timfinz

It was blue twice, so while I agree mistakes can be made, in this case, it was either made TWICE on the same book, if it is trimmed. But I dont think it is, so hence the mistake was made once saying it was trimmed. Whether it was one mistake or two. The problem is how Dan was treated, the fact that CGC has no established practice/protocol for dealing with mistakes, and that they are able to dismiss or impose things on their customers who have no choice but to accept it. So had Dan's book come back at say 6.5 with a blue label would we be calling it a mistake or just good fortune? How many books have been resubmitted and gotten higher grades? Do we hear about those? I'm not trying to be smart, I'm being sincere. Do we ever hear about books being re-submitted that come back at a higher grade? And I'm not referring to those that get pressed or dry cleaned. Yes we do. In fact, the OP's 'business model' revolves entirely around doing exactly that. And that's in no way a judgement. So you're telling me that the OP's business is cracking open slabbed books and resubmitting them for higher grades without pressing or cleaning? And this is advertised? I'm not telling you. The OP is telling you. Didn't PSA have a monopoly on card grading at one time Dan Doesn't your model work on straight resub no pressing? In other words a CGC mistake? If a new grading pops up they are going to be likely tighter and more consistent. Meaning you'll have to submit to CGC and crack the other company's to make money. Or you'll need to wait a couple years til the new grading company either has cycles of grading or enough on the market you can find the mistakes. How does a competitor help your model? Or would you adjust to a new model altogether with a new company? My "model" is to seek out books that look undergraded in hopes of an upgrade. A bit of a gamble I know, but Im willing to take that gamble. Many people on these Boards including you have benefitted from this. I know that the number in the corner is only an OPINION. Whether a book is trimmed, color touched, pieces added, that should be a FACT. This thread was started about going from Blue to Purple (and now back to Blue), not about a book being graded tight or not. If a new co could detect resto better, it would benefit ALL of us! Ive always been honest about it, and never tried to hide it (thumbs u As I said...'And that's in no way a judgement.' I know Well this thread could have been three pages if it weren't for kav! Not judging you either Dan, I'm now up to speed. I still believe strongly in CGC and that what ever the outcome is we should support them. Give them as much feedback and information necessary to make the grading process more reliable and honourable. Most of all help to build credibility to the hobby!

It was blue twice, so while I agree mistakes can be made, in this case, it was either made TWICE on the same book, if it is trimmed. But I dont think it is, so hence the mistake was made once saying it was trimmed. Whether it was one mistake or two. The problem is how Dan was treated, the fact that CGC has no established practice/protocol for dealing with mistakes, and that they are able to dismiss or impose things on their customers who have no choice but to accept it. So had Dan's book come back at say 6.5 with a blue label would we be calling it a mistake or just good fortune? How many books have been resubmitted and gotten higher grades? Do we hear about those? I'm not trying to be smart, I'm being sincere. Do we ever hear about books being re-submitted that come back at a higher grade? And I'm not referring to those that get pressed or dry cleaned. Yes we do. In fact, the OP's 'business model' revolves entirely around doing exactly that. And that's in no way a judgement. So you're telling me that the OP's business is cracking open slabbed books and resubmitting them for higher grades without pressing or cleaning? And this is advertised? I'm not telling you. The OP is telling you. Didn't PSA have a monopoly on card grading at one time Dan Doesn't your model work on straight resub no pressing? In other words a CGC mistake? If a new grading pops up they are going to be likely tighter and more consistent. Meaning you'll have to submit to CGC and crack the other company's to make money. Or you'll need to wait a couple years til the new grading company either has cycles of grading or enough on the market you can find the mistakes. How does a competitor help your model? Or would you adjust to a new model altogether with a new company? My "model" is to seek out books that look undergraded in hopes of an upgrade. A bit of a gamble I know, but Im willing to take that gamble. Many people on these Boards including you have benefitted from this. I know that the number in the corner is only an OPINION. Whether a book is trimmed, color touched, pieces added, that should be a FACT. This thread was started about going from Blue to Purple (and now back to Blue), not about a book being graded tight or not. If a new co could detect resto better, it would benefit ALL of us! Ive always been honest about it, and never tried to hide it Sorry, Dan. Having to read a lot of the...ahem 'kav' dribble on here I think I missed that. So when I responded to FT's post I was making the same comment. The grade is variable, the colour of label is not!

I can agree! But one question I would like answered: WHY? Why would you de-slab a book and then resubmit it? Because CGC are inconsistent and you're hoping for a grade bump...or as in this case, a designation bump. There are a lot of people who play this game. Why? Because CGC are inconsistent. You can't call CGC inconsistent for an error in judgement. I am a professional in my line of work but I too make mistakes, that doesn't make me inconsistent. Not every book that comes off a press is the same, nor is every person's impression of a books grade. If everyone had the same opinion of everything what a very strange world this would be. But I guess the fact that my opinion of this "error in judgement" differs from yours is proof positive that would never happen. If there are enough 'errors of judgement', a pattern is produced and it is called inconsistency. There are enough 'errors of judgement' with CGC for people to use the crack and resub game to make good coin. I would respectfully suggest that's a pattern. I'm an estimator in the construction industry. My job is all about details and counting, measuring and counting again. I can take off a job three times and come up with three different prices. It doesn't mean I've made an error in judgement, it's called a variance. Getting a differing opinion of a grade is a variance. Getting a blue label and a purple label in this case would be an error in judgement. If everything were absolute then grading a book would not require three people (or 12 in this case?) one would suffice.

It was blue twice, so while I agree mistakes can be made, in this case, it was either made TWICE on the same book, if it is trimmed. But I dont think it is, so hence the mistake was made once saying it was trimmed. Whether it was one mistake or two. The problem is how Dan was treated, the fact that CGC has no established practice/protocol for dealing with mistakes, and that they are able to dismiss or impose things on their customers who have no choice but to accept it. So had Dan's book come back at say 6.5 with a blue label would we be calling it a mistake or just good fortune? How many books have been resubmitted and gotten higher grades? Do we hear about those? I'm not trying to be smart, I'm being sincere. Do we ever hear about books being re-submitted that come back at a higher grade? And I'm not referring to those that get pressed or dry cleaned. Yes we do. In fact, the OP's 'business model' revolves entirely around doing exactly that. And that's in no way a judgement. So you're telling me that the OP's business is cracking open slabbed books and resubmitting them for higher grades without pressing or cleaning? And this is advertised?

It was blue twice, so while I agree mistakes can be made, in this case, it was either made TWICE on the same book, if it is trimmed. But I dont think it is, so hence the mistake was made once saying it was trimmed. Whether it was one mistake or two. The problem is how Dan was treated, the fact that CGC has no established practice/protocol for dealing with mistakes, and that they are able to dismiss or impose things on their customers who have no choice but to accept it. So had Dan's book come back at say 6.5 with a blue label would we be calling it a mistake or just good fortune? How many books have been resubmitted and gotten higher grades? Do we hear about those? I'm not trying to be smart, I'm being sincere. Do we ever hear about books being re-submitted that come back at a higher grade? And I'm not referring to those that get pressed or dry cleaned. When I originally cracked the 6.0 Blue - I thought it was at least a 6.5. As it turns out it got a 7.0. I don't know what happened to the book after I sold it in the Purple slab. Perhaps it got a little damaged when the new owner took it out of the slab, maybe a dinged corner in shipment to Florida Except for that crease, it was a beautiful book. The person I bought it from is SUPER pickey about his books, so that just confirmed my opinion Dan, did you have the book when it was raw, or did you acquire it slabbed?

I can agree! But one question I would like answered: WHY? Why would you de-slab a book and then resubmit it? Because CGC are inconsistent and you're hoping for a grade bump...or as in this case, a designation bump. There are a lot of people who play this game. Why? Because CGC are inconsistent. You can't call CGC inconsistent for an error in judgement. I am a professional in my line of work but I too make mistakes, that doesn't make me inconsistent. Not every book that comes off a press is the same, nor is every person's impression of a books grade. If everyone had the same opinion of everything what a very strange world this would be. But I guess the fact that my opinion of this "error in judgement" differs from yours is proof positive that would never happen.

It was blue twice, so while I agree mistakes can be made, in this case, it was either made TWICE on the same book, if it is trimmed. But I dont think it is, so hence the mistake was made once saying it was trimmed. Whether it was one mistake or two. The problem is how Dan was treated, the fact that CGC has no established practice/protocol for dealing with mistakes, and that they are able to dismiss or impose things on their customers who have no choice but to accept it. So had Dan's book come back at say 6.5 with a blue label would we be calling it a mistake or just good fortune? How many books have been resubmitted and gotten higher grades? Do we hear about those? I'm not trying to be smart, I'm being sincere. Do we ever hear about books being re-submitted that come back at a higher grade? And I'm not referring to those that get pressed or dry cleaned.

You are taking isolated incidents and extrapolating them like it's common place. It isn't. I made a living fixing Benz's for the last 11 years of that career and yet they are regarded as awesome cars. Why? Because they're perfect? If they were perfect they wouldn't have 10 or 15 dealerships in Southern Ontario to repair them. Isolated incident card played.... So why was the book ever de-slabbed and resubmitted in the first place? What is the reason for doing something like that? Because they didn't believe it to be trimmed. That was the Purple label resubmit. But why go through the bother of cracking open a blue label, not get it signed, not have it pressed, just resubmit it hoping to get a higher grade? You know anywhere else something similar to this would be looked upon as karma? I'm frustrated with the whole notion of people submitting books and expecting, in this case it sounds like 12 different people to come up with the same response/grade? If the book had come back with a higher grade and a blue label do you think we would have the same thread count?

I can agree! But one question I would like answered: WHY? Why would you de-slab a book and then resubmit it?

You are taking isolated incidents and extrapolating them like it's common place. It isn't. I made a living fixing Benz's for the last 11 years of that career and yet they are regarded as awesome cars. Why? Because they're perfect? If they were perfect they wouldn't have 10 or 15 dealerships in Southern Ontario to repair them. Isolated incident card played.... So why was the book ever de-slabbed and resubmitted in the first place? What is the reason for doing something like that?

Does kav have: a). a real job? b). no job? c). this......as a job? d). a real life? e). no life? f). to give up a life? g). a lot of time on his hands? h). too much time on his hands? i). a lot of posts? j). too many posts? k). to give up his posts? l). to get his own private thread so he can post to himself?

Is it Friday yet?

Well said comicwiz!

The problem is that we have put too much expectation on CGC for something that is not an exact science as Liam stated previously. It is easy for us to make accusations with respect to CGC accuracy and consistency because we are not the ones reviewing the books and applying the grades and notes. As an active participant on the PGM thread in these forums I can tell you that I have looked at the same books in the thread and graded them and then re-graded them three some times even four times and come up with different grades. This is most frequent in the mid grades 4.5 to 9.0. I purposely try and re-grade books that I have looked at previously to try and hone my accuracy and believe me it is not easy. And yes grading from a scan is not always accurate it's just fun, but it proves a point that we are all just human. If there was a simple solution to this whole fiasco I am sure that CGC would or will try and come up with one but in the greater picture I believe that grading books is an art and not without it's faults. And to cast doubt or blame on any one at CGC or all of CGC for that matter, for their work is unfair. The fact that they have issued a statement is proof positive that they are aware of the problem(s) and that with time and effort will hopefully try and correct or at least minimize the problems. I think now is the time to get behind CGC and give them our support to try and move forward with creating a more stable and accurate grading and restoration detection systems. Provide them with more feedback if necessary and with that feedback give them the opportunity and guidance to move in the right direction. We have to believe!

No, just 300 posts a day bias. For some concrete data: Last week Kav had 349 posts. Next closest person surprisingly wasn't Slym and only came in at 177. Some guy named timern- coiny I presume… http://boardreader.com/site/www_collectors_society_com_17426.html Hey, don't drag me into this…pleeease!!! Oh wow you're not a coiny. I recognize the avatar and the sig but I didn't recognize the name. My fault. And I was only trying to illustrate how much Kav posts. Sorry to call you out. Aaaahgg, I've been outed!!!

No, just 300 posts a day bias. For some concrete data: Last week Kav had 349 posts. Next closest person surprisingly wasn't Slym and only came in at 177. Some guy named timern- coiny I presume… http://boardreader.com/site/www_collectors_society_com_17426.html Hey, don't drag me into this...pleeease!!!

And now I think we know what your problem is!

I hear you Jimmers, it was just an attempt on my part to try and stir things up a little with regard to the way the census is being screwed up with this CPR game (Which I learned yesterday has nothing to do with a drowning person)

If they had that kind of optical recognition software then they most likely wouldn't need "professional graders"?

And I'm not really sure why you would think that this makes the "customer a criminal". You'll have to be a little more informative.

If i remember correctly, PSA/DNA has invisible ink. CGC could use that to barcode a book. THEY BETTER NOT. I don't want them adding chemicals to a book I won. If I take it out and keep it raw why should they keep their mark on it If they were to use invisible UV ink to "tattoo" the book in an inconspicuous area inside the book what difference would it make to you? Just means that if someone were to resubmit the book for grading it would come up in the CGC system as a book that had already been graded. At least the customer could be notified that the book had previously been graded. I'm sure there are other logical advantages that could come of this! That the book was previously means squat. The person breaks it out for SS or mishandles it. IT results in new grade. The tattoo will accomplish nothing except add chemicals to a book that is sensitive to chemicals So tell me why someone would break it out of a holder, mis-handle it and then submit it to expect a higher grade?????????? But sometimes people bust books out for other reasons.years ago I broke out my ST 110 because I wanted to read it,smell it ect...Since then I have upgraded,this time with a raw book.with the prices going nuts I may one day(shudder) trade my old copy for something.said person who gets this book(with the old label label saved for them) may very well re submit...I take great care of my comics,but cannot guarantee it was not damaged at all....the tattooing idea leaves a terrible taste in my mouth. It's not like an ink-like tattoo. I just used the terminology to give you the idea that if the books were "tagged" that at least there would be some way of knowing the history of the book. And I'm not saying that the only reason someone breaks open a slabbed book is to resubmit it hoping to get a higher grade but let's not fool ourselves, is that not what ultimately happened here? If the book had been "inconspicuously tagged" and if the book would have been resubmitted to CGC, they would have scanned the "inconspicuous tag printed with invisible ink somewhere on the interior page(s)" and then they would have informed the graders that it had already been graded previously. I'm sure that they would pull the notes from the previous grade and make a comparison to current condition and then decide from there how it would be handled. The way it is right now someone de-slabs a book and resubmits it hoping for a higher grade because who knows what kind of night the grader had? Fingers crossed it comes back with a higher grade and then you have two books in the census - one of which no longer exists? How often does this happen? How many non-existent resubmitted upgraded books are there? If any of you reading this have participated in the PGM thread or the March/April/May Madness thread, how many of you have tried to grade the same book more than once (and not five or ten minutes a part) I mean like a week later or two? Did you come up with the same grade? Most likely not unless the book is in the very lower or very upper grading tiers. Going this route treats the customer like a criminal and exposes the fact that CGC cannot catch all restoration despite their claims. I don't want CGC chemically treating my books just to make their life easier. And I suppose this route that we are in right now is making everyone's lives "easy"?

If i remember correctly, PSA/DNA has invisible ink. CGC could use that to barcode a book. THEY BETTER NOT. I don't want them adding chemicals to a book I won. If I take it out and keep it raw why should they keep their mark on it If they were to use invisible UV ink to "tattoo" the book in an inconspicuous area inside the book what difference would it make to you? Just means that if someone were to resubmit the book for grading it would come up in the CGC system as a book that had already been graded. At least the customer could be notified that the book had previously been graded. I'm sure there are other logical advantages that could come of this! That the book was previously means squat. The person breaks it out for SS or mishandles it. IT results in new grade. The tattoo will accomplish nothing except add chemicals to a book that is sensitive to chemicals So tell me why someone would break it out of a holder, mis-handle it and then submit it to expect a higher grade?????????? But sometimes people bust books out for other reasons.years ago I broke out my ST 110 because I wanted to read it,smell it ect...Since then I have upgraded,this time with a raw book.with the prices going nuts I may one day(shudder) trade my old copy for something.said person who gets this book(with the old label label saved for them) may very well re submit...I take great care of my comics,but cannot guarantee it was not damaged at all....the tattooing idea leaves a terrible taste in my mouth. It's not like an ink-like tattoo. I just used the terminology to give you the idea that if the books were "tagged" that at least there would be some way of knowing the history of the book. And I'm not saying that the only reason someone breaks open a slabbed book is to resubmit it hoping to get a higher grade but let's not fool ourselves, is that not what ultimately happened here? If the book had been "inconspicuously tagged" and if the book would have been resubmitted to CGC, they would have scanned the "inconspicuous tag printed with invisible ink somewhere on the interior page(s)" and then they would have informed the graders that it had already been graded previously. I'm sure that they would pull the notes from the previous grade and make a comparison to current condition and then decide from there how it would be handled. The way it is right now someone de-slabs a book and resubmits it hoping for a higher grade because who knows what kind of night the grader had? Fingers crossed it comes back with a higher grade and then you have two books in the census - one of which no longer exists? How often does this happen? How many non-existent resubmitted upgraded books are there? If any of you reading this have participated in the PGM thread or the March/April/May Madness thread, how many of you have tried to grade the same book more than once (and not five or ten minutes a part) I mean like a week later or two? Did you come up with the same grade? Most likely not unless the book is in the very lower or very upper grading tiers.

SWEET Most cool!

I've lost all confidence in this thread!

If i remember correctly, PSA/DNA has invisible ink. CGC could use that to barcode a book. THEY BETTER NOT. I don't want them adding chemicals to a book I won. If I take it out and keep it raw why should they keep their mark on it If they were to use invisible UV ink to "tattoo" the book in an inconspicuous area inside the book what difference would it make to you? Just means that if someone were to resubmit the book for grading it would come up in the CGC system as a book that had already been graded. At least the customer could be notified that the book had previously been graded. I'm sure there are other logical advantages that could come of this! That the book was previously means squat. The person breaks it out for SS or mishandles it. IT results in new grade. The tattoo will accomplish nothing except add chemicals to a book that is sensitive to chemicals So tell me why someone would break it out of a holder, mis-handle it and then submit it to expect a higher grade?????????? They might resub after SS They might break it open to read for their own collection and decide to reesub knowing it will get a lower grade. Is CGC supposed to re-Tattoo a book each time it comes in? +1 Tattooing a book is pointless. Especially if you are a SS freak and keep breaking it out to have more names put on. I once had a book I crack Multiple times and Had 9 sigs on it The book would only be tagged with invisible ink once. Then cgc could document its history linked to that serial number. Would actually be able to track the provenance. A Little water and the key could be reased And I suppose the water would help to increase the grade and value of the book? On a serious note. I think the idea of tattooing each CGC graded book with indelible invisible ink would eliviate a lot of the issues around this CPR business.