seanfingh

There is no way that PIF wildly_fanciful_statement belongs in the Probation Thread. If the PIF donkeys can't keep their junk trading escapades straight, they should start their own PIF Probation. That was kinda 'backlashy', i'm sure there are also other ways to describe it. I stand by it completely. Junk swapping misfortunes can stay in the PIF playpen. , junk swapping. Just off the top of my head, people have given away an entire 10 volume set of Sandman, a Wolverine Omnibus, Multiple 9.8 graded books, among other really quality items. I don't know why you even need to have an opinion, and a ton of hostility, towards something that you don't participate in and as such have absolutely nothing to do with you. It's though as if you are being confrontational for the sake of confrontation. I don't have any hostility. I just think it is stupid. I've been pretty clear about it from the get go. I get to have an opinion because this is a message board, and it is not governed by junk swapping group-think donkeys. Mucking with the PL has to do with everyone. Stick around, you may get it someday.

There is no way that PIF wildly_fanciful_statement belongs in the Probation Thread. If the PIF donkeys can't keep their junk trading escapades straight, they should start their own PIF Probation. That was kinda 'backlashy', i'm sure there are also other ways to describe it. I stand by it completely. Junk swapping misfortunes can stay in the PIF playpen.

I was going to make this exact point. I'd be surprised if there was as much backlash against putting someone on the PL in those circumstances. Don't know whether it's ever been proposed. How has there been backlash? The only issue is PL or separate PIF PL. I support the latter based upon the murky nature of the "transaction." Others believe it is in the best interests of the community to have bad agents put in the PL as a warning. Both arguments are logical and have their own merits.

He paid $12 AND his mylars that he sent out. Quick rehash: Very general rules of PIF: There's only 1 item up in the thread at one time, its posted by the person who claimed the previous item. When the item you post is claimed you send it to that person. Specifics of this case: 1. There was an item available, a specific comic (or group of comics). Someone with the name "BathedinFlames" claimed that item publicly in the thread. 2. Per the rules of PIF, BathedinFlames then proceeded to offer up 5 Spider-Man books for someone to claim. 3. Manicnerd claimed those books from bathedinflames. 4. Bathedinflames RECIEVED the books he claimed. 5. Manicnerd posted some mylars as his posted offer. 6. Someone else claimed the mylars that Manicnerd posted. 7. Manicnerd not only sent that person the mylars (shipping included), but they were recieved. BathedinFlames NEVER SENT the 5 spideys to Manicnerd. SO to summarize, someone sent some books to bathedinflames under the expectation that bathedflames would send books to the next claimer (who turned out to be manicnerd). AND manicnerd sent some mylars out to the next claimer after him under the expectation that bathedinflames would send him some comics. So bathedinflames BROKE his word to TWO different boardies, and still owes manicnerd some spideys. That's the gist. Manicnerd should have gotten the books more than a month ago, and has given 3 day notice to bathedinflames. He wants to put him on the PL. There are some members, who are unclear or against putting him on the PL here, stating that bathedinflames might be more suited to a specific PIF PL. There are those (myself included) that while not every PIF issue is a PL issue, this seems like a pretty obvious case where the PL should be utilized Not that it matters but I sent 75 4mil mylar archives and 3 TPBs I've tried contacting BathedinFlames 3 times since Aug. 2nd and gave a 3 day notice that I would be trying to add him to this list (didn't think it would be so difficult). I know it must be terribly frustrating since you did the right thing and he deserves a chartreuse D tatooed on his forehead, but if he's disappeared, chances are you will never receive the compensation you deserve. Since you never got your items, couldn't you ask to have a free future pick? That won't work because they do a 1 for 1 put up and ship. If he takes something, there won't be anyone to put something up. Plus, he did his deal based solely upon claiming the relatively sweet offering of early Spideys.

That poll pretty much sucks it anyway. The only things that have really been suggested are (1) Regular PL and (2) New PIF PL. So, to reiterate, that poll sucks it.

People have gotten stiffed. That and the delayed shipping (and the constant crying about delayed shipping) are why I won't do that deal any more.

How does having a separate area for PIF offenders fail to do that?

If they drag in complaints of "my offer was better than yours," then yes. That isn't the case in the situation ManicNerd brings up. We are dealing with someone that possibly took advantage of our community by taking something for free and not fulfilling the obligation he claimed he would by sending out his offer. No bias, just the facts, ma'am. -slym Right, but we have to weigh making wholesale changes on the totality of the circumstances, not the facts of this one instance. Bad facts make bad law.

My opinion has been colored by the fact that I think the PIF is stupid. I also am glad I understand it better now.

Just think of it like an ongoing trade thread, where only 1 thing (comic/lot/set/toy/etc) is available at a time. So I claim the 'prize', I put up something new. After its claimed, the claimer puts up something new to be claimed. After that's claimed, the new claimer puts up something new to be claimed, and so on and so forth. These are business transactions, albeit often frivolous with wildly varying values. But by claiming and receiving something, you are agreeing to post something new to be claimed and send it out. People who don't do it have committed fraud by not completing a trade. If the OP in this case just claimed one to be made whole and didn't send out another one, the thread would die. I get this. I still would prefer a separate PIF banned list. And I have been shouted down by the throng before, so this is just one man, one vote. Why start a separate PIF banned list when the probation list already includes e-bay transactions that had nothing to do with the boards, other than board members were involved. The PIF makes more sense being included in the probation list than e-bay deals gone bad, does it not? The "transaction" took place wholly on the boards, unlike some of the other deals gone bad where the offender ended up on the PL. Because the whole PIF thing is a complete grey area. Are you obligated to offer? Under what compulsion? Is it really an obligation or is it a social construct (i.e. permissive). One thing is clear - You have violated the terms of the PIF if you screw the other party. Thus, my belief that it should be a separate list. And in this specific instance, I find the shipping $$ to be damning, beyond what I have just laid out. So, under your line of thinking, any transaction that involves trading item for item, instead of item for money should not be included within the PL, but rather under a new "trade probation list?" Not at all. A trade is clear. It is an enforceable agreement, with explicit terms. I give you this. You give me that. The legal system has been taking care of these type of disputes for centuries. I offer something which is claimed by someone else, prompting them to in turn offer something to be claimed by someone else, yet, is not seen very often. Hence, grey area.

I haven't been convinced that there has been a breach of an enforceable contract. That is where I am coming from. You will make far more hay with the fact that you sent him $15 for shipping and he never did anything. That, in this specific instance, is a game changer, for me. In general, PIF deals are still problematic.

Just think of it like an ongoing trade thread, where only 1 thing (comic/lot/set/toy/etc) is available at a time. So I claim the 'prize', I put up something new. After its claimed, the claimer puts up something new to be claimed. After that's claimed, the new claimer puts up something new to be claimed, and so on and so forth. These are business transactions, albeit often frivolous with wildly varying values. But by claiming and receiving something, you are agreeing to post something new to be claimed and send it out. People who don't do it have committed fraud by not completing a trade. If the OP in this case just claimed one to be made whole and didn't send out another one, the thread would die. I get this. I still would prefer a separate PIF banned list. And I have been shouted down by the throng before, so this is just one man, one vote. Why start a separate PIF banned list when the probation list already includes e-bay transactions that had nothing to do with the boards, other than board members were involved. The PIF makes more sense being included in the probation list than e-bay deals gone bad, does it not? The "transaction" took place wholly on the boards, unlike some of the other deals gone bad where the offender ended up on the PL. Because the whole PIF thing is a complete grey area. Are you obligated to offer? Under what compulsion? Is it really an obligation or is it a social construct (i.e. permissive). One thing is clear - You have violated the terms of the PIF if you screw the other party. Thus, my belief that it should be a separate list. And in this specific instance, I find the shipping $$ to be damning, beyond what I have just laid out.

There is no way that PIF wildly_fanciful_statement belongs in the Probation Thread. If the PIF donkeys can't keep their junk trading escapades straight, they should start their own PIF Probation. So let me get this straight. If someone comes in the PIF thread and steals from another member, you don't want the thief put on the probation thread? You'd rather risk that same thief coming and stealing later in real money transactions? Yep that's a good idea. You can characterize it as theft all you want, that doesn't make it so. call it whatever you want. would you want to send a person who didn't fulfill their PIF obligation a bunch of money in the hopes that they send you the books they agreed to send you? that's what this boils down to. i wouldn't. I don't know, maybe. I understand the process better now, and feel like Manicnerd got piped, because he put his offer out there solely based upon his claim of the Spideys. I don't understand your point, which leads me to believe that you don't understand how the PIF thread works. But that doesn't really matter. What matters is a forum member had an obligation to send another member some books and they didn't fulfill that obligation. I don't see what anything else has to do with it. That person is of poor character and I wouldn't want to deal with them in the future, so I see no reason not to put them on the PL. I mean, if you go to get a bank loan for a mortgage, but you don't pay your car payment, the bank doesn't say to themselves, "Ya he didn't pay that car payment but we don't know how he'll do on a mortgage payment, lets go ahead and give him the benefit of the doubt and give him the loan". I think I have learned more about it from the people posting here. Again, put the world on alert, just do it in a separate thread.

Just think of it like an ongoing trade thread, where only 1 thing (comic/lot/set/toy/etc) is available at a time. So I claim the 'prize', I put up something new. After its claimed, the claimer puts up something new to be claimed. After that's claimed, the new claimer puts up something new to be claimed, and so on and so forth. These are business transactions, albeit often frivolous with wildly varying values. But by claiming and receiving something, you are agreeing to post something new to be claimed and send it out. People who don't do it have committed fraud by not completing a trade. If the OP in this case just claimed one to be made whole and didn't send out another one, the thread would die. I get this. I still would prefer a separate PIF banned list. And I have been shouted down by the throng before, so this is just one man, one vote.

If that is true, the dude keeping that $15 comes a lot closer to theft than the rest of it.

There is no way that PIF wildly_fanciful_statement belongs in the Probation Thread. If the PIF donkeys can't keep their junk trading escapades straight, they should start their own PIF Probation. So let me get this straight. If someone comes in the PIF thread and steals from another member, you don't want the thief put on the probation thread? You'd rather risk that same thief coming and stealing later in real money transactions? Yep that's a good idea. You can characterize it as theft all you want, that doesn't make it so. call it whatever you want. would you want to send a person who didn't fulfill their PIF obligation a bunch of money in the hopes that they send you the books they agreed to send you? that's what this boils down to. i wouldn't. I don't know, maybe. I understand the process better now, and feel like Manicnerd got piped, because he put his offer out there solely based upon his claim of the Spideys.

This was my understanding as well, but the problem is that the only thing that induced Manicnerd to offer his stuff was the fact that he thought he was going to get that specific bunch of Spideys. It is a bad deal for him.

There is no way that PIF wildly_fanciful_statement belongs in the Probation Thread. If the PIF donkeys can't keep their junk trading escapades straight, they should start their own PIF Probation. So let me get this straight. If someone comes in the PIF thread and steals from another member, you don't want the thief put on the probation thread? You'd rather risk that same thief coming and stealing later in real money transactions? Yep that's a good idea. You can characterize it as theft all you want, that doesn't make it so.

Person A offers something, person B claims it and then must offer something, person C then claims person B's offer and now must offer something. There is only 1 offer at a time and the person that takes must then offer something up. BathedinFlames took an offer (a bunch of Green Lanterns) and then posted an offer. I claimed it and then posted my offer. I sent my offer out (paid shipping - $11.80) and received nothing from BathedinFlames. I think I understand it a little better now. There is more of a quid pro quo than I thought there was. I still don't think it belongs in the PL. Have your own PIF banned list.

Rule 1d states "A Transaction between board members is not confined to the CGC Message Boards. Any transaction between forum members, regardless of the venue, is eligible for inclusion in the PL." I agree - this meets the definition of a transaction, any way you slice it...manicnerd gave up something of value (i.e., his PIF offer), plus paid shipping costs, I'm thinking. What's more, this transaction DID occur on the boards (although not technically a requirement, as pointed out in the rules). If you don't like the PIF vibe, that's one thing...but given that it exists, this was a transaction. How has the complainer been damaged? They can skip the "offender" and go right to the next selection. I claimed a PIF of 5 spidey comics (2 early ASMs) and then sent out 75 mylar archives and 3 tpbs plus shipping. The offer I claimed never arrived. And thanks for calling me a "complainer". What are you, if not a complainer? It's not like I called you a whiny . True or false - You can claim whatever you want and skip the "offender." False. Explain why.

Good point...although, based on the thread, looks like manicnerd paid for shipping. Seems like it's more about the point of the matter...there's a board member who didn't hold up his end of a deal, so wouldn't we want that person officially on the list - that would be in all of our interests, right? PIF has been a trainwreck on several occasions. All I am suggesting is that they handle their own business there, and not gum up the real PL.

Rule 1d states "A Transaction between board members is not confined to the CGC Message Boards. Any transaction between forum members, regardless of the venue, is eligible for inclusion in the PL." I agree - this meets the definition of a transaction, any way you slice it...manicnerd gave up something of value (i.e., his PIF offer), plus paid shipping costs, I'm thinking. What's more, this transaction DID occur on the boards (although not technically a requirement, as pointed out in the rules). If you don't like the PIF vibe, that's one thing...but given that it exists, this was a transaction. How has the complainer been damaged? They can skip the "offender" and go right to the next selection. I claimed a PIF of 5 spidey comics (2 early ASMs) and then sent out 75 mylar archives and 3 tpbs plus shipping. The offer I claimed never arrived. And thanks for calling me a "complainer". What are you, if not a complainer? It's not like I called you a whiny . True or false - You can claim whatever you want and skip the "offender."

Rule 1d states "A Transaction between board members is not confined to the CGC Message Boards. Any transaction between forum members, regardless of the venue, is eligible for inclusion in the PL." I agree - this meets the definition of a transaction, any way you slice it...manicnerd gave up something of value (i.e., his PIF offer), plus paid shipping costs, I'm thinking. What's more, this transaction DID occur on the boards (although not technically a requirement, as pointed out in the rules). If you don't like the PIF vibe, that's one thing...but given that it exists, this was a transaction. How has the complainer been damaged? They can skip the "offender" and go right to the next selection.

Rule 1d states "A Transaction between board members is not confined to the CGC Message Boards. Any transaction between forum members, regardless of the venue, is eligible for inclusion in the PL." Right. And you are trying to gig someone for not owning up to some random junk swapping deal. No one paid ANYTHING for ANYTHING. No one got ripped off. No one failed to do anything that is actionable in any civilized society. If you want to ostracize him for the PIF community do it. But there is no way that failing to deliver stuff that no one paid for is appropriate for the PL. That is like putting the dumpster you dove in for remaindered comics on probation because there were coffee grounds on them.

There is no way that PIF wildly_fanciful_statement belongs in the Probation Thread. If the PIF donkeys can't keep their junk trading escapades straight, they should start their own PIF Probation.