Silverdream

OT: who is Stacker? I started this thread almost 9 years ago, and it says he started this thread, even though he wasn't a member until 2008? Odd. Please continue...

Wow, how does that even happen?

60 is definitely nice to have but 54 is the key.

I just don't get this.

I understand that 54 has been considered the " Key" for decades, but seriously... Its nearly identical to the Defenders situation.

How can it go both ways?

Enlighten me please, I just don't get it.

Also, I doubt CGC would ever change how they label the books, unless there was a mass shift to BB60. Too many long time collectors and dealers holding 54 imo, would upset a lot of " important people"

Sorry Larry. I honestly don't remember.

 

100% agree. There are a ton of these, and this is in no way X-23's first app. I read somwhere that that test tube was just coincidence.

that test tube BS and people putting it in their sale title is a great way to assemble a list of sellers I dont want to buy from.

 

It's a like a hype/pump detector.

 

"read somwhere that that test tube was just coincidence"

 

link or proof please...

 

 

Really sounds like too much of a coinky-dinky to me . . .

It is too much of a coincidence.

Whoever created the physical female form of X-23 really knew wolverines backstory and pulled " X-23" directly out of wolverine # 80, I don't see how it could have happened any other way.

For the record, I still think its dumb that the book is selling for more than a few bucks, whats the print run? 150k? It's just some DNA. The X-23 on the bottle wasn't meant to lead into the X-23 we know today, it was simply a really good writer pulling something from the past and making it into something. This is the market we live it currently however, so it is what it is. I would rather people be excited about comics than not be, so ill deal with it.

I think an argument can be made for Uncanny x-men 201. It is an actual appearance. Its the same person.

Wolverine # 80... a test tube? A jar of glass or whatever holding DNA? That's a stretch Mr. Fantastic would be proud of.

Look, folks...this is reality.

 

If we ever face the madness of the early 90's...and I mean, by the amount of people and money involved...then the print runs of the late 90's/early 2000's will spark an absolute frenzy.

 

Every book...every single one...with print runs less than 150,000 for years.

 

And the good runs....Authority, Planetary, Johns' Flash run, Loeb's Superman run, Ultimate Spiderman, Morrison's JLA...these books will be impossible to find.

 

There simply aren't any copies that exist. There are no "hoards" of these books hiding, like with Spawn #1, New Mutants #98, X-Force #1, 2, etc.

 

If you want the books....you must get them now.

 

Donut has been saying it, I've been saying it, others have been saying it for 10 years now: if you want these books, you have to get them, now, while they're cheap.

 

I checked out Deadpool books on eBay, and was amazed to see books with print runs in the 30,000s not selling for $4.

 

I was tempted. And I'm the cheapest guy around.

 

This isn't hype...I'm not selling them, nor is anyone I know.

 

If you want these books....get them. Don't delay.

+1

I would add that you mentioned the 150,000 print run number to be all inclusive, but the reality is, most of these books are well under 100k, many under 50k print runs.

among

Apparently, being the grammar police is how one gets a high post count and earns the " respect" of the community.

Not eBay - but I sold 40 copies of New Teen Titans 2 in Baltimore for $75 each.

 

Cool.

 

You usually get more money at shows than on ebay for certain books but thats really impressive you were able to unload so many copies.

 

It's impressive that he HAD that many copies.

A store I frequented had a cover price sale on its half a million comics in the back rooms back in 1999. My friend beat me there and walked away with almost 100 copies of NTT 2.... at cover. For the life of me, I never understood why they didn't limit how many, or pulled keys.

I walked away with 75 copies of X-Factor 6 and have always been peeved about that until a few years ago

Looking back, I prolly could be a millionaire right now if I bought all the keys they had.

Just a background really fast on why they had so many copies. They served the largest Military base in the world with comics and ordered nearly 200 copies of every single book from DC and Marvel. They did this to support the massive amount of requests for long runs of back issues from soldiers that had been out of the states etc. It was the most awesome childhood I could have asked for, having that store near me,, and I even worked there a few years.

I find it strange that these inserts where not in all copies of these issues. Marvel was self promoting their own kids magazine, why not put it in every copy?

Its possible they intended it for a few of their main issues and then decided to put them in more books and focused on large metro areas instead? Doing this would have caused them to only insert them into a small percentage of each book because they only had so many inserts printed?

I am very intrigued by the distribution method of the books with these inserts. Was it willy-nilly or did they have a focused area?

WALL OF TEXT

Someone apparently has a lot more time on their hands than I. Be happy! It could have been the ....

THE GREAT WALL OF TEXT

They are buying CGC comics for a reason.

 

If you are buying CGC for the information on the label you might be making a mistake.

I am just hoping they get a better read on the cover price never mind the contents

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They are going to make mistakes, nobody is going to be perfect in quality control. That's not the point.

I am talking about an upfront change to how they approach appearances. This could still mislabeled, but to just get it wrong on every label because they don't care, well that's not a mistake, and I think they need to work on that.

Edit: Nice variants if they are yours! CGC should pay for those to be reslabbed including shipping IMO. That would only be right.

I think they need to take how they label books more seriously. That's all im saying. Why is that so difficult to understand?

 

OK, but "First appearances" are a somewhat devious concept to begin with: why one should own only "first appearances"? It‘s quite an insufficiently_thoughtful_person way to look at collecting books that are – as their name implies – meant to be read.

I find your comments rather interesting. First, I never said anything at all about collecting only first appearances, where are you getting that from? Second, we are on a forum, where people tend to collect books that they can no longer open and read. Is that " quite idiotic?" as you put it? Are you calling everyone here that collects encapsulated books insufficiently_thoughtful_persons?

My entire point was that CGC should create and use a system to label first appearances properly, according to whatever " rules" they would follow. I think it would help, since they seem to not have any real direction on how they label appearances currently.

My point is lost to most of you apparently. I will cease discussing it.

Exactly. You don't need someone to hold your hand. Do research. Decide for yourself. The market is what it is, and precious few can directly influence it, much less control it. However, no individual needs the market to decide for them what they should, or should not, think about any given issue, for any reason.

 

You make it seem like everyone else is so simple minded for not wanting to spend their precious time trying to figure out if OS, or CGC are right or wrong, when all they want to do is trust what CGC puts on a label. People have plenty of other things to do than take a day researching when a character appeared first.

 

Wow. More power to you but I don't have money to just throw hundreds, (in some cases, a couple thousand) on a book because CGC told me its a first appearance without making sure myself. Especially these days where info is a computer, tablet...even cellphone away.

 

I guess people really do just buy the label (and the cover). Who cares what's inside.

You have it mixed up. I do not blindly throw my money at stuff. I am trying to protect people. The fact is, CGC does not put out anywhere near the effort they should when it comes to how they label first appearances.

When people pay $50,000 on a CGC 9.8 yet they can get a CGC 9.6 for $8,000 you better believe people are out there buying what the label says. I can do my own research, I have no problem with it, but people are going by what that label says because it should be correct. Period. I think they need to take how they label books more seriously. That's all im saying. Why is that so difficult to understand?

The real issue was there are ebay sellers were telling buyers Gamora's 1st appearance was Strange Tales 181 when it is not according to CGC, the market, and Overstreet. In my eyes, this was creating a false demand on the ebay market for those that own Strange Tales 181.

 

 

You always have to do some due dilligence. Be your own advocate. No one will protect your own interests more than yourself. That said, IH 181 & MP 4 & 7 aside, I think you could look long and hard and still not find a hotter book than ASM 194 right now.

 

Exactly. You don't need someone to hold your hand. Do research. Decide for yourself. The market is what it is, and precious few can directly influence it, much less control it. However, no individual needs the market to decide for them what they should, or should not, think about any given issue, for any reason.

One could say the same thing about grades, but I don't see many arguments saying we don't need CGC deciding the grades on books ( holding our hands as you put it ). Just do your own research right? Learn how to spot color touch, leaf casting, and so on... good luck! CGC removes the thought about grade, for most. It says 9.8, so its a 9.8. The other things they put on their labels do matter, and it does affect decision making. You make it seem like everyone else is so simple minded for not wanting to spend their precious time trying to figure out if OS, or CGC are right or wrong, when all they want to do is trust what CGC puts on a label. People have plenty of other things to do than take a day researching when a character appeared first. That doesn't mean they shouldn't be collecting comics, or are foolish for trusting another source to be correct about it. They are buying CGC comics for a reason.

I think you are drastically underestimating the influence CGC has on the market. People do not have to buy into CGC to pay attention to what they are doing with certain books.

 

There are 2,704,568 currently for sale on eBay in the section titled "comics."

 

Of those listings, 64,061 have CGC in the title, which includes PGX books, "CGC it!" and the like.

 

So, 2.4% of the listings are "CGC related."

 

The other 97.6% of the listings in comics have no direct link to CGC.

 

I think it's safe to say that the vast majority of the comic collecting world doesn't really care about CGC.

 

Just for comparison's sake: 120,827 of the listings have "Batman" in the title.

 

Nearly twice as many listings have to do with one character, than all the listings that have CGC in the title combined.

RMA you are a pretty smart dude, but I cannot even comprehend what any of that has to do with CGC's influence on the collecting community.

2.6% of ebay listings are CGC "related" So what? So there is a tiny number of CGC related books on ebay compared to raw ungraded and that means "most' collectors don't care about CGC?

I think all your numbers show is that the vast majority of comics are not worth CGC grading fees, shipping fees, 4 month waiting times et cetera.

You realize that slabbing a book costs $20+ right? How many of those "raw" copies cost less than the cost of slabbing? These numbers you are throwing out really doesn't show anything other than there are millions of comics not worth the cost of slabbing. Using these numbers in the way you are is reaching for something that isn't there.

On cameos in general:

 

It's important to understand that, for most of the history of comics as collectibles, people didn't distinguish between "cameo" and "first appearance."

 

There were some notable exceptions (More Fun #51), but they were very rare exceptions. No one did panel counts, and said "well, if there's THIS many panels, and they're speaking, it's not, but if there's THAT many panels, and they appear on the cover, it is", etc.

 

This only began to be a question during the early 80's, when people were wondering what should be worth more.....Hulk #180, or #181.

 

The conventional wisdom said "first appearance is first appearance, no matter how small." And that's what collectors bought.

 

But now, we have this whole discussion about what's a cameo, and what's not, and it all gets very convoluted. The market, as ever, decides what will be.

 

I do agree its become ridiculous. So have the prices being paid for funny books. Things change, It WAS that way, but its not anymore. I didn't chose it, the collecting community has decided they want to be told what " THE" book is. I think that point is lost to many on these boards because this is the upper end area of collecting. We don't normally think the same as " average" collectors.

 

I don't agree with most of this, but ok. "Price paid" is entirely relative. And yes, it WAS that way, and is now not.

 

The fact that CGC is labeling books differently than what the market decided was THE book to have ages ago creates a problem, one that can only be fixed by a set standard imo.

 

According to whom? Who "sets" the "standard"? The people on this board can barely agree what time it is, much less some sort of standardized list on what constitutes an appearance.

 

Look at Fantastic Four 67. It was THE book for Him/Warlock ( please no arguments about MP 1 , this is just an example ) FF67 was hands down THE book for nearly 40 years CGC slaps first full app on Thor 165 and look what happens. Now the " market" as you said, has moved to that book, a book that was hardly blinked l at by most collectors for upwards of 4 decades. The market was TOLD what to collect and they are doing it. CGC has a huge influence on the market, so they need to do something towards consistency.

 

All of this is of course my opinion.

 

Thor #165 and #166 were key books back during the original Warlock revival of the early 90's. They were not "hardly blinked at."

 

I think many of you put far too much weight on CGC's labels. CGC has a drop of water in a gigantic lake's worth of influence on the market. The vast, vast majority of people who buy comics have little to nothing to do with CGC or slabbing in general, and certainly could not care less what the label says on a slab.

I was suggesting CGC would be the one who creates the standard. They create the grades, even tho there is arguing about cgc grades, most take it for what it is. I'm just suggesting they follow a set standard when they label something. As it stands, what they label something has a large affect on the book, and I think they do it haphazardly, which I do not think is good.

Maybe I dismissed Thor 165/166 too harshly. The point was, FF67 was the main book for 40 years, and its not anymore. As soon as Thor 165 was labeled 1st full there was a shift and its still moving that way.

What CGC labels books matter to many people who do not buy CGC books, but buy raw copies. I think you are drastically underestimating the influence CGC has on the market. People do not have to buy into CGC to pay attention to what they are doing with certain books.

So basically.. we disagree. now what

On cameos in general:

 

It's important to understand that, for most of the history of comics as collectibles, people didn't distinguish between "cameo" and "first appearance."

 

There were some notable exceptions (More Fun #51), but they were very rare exceptions. No one did panel counts, and said "well, if there's THIS many panels, and they're speaking, it's not, but if there's THAT many panels, and they appear on the cover, it is", etc.

 

This only began to be a question during the early 80's, when people were wondering what should be worth more.....Hulk #180, or #181.

 

The conventional wisdom said "first appearance is first appearance, no matter how small." And that's what collectors bought.

 

But now, we have this whole discussion about what's a cameo, and what's not, and it all gets very convoluted. The market, as ever, decides what will be.

I do agree its become ridiculous. So have the prices being paid for funny books. Things change, It WAS that way, but its not anymore. I didn't chose it, the collecting community has decided they want to be told what " THE" book is. I think that point is lost to many on these boards because this is the upper end area of collecting. We don't normally think the same as " average" collectors.

The fact that CGC is labeling books differently than what the market decided was THE book to have ages ago creates a problem, one that can only be fixed by a set standard imo.

Look at Fantastic Four 67. It was THE book for Him/Warlock ( please no arguments about MP 1 , this is just an example ) FF67 was hands down THE book for nearly 40 years CGC slaps first full app on Thor 165 and look what happens. Now the " market" as you said, has moved to that book, a book that was hardly blinked l at by most collectors for upwards of 4 decades. The market was TOLD what to collect and they are doing it. CGC has a huge influence on the market, so they need to do something towards consistency.

All of this is of course my opinion.

Ultron's first appearance is Avengers #54, not #55, but people insist on calling #54 a cameo and treating it as such because... I guess because he's not named until #55.

 

He spends most of #54 disguised as Crimson Cowl, it's true, so we only see his real face and form in one panel. But he has a major role in the issue, appearing on many pages, with a lot of dialogue.

I'm not sure if you are comparing this to something else or not. The fact Crimson Cowl was in tons of panels and pages makes Avengers 54 quite different than a single page appearance.

This is one of the more tricky ones, but I have always leaned on it being 54. Honestly, it was always listed as 54 in most guides including OS from what I recall. What happened? Couple important people had dozens of 55 and no 54's or what?

Neither could I.

Yes, CGC has omitted a lot of this information, maybe to protect themselves from a character popping up in a panel somewhere.

Starhawk has a page in #27, but I can't remember if he is called out by name. I don't think he is.

 

Yea, not called out by name, correct? Full page of panels though.

...and it looks like he is made of light...

This is very similar to hulk 180/181. The only real difference is Wolverine appears on one huge panel on the last page. Starhawk is on one page as well, but with more talking, and two tiny panels that show him in costume. Wolverine is named, Starhawk is not. To me that's a wash. It's a cameo ( as we have been calling it in comics )

To make it even more similar they both appear in a huge way on the cover of the very next issue.

Exxxxcellent. My plan is working....

 

Congratulations. I spent 5 minutes earlier today researching that book because you mentioned it. Nearly bought one too.

 

Damn you RMA. Damn you.

 

You wanna know the best part...?

 

I literally pulled that issue out of thin air. Had no clue what was in it.

 

But watch...

 

It wouldn't have worked without an obscure first appearance.

The odds of randomly selecting such a book is very, very low.

so ...

Wow, Guardians of the Galaxy (1990) #1, CGC 9.8, is already up to $330 and still has two days of bidding left to go!

 

eBay Auction

 

I have to list a few more on ebay, I have easily 10-15 copies of this book.

 

Wow. Even raws are selling for $9.99 consistently. Time to back up the truck and dump them if you have some.....

I'm trying to pare down my collection a bit. Pretty sure that cosmic Marvel is going to be part of it that goes, considering a lot of it is at a high right now.

Just gotta be smart when you sell your books. Marvel cosmic, or anything Marvel really is going to be all over the place inbetween movies and announcements.

There might be tonnage of some books out there, but its all about what the supply is when the uptick in demand blows in with the wind. True supply doesnt seem to matter these days. Waiting for a better deal? No way ,I want it now! Whatever happens to be out there for sale during that window wins.

People paying that for a 9.8 when low grade copies are available for a buck are completely insane.

 

Huh?

 

9.8 =/ 5.0

 

What's your point? Please give me an example of someone paying 1-400 times the going rate of an item outside of collecting comics, only because it's in very high grade?

Happens in coins and paper currency collecting every day. If you think grade is important in comics, go look those. Comics have nothing on them.

Technically, I don't think these are second prints but fit within the general discussion.

 

There are some Zero Hour covers that have the Zero Hour logo where the barcode usually is. They are not easy to find, in my experience.

 

I was able to find a few over the weekend and the Tampa Con.

 

Example:

 

These Zero Hour barcode variants come from collectors sets of all 5 issues.

They are harder to find than the regular issues, but still a good amount of them out there.

I posed this question on a reply in the General Thread

 

 

So when's a team really a team? When individual players are called up, or when they play together?

 

Like Avengers "We're not a team, we're a ticking time bomb waiting to explode"

 

Or the Teen Titans....they weren't a team, but were introduced in DC Comics Presents 26.... and an add to show issue one as well (Just Like Annihilation Conquest 6)

 

It is an interesting question. When was the Avengers team in the movies matched up in the comics. Were Black Widow and Hawkeye ever on the same team as the Hulk ? I'm betting they were at some point but I can't remember it. My money is on Marvel Presents #3 for the most important GotG appearance outside of their 1st appearance in Marvel Super Heroes #18.

I have to agree that Marvel presents 3 is very important. The problem is, it doesnt start with " guardians of the galaxy" Neither does marvel Two-in-one 5.

Yeah MSH 18 doesnt start with guardians either, but its the 1st app so it doesnt matter. People will find and seek out that book. The others will take some time. Their 2nd app in MTIO 5 is overlooked alot. Their first true " series" was Marvel Presents 3-12 which IMO is the most overlooked and undervalued Guardians books out there. Why a Copy of # 1 of the 1990 series can be more desired than MP 3? Because Its considered their 1st series, and when people look for guardians of the galaxy, it gets more hits that most other books.

I recently purchased 3 copies of MP 3 from an online retailer for $8 each in around 7.0. Meanwhile VF copies of the 1st series were for sale at $10+ on this same site. Shame.

Batman 609 will be the book to get if Hush gets hot. First apperance or not, it's the book that will be able to be chased, so thats the book collectors will gravitate towards. Maybe 619 to some extent, but thats just the " Hush" name.

You can go in circles all you want fellas, you are all right, and all wrong. It's a personal opinion ( do you follow websters or not? )

Even when you follow traditional comic book guidlines ( being in the story ) Which book is " chosen" can be confusing.

Darkseid, Red Sonja, Ultron all confuse me and there are tons more.

The fact is, if the character is important, all of these early appearances are important. Collect what you want to.

I remember Spawn had a countdown that sped up whenever he used his powers back in the day.

 

Did they write that out of the storyline?

I'm guessing they had too, but I always thought that was a cool element to the plot.

I always wondered this as well. I stopped reading at issue 17 when they had the distribution problems.

I recall Mcfarlane saying he wanted Spawn to run like Cerebus, a full begining and ending, and then thats it, no more.