comiclink hammered for $3,633 which I believe to be a record low at open auction.