Logan510

I get it, all his faces look the same...except when they don't.

Yep, all the same.

8 hours ago, 500Club said:

Almost.  In the case of comic book art, there are a few artistic concepts that verge on fact.  Construction and use of two point perspective, three point perspective and vanishing points tend to be pretty concrete and geometrical, as does human anatomy.  In fact, as a Byrne voter, I do agree that his rendering of female faces is limited, and based on evidence, this is more than just opinion.

Also, there's been no discussion about using 'facts' or 'models' to prove one artist is better than another.  This really only came up with the suggestion that Byrne has an issue with perspective. 

You're debating with a guy who says art is opinion, but started a thread with the question about who is better...yet saying it can't be quantified.

Not to mention that a lot of his "opinions" can be proven wrong.

For example, perspective is either correct or it isn't, there is no "feeling" about it.

To be honest, not a truly fair comparison because most of the time they weren't designing their own covers.

I think I prefer Perez's covers just a bit more though and when he designs his own they're generally outstanding 

2 hours ago, 500Club said:

That's fair.

I'm not looking to go too far with this, as overall, I agree with you that art, and the enjoyment of it is subjective and the majority of it is opinion. 

Interestingly, in terms of the above, I find Byrne's use of perspective far better that the average of the era, and Perez' anatomy far better than the average of the era. 

I personally dislike arguments like this...if it's all "opinion" (and remember, opinions can't be wrong! ) as some would have us believe than how do we quantify who is "better"?

Is it popularity? Is it sales? We've already been told "Liefeld"...so there goes that.

Is it eye test? There goes that pesky opinion thing again.

4 minutes ago, kav said:

Opinions are not in the realm of correct/incorrect.  If I say beets are gross and someone else likes them, neither of us is 'correct'.  
As far as insulting, facepalm is usually considered insulting as it suggests the person is woefully dumb.  Fanboy is also generally not considered a compliment.

Uninformed opinions can be incorrect. Your analogy doesn't hold water, we're not discussing if beets are gross, you're spouting incorrect information on technical aspects of his work.

I'm not going to provide examples because I'm about done caring anymore to discuss this with you.

Have a nice day.

1 hour ago, batman_fan said:

Now i feel embarrassed to own this page and even more embarrassed that I paid money for it.

Very 2D and sideways.

I'll take it off your hands to help out a fellow boardie if you're that embarrassed 

10 hours ago, Electricmastro said:

Neal Adams was about 18 years old when he contributed to his first published superhero comic book: the bottom panel of this page from Adventures of The Fly #4 (January 1960, Archie Comics)

What a hack.

2 hours ago, kav said:

You would lose this bet.  I read all his FF stuff when they came out and was a big fan.  I've read most of his X Men stuff when it came out.  The Champions was also a favorite-I still to this day wonder if the giant growing alien thing will ever contract and destroy the universe.  There's no need to be insulting-I havent insulted you.  I have my opinion, and I am allowed to have it.  That it doesnt coincide with yours is nothing to blow one's top over.

Opinions are not always correct.

If you took what I said as insulting my apologies.

I'm insulted when people parrot misinformation, though I don't require an apology for that 

Just now, 500Club said:

Is Neal that old?  Those blue shirts keep him looking much younger.

Sadly, fine motor and dexterity go with age, along with the eyesight you mentioned.

Neal was born June 15th 1941 so I cheated him, he's almost 79...mea culpa

1 minute ago, 500Club said:

Yeah, both of these are patently false.  Perspective in the opening panel of X-Men 133 and the cover of 137 looks pretty good to me, as does the backgrounding.

Also, it’s to be kept in mind that at his peak, Byrne could do 2-3 books and multiple covers a month with minimal drop off in quality.

I would bet money he's hardly ever read his work. I could show literally hundreds of examples of perspective shots and detailed backgrounds, but it probably wouldn't stop him from repeating some of the same fanboy mantras I've been hearing since the early 1980's.

2 minutes ago, 500Club said:

If you want rough examples of Byrne’s art, you look to the later points of his career.

If you want rough examples of Perez’ art, you look to the earlier points of his career.

You may be the only one who thinks one blows the other ‘outta the water’.

To be fair some of Perez's later work has suffered a little...and I don't hold it against him, he's had a score of health issues that affected his eyesight.

Byrne is almost 70 years old and the stuff he's doing on his X-Men fanfic is some of the best work he's done IMHO.

I find it amusing when people criticize Neal Adams too... the guy is almost 80 (!) and he goes to cons, still draws his buns off and has more energy and vibrancy than people half his age.

I wonder if one of the guys who liked my post where I mentioned the spread of ignorance in this thread knew who I was talking about? 

1 hour ago, kav said:

A good read abt perez's coming to Marvel is "Spotlight on George Perez" a magazine I have somewhere and cannot find anywhere online not even a pic.  It details how he drew as a young man if I remember correctly with a flair pen because he 'figured thats what the perfessionals use' and how he got his first job at marvel.  There was some concern abt his backgrounds so he did this White Tiger splash to show he could do detailed backgrounds.

You can't even get that right.

It's called Focus on George Perez and he talks about how his editor at the time ( Marv Wolfman ) was constantly critiquing his work, saying he couldn't do perspective well, etc and so Perez did this Eisneresque shot that..as he put it "shut Marv up"...said with tongue in cheek.

Just now, kav said:

To be clear I am not saying byrne sucks.  I think he's great.  I just think Perez blows him outta the water.  And that it is easy to cherry pick Byrne but difficult to do so for Perez.

I don't agree with your assessment, though the funny thing is if you asked Byrne who was better, he would say Perez.

I'll never debate someone's taste in art as that is subjective, but I will debate the technical aspects, especially if they're inaccurate.

But not with you, you should know better. Shame.

1 minute ago, kav said:

 Success does not equal greatness.  Liefeld.  
But thx for stoppin by.

I'm not getting dragged into a silly debate with one of the people who "should" know better but doesn't.

I could cherry pick some examples of Perez's work that don't shine as brightly, but I love his work so I'm not going to lower myself to denigrate him.

Not everyone hits a home run every time, you should know that.

What I've learned from this thread:

Byrne only draws two faces, Byrne is a 2D artist who's not very good at perspective, Byrne skimps on backgrounds.

Byrne is a cartoony artist who is also a realistic artist ( wha?)

It's a wonder the man had any success at all.

Both artists are in my top 5. To me it’s a coin flip...a preference. Some of the ignorance spread in this thread is ridiculous though.

On 4/4/2020 at 7:34 PM, wombat said:

This should be unacceptable. Plenty of terrible excuses why the sale was pulled, but nothing valid.

I disagree.

If what the seller states is true...that the buyer wanted it shipped to a different address than was on his PayPal account ( 1st red flag ), then said, ship it there anyway, it's only a few blocks from where I live now ( 2nd red flag ), I would've cancelled the deal too. How hard is it as the buyer to edit his PayPal profile to put his new address? I've moved a few times since I started using PayPal and I never has an issue with changing my shipping address.

For a $10 book, I probably would've sent it, but for a $1700 book? No way, no how.

On 5/1/2020 at 3:35 PM, CCComics said:

Nearly 1.25 million people are killed in car accidents each year. That means, on average, auto accidents cause 3,287 deaths per day. An additional 20-50 million people are injured or disabled.

 

Where the outrage in this? Why in heavens name are we even able to drive these death traps? I feel government should shut down all roads until we get a handle on this. The automobile industry should be held account for not acting on this fast enough.

Would you feel any better if they were pushed out of windows?

Yes, I can do convoluted logic too.

Not all 9.8's are created equal.

Were you able to see pictures of the book before your purchased it? In the future always ask for pictures and if they're not great pictures, ask for better ones, the worst they can do is say no.

If you're not happy with it and the money isn't a big deal, sell it and look for a copy that'll make you happier.

1 hour ago, StingerMcK said:

If Heroes happens, it would be a tight timeline, even assuming Phase 1 starts May 8th

 

That's good information that I was not aware of, thank you.

It really feels like Shelton is going to wait until the last minute to see if Heroes can happen. Is that an incorrect assumption on my part?